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The origins of atheism

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Freodin

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A better term would have been demonstrate.

You being finite can't possibly demonstrate something that is eternal and infinite. Logically, only something that is eternal and infinite can demonstrate itself.
I didn't even attempt to demonstrate it. I only presented the rational conclusions that lead it it.

Incidentally this is what I've been saying from the beginning, I can't demonstrate God to you, only God can demonstrate Himself to you, but if you don't want Him to, He won't because He can't control your will to not want Him.
Hey, look... that is just what I have been saying from the beginning: I can't demonstrate Primal Chaos to you... but Primal Chaos can. Though it doesn't bother what you want or what you don't want... or what itself 'wants'.
Primal Chaos has been demonstrated to me. There is nothing I can do or you can do to get that demonstration... but you can admit that it is as rational an explanation as God is.
 
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Chriliman

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I didn't even attempt to demonstrate it. I only presented the rational conclusions that lead it it.


Hey, look... that is just what I have been saying from the beginning: I can't demonstrate Primal Chaos to you... but Primal Chaos can. Though it doesn't bother what you want or what you don't want... or what itself 'wants'.
Primal Chaos has been demonstrated to me. There is nothing I can do or you can do to get that demonstration... but you can admit that it is as rational an explanation as God is.

This argument of yours suggests that primal chaos is the reason for your existence. Are you saying primal chaos takes the form of being your god?
 
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Colter

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What doctrine? The essay begins by countering the misconception perpetuated by its detractors that humanism is "a doctrinaire collection of social goals justified by an arbitrary and dogmatic materialist-atheist worldview."

What bothers me is your continual misrepresentation of atheists.

What you call an "essay" is a statement of belief about the world, about the approach to life, to the world. If I were an Atheist or Humanist I would still call my worldview a belief about the world, about a Godless universe.
 
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Chriliman

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No. You still keep evaluating everything from your own worldview, and cannot accept anything different.

"God" or "god" or "deity" has a number of connotations... an identity that "reason for our existence" does not have. A deity can be the reason for our existence... the reason for our existence does not need to be a deity.

So, no. Primal Chaos is not my God. Primal Chaos not being God is how I know that "God" is not the reason for our existence.

(Note: I object the use of the term "reason" here... that's why I used "base" in my posts. I only used the term "reason" here to keep consistent with your post.)

So primal chaos isn't eternal and infinite? You've got me confused again.
 
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AirPo

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What you call an "essay" is a statement of belief about the world, about the approach to life, to the world. If I were an Atheist or Humanist I would still call my worldview a belief about the world, about a Godless universe.
Then you wouldn't be an atheist.
 
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Freodin

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So primal chaos isn't eternal and infinite? You've got me confused again.
Primal Chaos is eternal, because there is no time. It is infinite, because there aren't any boundaries.

But none of these descriptions really fit. The only fitting description you could make about Primal Chaos is that it is undescribable. ;)

As for your confusion: look into your own worldview. Eternal and infinite... is that ALL that God is?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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What you call an "essay" is a statement of belief about the world, about the approach to life, to the world. If I were an Atheist or Humanist I would still call my worldview a belief about the world, about a Godless universe.
I'm getting the impression that you didn't even read the essay, although you linked to it.
 
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AirPo

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You said this:Of the 108,000,000,000 people purported to ever have lived, who discovered how to survive?
Only the ones who are still alive. :D

If someone has discovered how to survive, then why did you say atheism is [still] concerned with how to survive?
But he didn't say atheism is concerned with how to survive.
 
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Chriliman

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Primal Chaos is eternal, because there is no time. It is infinite, because there aren't any boundaries.

So logically you came from primal chaos, or are you outside primal chaos?

But none of these descriptions really fit. The only fitting description you could make about Primal Chaos is that it is undescribable. ;)

Yet you just described it clearly and I understand what your saying, but you claim you didn't come from primal chaos which logically means you're outside of primal chaos.

As for your confusion: look into your own worldview. Eternal and infinite... is that ALL that God is?

My world view makes sense, apparently your's doesn't as I've pointed out above.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Nice try at denigrating the truth but it won't wash. Your cynicism is loud and clear as is you holier than thou attitude which I have heard before many times from atheists. The fact that you say you are not offended by the truth shows how little you know about the truth because a person who loves the truth is not an atheist. The bible says that the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Just imagine God's spirit telling us that he doesn't exist which is what atheists want us to believe is the truth.

You will have to do better than that if you want to convince anyone that you love the truth. In fact truth and atheist is an oxymoron.

