The origins of atheism

[Loudmouth]

God tries to reveal himself to you, but is not willing to control your will to accept Him.

I guess that is why my parents hid from me their entire lives so I wouldn't know that they exist. Hold on, that didn't happen. My parents made their existence known my entire life time, and yet they don't control my life. Hmmm, interesting. My parents have even made the rather big claim that they created me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We do know the presence of God, we continue to get to know him better. Faith is the beginning of getting to know God.

I realize that Atheists have many in their ranks that were former believers. It's not surprising, Lucifer was a former believer, then he took himself too seriously and rebelled. A lot of former believers think their way right our of faith for various reasons. In nature not every member of the litter survives, not every acorn becomes a tree, not every child of God survives the trials of the first world. It really is entirely the choice of the individual.

That's an interesting description of how a believer becomes an atheist...you said that they "think their way out of faith". I believe that's probably an apt description...but you're not addressing the right point...

It's not unreasonable to expect that some of these atheists who were former believers also believed that they "knew" god or "communicated" with him. What do you suppose they make of those experiences now? How do you suppose they explain them?

Seems pretty relevant to the point I was making.

 

[HitchSlap]

Sharing.

No offense, but all you've shared are broken syllogisms and nonsense. How does that help anyone?

 

[Loudmouth]

That's an interesting description of how a believer becomes an atheist...you said that they "think their way out of faith". I believe that's probably an apt description...but you're not addressing the right point...

It's not unreasonable to expect that some of these atheists who were former believers also believed that they "knew" god or "communicated" with him. What do you suppose they make of those experiences now? How do you suppose they explain them?

Seems pretty relevant to the point I was making.

It would seem that one would have to think their way into faith before they would have to think their way out. If I were to describe my process of thinking my way out of faith, it would be one of tracing the footsteps I took to get into faith to begin with.

 

[ScottA]

Can you point to a single person who was born with the knowledge of christian theology? From what I have seen, people have to taught theology. That is indoctrination.



If we were to destroy all books, all knowledge, and all memory, would christianity be rediscovered? We could rediscover all of the knowledge we have gained in biology, astronomy, geology, physics, but what about religion? Not so much.



I am not aware of a single isolated civilization who discovered christianity all on their own. Are you aware of one?

There is only one civilization (humanity as a whole)...and no, it did not "discover" Christianity. That is not at all what is at work here. You are obviously observing from the outside in, and you have read it entirely wrong.

Christianity came about by a series of events given by God to humanity. It has been a revelation over thousands of years that does not tell all until the end, or until you come into the knowledge by being born of the spirit of God. By that same process, the physical world is dying, while the spirit kingdom is growing.

 

[Chriliman]

This sounds like a way God should confirm existence. Surely an omnipotent God has a way to confirm his or her's existence in a verifiable and undeniable way. Instead this alleged God seems to need to work through other people, which an omniscient being would know is not an acceptable way of confirming existence to some people. If the claims are true and this God is all powerful, then why does this God need people to defend him? Surely he can defend himself right? So why doesn't he do it? Either he can't or doesn't care to.

Mark 13:26
"At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory."

I'd have to ask myself and you should ask yourself this too "What is more likely? That the laws of nature have been suspended in my favor and in a way that I approve or have I made a mistake?"

I'm not claiming the laws of nature have been suspended in any way. The better question is, why and how are laws of nature even in existence? Or is this too difficult for science to answer?

There are people who believe in God's that you don't that claim a personal experience to confirm their beliefs. Which one of you has it right? You can't both me right.....you both could be wrong though.

Give me some time with them and I'm sure they may begin to reconsider the god they believe in.

First question i'd ask is "Which one are you?"

He'd say something to the effect of "You knew all along who I am because I told you I am the way and the truth and the life. Because of your denial you will be separated from My life giving power forever."

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

It's possible that there is a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my back yard. Is it reasonable for me to believe it exists? Would it be rational for me to dig in my back yard every day looking for it? This diamond gives my life so much meaning and I don't want to live in a world where there isn't a diamond buried in my back yard. Am I being reasonable because it's possible or am I delusional?

No one is claiming this diamond the size of a refrigerator is eternal and infinite and capable of creating the heavens and the earth.

 

[Loudmouth]

There is only one civilization (humanity as a whole)...and no, it did not "discover" Christianity. That is not at all what is at work here. You are obviously observing from the outside in, and you have read it entirely wrong.

From the outside, you can see the entire thing. That's the best place to be to read what is going on.

Christianity came about by a series of events given by God to humanity. It has been a revelation over thousands of years that does not tell all until the end, or until you come into the knowledge by being born of the spirit of God. By that same process, the physical world is dying, while the spirit kingdom is growing.

So why didn't this revelation happen anywhere else?

 

[ScottA]

No offense, but all you've shared are broken syllogisms and nonsense. How does that help anyone?

