Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[BobRyan]

You have supplied at least some evidence (thank you) that the ignatius quote is fraudulant but it is not convincing. I would have to examine who it is that is making these claims. For example, how do I know that your sources are not simply men who are like you, driven to deem that the Lord's day is the sabbath and unwilling to admit a text that divides the lord's day from the sabbath?

If they are like me in not wanting to ignore Bible text that conflict with man-made tradition - I would not blame them for exposing inconvenient details in forged documents. As noted ignatus has been used as target for a wide number of forged documents. The idea that only Sabbath keeping Christians "would notice" is a bit far fetched.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
2. And you never show how this quote - even if the added/inserted "Lord's Day" text is accepted - proves that the Lord's Day was not given by God in the OT just as even Pope John Paul II and Leo Trese's "The Faith Explained" both admit.

I have replied to all of this.

Details matter - provide the link explaining how your statement from ignatius would have deleted Pope John Paul II's claim about the Lord's Day being in the OT just as we see in Is 58:13.

 

[Meowzltov]

If they are like me in not wanting to ignore Bible text that conflict with man-made tradition - I would not blame them for exposing inconvenient details in forged documents. As noted ignatus has been used as target for a wide number of forged documents. The idea that only Sabbath keeping Christians "would notice" is a bit far fetched.

You don't understand what I'm saying, or simply misrepresenting it. I'm saying that if a person is unduly distressed by the idea of the sabbath and the Lord's day being seperated, they may imagine that a document has been tampered with, etc.

 

[Meowzltov]

Details matter - provide the link explaining how your statement from ignatius would have deleted Pope John Paul II's claim about the Lord's Day being in the OT just as we see in Is 58:13.

Go back and read what I've written to you. I replied on multiple occasions. I refuse to keep replying to the same stuff. You are simply pounding sand.

 

[BobRyan]

Go back and read what I've written to you. I replied on multiple occasions..



That was pretty easy.

For you it would have been even easier -- posting the link that proved it.

 

[BobRyan]

You don't understand what I'm saying, or simply misrepresenting it. I'm saying that if a person is unduly distressed by the idea of the sabbath and the Lord's day being seperated, they may imagine that a document has been tampered with, etc.

Someone might imagine that they would do such a thing -- but what is more true in "real life" is that most Sabbath keeping Christians are aware that there are Sunday keeping christians calling week-day-1 the "Lord's Day".

It would be much harder to "imagine" that these Sabbath keeping Christians posting over and over again on these threads did not point that fact out --- numerous times.

 

[Meowzltov]

Go back and read what I've written to you. I replied on multiple occasions..

Bob, I replied to each and every thing you said, and rather than address my replies, all you did was repeat your original assertions. It took a zillion posts of head pounding just to get you to quote and cite your sources.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I replied to each and every thing you said, and rather than address my replies, all you did was repeat your original assertions. It took a zillion posts of head pounding just to get you to quote and cite your sources.

Just not in "real life"

In "real life" my sources that I gave you - are on page one of this thread.

And they are usually on page one of most of my own threads.

Meanwhile I think we can go "quite a while" here with you reminding us that you have at some place, somewhere explained how your own Ignatius quote - affects in any way the argument that your own Pope John Paul II makes about the Lord's Day being in the OT - Sabbath, Saturday prior to being edited by the RCC supposedly to week day 1 in the NT. (And yet - never actually bringing yourself to post the actual link to such an accomplishment on your part).

Or... you may simply be waiting for the right moment to post that link to backup your oft repeated claim.

 

[Meowzltov]

(And yet - never actually bringing yourself to post the actual link to such an accomplishment on your part)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday

 

[BobRyan]

As expected - nothing in that link addresses Pope John Paul II's claim that the Lord's Day in the Bible is Saturday and was edited/changed by some traditions of man - after the cross - to then point to week-day-1. It does not show Ignatius addressing that point at all.

What is more "instructive" is that you did not link to any actual post of yours - to me on this thread where you explain how something in Ignatius' supposed statement addresses that point made by your own Pope John Paul II.

 

[Meowzltov]

As expected - nothing in that link addresses Pope John Paul II's claim that the Lord's Day in the Bible is Saturday and was edited/changed by some traditions of man - after the cross - to then point to week-day-1.

I have replied to this.

 

[BobRyan]

I have replied to everything - the challenge is to show it in real life.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting how this subject keeps coming up.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but I would like some help with a deep theological question I have. In a Bible Study lesson I am taking, which I will just get right to it, claims that Satan's decepiton is the Sunday Worship. Clearly I am very sceptical about this and would like any answers on this particular subject. I have gone to another source and both of them seem to be against each other.

So is there any truth to these claims?

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

 

[Meowzltov]

Interesting how this subject keeps coming up.

The Lord's day was never Saturday. Your commentaries and summaries are *almost* but not quite right. People make mistakes.

 

[heatedmonk]

Here is an intelligent, short and to the point video about Sunday worship's origin.

I do not succumb to Catholic beliefs and practices. I do my best to report historical truths. My goal is to present that the foundational day of worship was established on biblical arguments made thousands of years ago.

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Catholic Church has never denied that it transferred the solemnity of the sabbath to the Lord's Day (sunday). This is not the same as saying that Sunday is the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church has never denied that it transferred the solemnity of the sabbath to the Lord's Day (sunday).

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[BobRyan]

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

You have argued that in your view as a Catholic these two Catholic sources are wrong and you are right.

You are free to do that.

 

[BobRyan]

However these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

 

[heatedmonk]

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The list of the 10 commandments and the first four pertain to how God expects to be treated by us.
When did he edit the 4th commandment in his own words? God said....remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

Think about that. Think about an argument that can say they don't observe the Sabbath day, Saturday, but they do agree the day to honor God was moved to Sunday. And that they observe.
But that is not the Sabbath day God commanded to keep holy.