I would love to know what truths I find unpleasant and which I have been hiding from for 60 years because I have no idea what you are talking about. Every day, I find out more and more about God and I can assure you that it is not unpleasant. In fact, knowing God gives meaning to life and makes life more abundant.

As for doubt in my faith and lack of conviction, in your dreams. If I have been a disciple of Jesus for 60 years, that doesn't sound like someone who has doubts and lacks conviction. No doubt you are clutching at straws to try and put one over me but you are wasting your time. I started debating atheists 25 years ago at university and when I left I continued on the net. Every encounter I have strengthens my faith because you very kindly show us that life without God is one long drawn out fight to sound and be relevant and you heap absurdity upon absurdity. The fact that only 2.1% of the population in my country are atheists is a clear indication that you are very irrelevant.

As for being jealous of you all I can say is Doh! Why would I be jealous of someone who has no future when I have an eternal future guaranteed to me by God? You are totally deceived if that is what you believe. And as for being scared of you, the word that comes to mind is delusional. I am not scared of anyone because Satan was defeated at Calvary so fear does not even enter the equation. What on earth makes you think that I am scared of someone who is deluded? That is not logical.

Logic dear boy, logic. If atheists claim to know everything as I was told on another forum by an atheist called Rob, then it stands to reason you would know how life began. if you don't then atheists do not know everything because that is the basis of all knowledge regarding creation. If they don't they should not go around the net saying they do. Don't blame me. Blame the atheists who made the claim.

Calling John McArthur a run of the mill preacher is another example of your cynical approach to life. You did not ask for the name of an atheist who knows everything. You asked for someone besides me who knows how life began. I gave you John MacArthur because he is a well know and respected theologian and he has written a book on how life began.

We both know he won't have the tiniest bit of evidence to back up his claim which you said is a statement that clearly shows you are not interested in the truth and do not know what it is. I do know because I have read his book on the subject so saying we both know is a lie of the first degree and a classic example of shooting from the lip which people who are wedded to the truth do not do.

And I would suggest you put your brain into gear before you take me on because your lack of knowledge of the truth puts you behind the eight ball.

Here is a quote for you from Malcolm Muggeridge an avowed atheist before he found out the truth......

‘I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.’

– Malcolm Muggeridge, well-known British journalist and philosopher—Pascal Lectures, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. From the Revised Quote Book, containing 130 quotable quotes on creation/evolution by leading authorities.

And here is one from J.S. Jones....

‘Palaeoanthropologists seem to make up for a lack of fossils with an excess of fury, and this must now be the only science in which it is still possible to become famous just by having an opinion. As one cynic says, in human palaeontology [the study of fossils] the consensus depends on who shouts loudest.’

J.S. Jones, Department of Genetics and Biometry, University College, London, in a book review. Nature, Vol. 345, May 31, 1990, p. 395.

‘No product, discovery, medical procedure, or advance has come out of evolutionary theory. Without evolutionary theory, all practical biology would stand just as it is. No major corporation has a “Department of Evolution” because scientists who have to produce results don’t use it.

‘In fact, I would like to challenge the readership of this publication to come up with one practical application of biology that would have been impossible were it not for the hypothesis of evolution.

‘In the meantime, I think that scientists should leave the important questions, such as what is the meaning of life and is there a God, to religion, which knows how to answer such questions, and stick to what they know how to do, such as breeding insect-resistant corn and curing cancer.’

Avraham Sonenthal, The Scientist 11(14):10, 1997

And that as they say is the truth, which it is very obvious you can't handle.

Whew! I can see that I struck a nerve with you...and we both know that wouldn't have happened if I didn't speak the truth. Your post reads like a man desperately trying to convince himself.

I understand from my own personal experience that the transition to atheism was difficult...not all truths are comforting. I also know from the anecdotes of my fellow atheists that it was difficult for them too. The key thing for us was to remember that the truth matters...and ultimately one is better for accepting it even if it means losing the "christian" part of one's identity.

60 years old isn't too late to start accepting the truth and it's consequences.
 
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Freodin

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So logically you came from primal chaos, or are you outside primal chaos?



Yet you just described it clearly and I understand what your saying,...
Hm... if you understand what I am saying... then why are you incapable of representing it correctly?
... but you claim you didn't come from primal chaos which logically means you're outside of primal chaos.
Like here. "... but you claim you didn't come from primal chaos...".

I did? Where?

My world view makes sense, apparently your's doesn't as I've pointed out above.
I see that you evaded my question, which is not a good way to demonstrate your understanding of my position.