Your definition of "nonsense" describes the limits of the animal kingdom. I eat animals. As for humanity, there is a higher criteria for advancement. One must be willing to advance from a physical existence to a spiritual existence. Your choice.

 

[HitchSlap]

Your definition of "nonsense" describes the limits of the animal kingdom. I eat animals. As for humanity, there is a higher criteria for advancement. One must be willing to advance for a physical existence to a spiritual existence. Your choice.

I choose to advance.

 

[ScottA]

So why didn't this revelation happen anywhere else?

As I said, there is only one civilization...and that is where it happened. There is nowhere else.

If you mean, why didn't it happen in certain tribes and regions...then, the answer is that history has accounted for all tribes and regions. But also, the gift of eternal [spiritual] life was not given to all, but to the chosen of Him who created all people. That means some receive only the gift of physical life, and some receive both physical life and spiritual life.

 

[ScottA]

I choose to advance.

Advancement means different things: Advancing the natural human species means going as far as humanly possible. But advancing the species was intended to go beyond those limits, to know no limit, to be free from the captivity of human frailty and decay, to win out over evil. And it has. One should not want to miss out.

 

[Chriliman]

I guess that is why my parents hid from me their entire lives so I wouldn't know that they exist. Hold on, that didn't happen. My parents made their existence known my entire life time, and yet they don't control my life. Hmmm, interesting. My parents have even made the rather big claim that they created me.

If you still think God exists in the physical realm then you haven't learned anything here. Are you here to learn or just ridicule our beliefs?

God is a spiritual being making himself known to His children by way of spiritual communication through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, you still get the demo. You are living it.

Assuming for a moment that the world, universe, nature or however you want to say it was evidence of creation (and to be clear, I don't think it is...how is it evidence for a particular creator?

In other words, why is it evidence of the christian god and not one of the Hindu ones? Why not one of the Greek gods? Why not Allah?

Why isn't it evidence for a completely material creator? Maybe some super-advanced alien culture who creates universes and life for the fun of it?

 

[HitchSlap]

Advancement means different things: Advancing the natural human species means going as far as humanly possible. But advancing the species was intended to go beyond those limits, to know no limit, to be free from the captivity of human frailty and decay, to win out over evil. And it has. One should not want to miss out.

Sounds good. Sign me up.

 

[anonymous person]

From the outside, you can see the entire thing. That's the best place to be to read what is going on.

Standing outside and looking through a dim and stained glass in on Christianity is not the best place to be if one wants to see it for what it is.

Would you buy a Rolex watch for a loved one after only having seen it through such a glass window?

No.

You would go in and look at it close up and for yourself, without the obstruction of the dim and stained glass.

So why didn't this revelation happen anywhere else?

Maybe because the revelation is obscured from your sight by virtue of you looking at from what you perceive to be your privileged position, which is actually just you looking at it through the darkened lens of your carnal mind and heart.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's not unreasonable to expect that some of these atheists who were former believers also believed that they "knew" god or "communicated" with him. What do you suppose they make of those experiences now? How do you suppose they explain them?

What's interesting is that, for the same reason two people in love get married, they get divorced.

Those little "quirks" that one thought were so "cute" in his/her mate, now become an irritation after the wedding.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It would seem that one would have to think their way into faith before they would have to think their way out. If I were to describe my process of thinking my way out of faith, it would be one of tracing the footsteps I took to get into faith to begin with.

Fascinating...did you ever communicate with god? Ever experience god in any way?

If so, what do you make of those experiences now?

 

[Ana the Ist]

What's interesting is that, for the same reason two people in love get married, they get divorced.

Those little "quirks" that one thought were so "cute" in his/her mate, now become an irritation after the wedding.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here AV. Are you saying that the reason someone might stop believing in god are the same reasons that they started believing in god?

 

[David Colin Gould]

Fascinating...did you ever communicate with god? Ever experience god in any way?

If so, what do you make of those experiences now?

I am not Loudmouth, but when I was a Christian I communicated with and experienced God (Jesus, specifically). Indeed, Jesus spoke to me. Obviously, my current interpretation of those experiences is a little different now. I think that I was in fact talking to myself in the same way that we all have internal dialogues. If we are culturally conditioned to expect such a voice to be Jesus, and then we give it that name and treat it as if it is separate from us, guess what: it feels separate from us.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here AV.

When people worshipped God at one time, and reaped the benefits of that worship, how is it that suddenly they drop Him like a hot potato when science comes slithering into their theology?

Let me be very specific.

At the point one gets saved and experiences:

1. The joy of their salvation (Psalm 51:12).
2. A refreshment (Acts 3:19).
3. Various spiritual benefits (Hebrews 6:4-5).

How is it that later, they not only choose to deconvert -- but then rail against those very benefits?