I try again: eternal and infinite... is that ALL that your God is? Nothing else? How about "love" and "truth"? How about "father"? How about all these concepts and ideas about God that are found in the Bible? Do you really want to say that nothing of that is correct... God isn't love and truth, God only is "infinite" and "eternal"?

Primal Chaos can be said - as far as we can say anything at all - to be "infinite" and "eternal". But Primal Chaos is neither truth nor falsehood, neither love nor hate nor indifference. Not as we see these concepts.
So if that is what makes "God"... Primal Chaos isn't God.

But let's play: Primal Chaos IS infinite and eternal. That makes it my God! So what now?
 
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Chriliman

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Like here. "... but you claim you didn't come from primal chaos...".

So you did come from primal chaos? So something eternal and infinite that you can't comprehend caused you to exist. And since this primal chaos cannot demonstrate itself to you, you don't think it "created" you intentionally? Yet somehow you have this "idea" of primal chaos that was never demonstrated to you? So you literally created this idea out of nothing. Now that makes sense.

I try again: eternal and infinite... is that ALL that your God is? Nothing else? How about "love" and "truth"? How about "father"? How about all these concepts and ideas about God that are found in the Bible? Do you really want to say that nothing of that is correct... God isn't love and truth, God only is "infinite" and "eternal"?

These are all correct attributes of God. He is eternally and infinitely everything good and He created me. What's your point?

Primal Chaos can be said - as far as we can say anything at all - to be "infinite" and "eternal". But Primal Chaos is neither truth nor falsehood, neither love nor hate nor indifference. Not as we see these concepts.
So if that is what makes "God"... Primals Chaos isn't God.

Right, primal chaos isn't God. What now?

But let's play: Primal Chaos IS infinite and eternal. That makes it my God! So what now?

If your god is primal chaos then you've just admitted your god has no truth to it. Your god is neutral, neither claiming truth or denying truth. Which sounds about right because intellectually honest atheists should all admit they're making no truth claims about God, they just don't know either way. As I've pointed out before.

"But Primal Chaos is neither truth nor falsehood, neither love nor hate nor indifference. Not as we see these concepts."
 
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Freodin

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So you did come from primal chaos?
Ultimately, yes. As did you.
So something eternal and infinite that you can't comprehend caused you to exist.
No. That is an incorrect description. This is the reason why I objected to the term "reason for our objection" earlier. It did not "cause" me to exist. It is the base of our existence.
Another example of how well (or not) you understand my position.
And since this primal chaos cannot demonstrate itself to you,...
And again... where do you get this notion, when I said the direct opposite in post #2540. How can you claim to understand me, when you cannot even correctly represent me?

... you don't think it "created" you intentionally?
No. The fact that something like "intention" is not a concept that would work here nonwithstanding... why should I think so?

Yet somehow you have this "idea" of primal chaos that was never demonstrated to you? So you literally created this idea out of nothing. Now that makes sense.
As I said, this "idea" of primal chaos was demonstrated to me. It was demonstrated to me rationally.

And you cannot accept that... I wonder why? ;) (No, I don't. I know why. But rhetorical questions are fun.)

These are all correct attributes of God. He is eternally and infinitely everything good and He created me. What's your point?
My point is that you seemed to imply that, if something is infinite and eternal, it must be God. And if something isn't God, it mustn't be infinite and eternal.
I propose something infinite and eternal that isn't God, because it is different from God in most other concepts.

Right, primal chaos isn't God. What now?
Atheism! ;)

If your god is primal chaos then you've just admitted your god has no truth to it. Your god is neutral, neither claiming truth or denying truth. Which sounds about right because intellectually honest atheists should all admit they're making no truth claims about God, they just don't know either way. As I've pointed out before.
So now we are again at the idea that "God" has to be truth, claiming truth, denying truth. Ok, I understand your claim here.

But that isn't the ground of it all. You keep picking certain ideas about God, and use them as they fit your narrative. But you miss the whole: as God isn't only infinite and eternal and "truth" and "good" and whatever you want to claim... but also the prima causa, the creator of everything out of nothing.

This he cannot be. Primal chaos is the basis of all. No creation out of nothing. No first cause.


And here now we come to the really amusing part of that all: I do indeed make no statements of knowledge about "God" as a powerful entity who forms universes. I just don't believe in it. But I do claim knowledge about "God" as the eternal and infinite cause of all.
 
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Chriliman

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He's done a fine job of doing that. You're either incapable or intentional in your misunderstanding.​

I understand him just fine. It just doesn't make sense as I've pointed out in my responses. I'm trying to make sense of it. Of course he'll say that primal chaos cannot be made sense of. If that's the case why should I believe primal chaos is real if it can't be made sense of? I prefer to remain rational in what I believe in and not just willy nilly believe in anything even if it doesn't make sense.
 
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Freodin

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I understand him just fine.
That must be the reason why you keep stating that I say something when I say the direct opposite: because you understand me just fine!

It just doesn't make sense as I've pointed out in my responses. I'm trying to make sense of it. Of course he'll say that primal chaos cannot be made sense of. If that's the case why should I believe primal chaos is real if it can't be made sense of? I prefer to remain rational in what I believe in and not just willy nilly believe in anything even if it doesn't make sense.
God cannot be made sense of. You - limited, not eternal, not infinite - cannot understand (that is what "make sense of" means) God... at least this is what you claim. If you could, you could demonstrate this understanding.

The only difference here is that you keep asserting that whatever you say is "rational"... even if it isn't... while I admit it when it isn't.


That said: the idea of Primal Chaos isn't irrational at all... Primal Chaos itself is. The concept of why it is - must be! - is completely rational.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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Thanks, the Bible already predicted this.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Are you surprised the Bible is right again? Of course you deny that it predicted this already because it surely can't be true even though the graph you've posted here clearly shows its true.Hmm....

Sounds like a good thing to add to a book figuring people would eventually not buy into it anymore. Just another way to control a congregation. Just as hope & fear are ways to control populations.
 
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Chriliman

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Ultimately, yes. As did you.

So you are finite, but primal chaos is eternal and infinite and you're claiming it did not cause you to exist meaning you can describe yourself as eternal and infinite, not having a cause?


Hey, look... that is just what I have been saying from the beginning: I can't demonstrate Primal Chaos to you... but Primal Chaos can. Though it doesn't bother what you want or what you don't want... or what itself 'wants'.
Primal Chaos has been demonstrated to me. There is nothing I can do or you can do to get that demonstration... but you can admit that it is as rational an explanation as God is.

My bold. Apparently, even if I believe this nonsense of yours, it'll never be demonstrated to me from primal chaos itself. So why believe it? There is literally no reason to believe what you're saying because you've just claimed that primal chaos does not care about what I want. So the only reason to believe it would be to deny an eternal infinite God that does care about what I want.

As I said, this "idea" of primal chaos was demonstrated to me. It was demonstrated to me rationally.

Ah, you've used your own version of "rational thinking" to demonstrate something irrational to yourself. Got it. I've already pointed out this "rational" is based on the contradiction that atheism is making a truth claim. Is atheism making a truth claim now? I'm still confused.

And you cannot accept that... I wonder why? ;) (No, I don't. I know why. But rhetorical questions are fun.)

Simple. It. Doesn't. Make. Sense. All that makes sense here is that you're being irrational.

My point is that you seemed to imply that, if something is infinite and eternal, it must be God. And if something isn't God, it mustn't be infinite and eternal.
I propose something infinite and eternal that isn't God, because it is different from God in most other concepts.

And you have to think yourself to be infinite and eternal in order to make sense of this. If something infinite and eternal exists, then something finite was cause by that infinite eternal existence, there's no way around that.


Oh you mean, irrationalism?


So now we are again at the idea that "God" has to be truth, claiming truth, denying truth. Ok, I understand your claim here.

But that isn't the ground of it all. You keep picking certain ideas about God, and use them as they fit your narrative. But you miss the whole: as God isn't only infinite and eternal and "truth" and "good" and whatever you want to claim... but also the prima causa, the creator of everything out of nothing.

Common misunderstanding about God is that he created everything out of nothing. In actually if you really think about an eternal infinite God then you'd realize everything was created from Himself. He has no beginning and no end, so everything with a beginning came from that eternal infinite source, not "nothing". With this understanding you realize there can never be "nothing" or "non-existence", which would makes sense because we finite humans can never know "nothing" or "non-existence".

This he cannot be. Primal chaos is the basis of all. No creation out of nothing. No first cause.

Not if you understand God correctly, as I explained above.

And here now we come to the really amusing part of that all: I do indeed make no statements of knowledge about "God" as a powerful entity who forms universes. I just don't believe in it. But I do claim knowledge about "God" as the eternal and infinite cause of all.

So you don't believe God exists and you also don't believe God does not exist, this means you don't know. Glad we cleared that up. Just wish we didn't have to go through all of this to get to the truth that you don't know if God exists or not.
 
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