The origins of atheism

[Davian]

Let me give you a hypothetical:

If it came to the attention of GM that Chevrolet was acting like they were the actual parent company and that GM was just a figment of certain stockholders imagination...how would you advise them to deal with it, to set them straight?

I don't get your analogy. Even if the management of Chevrolet acted as if the corporate head office did actually exist, they still would exist. Head office could have them escorted out of the building in minutes, if they felt like it. How does this relate to your beliefs?

 

[HitchSlap]

Ana, I have given you a ton of information, and I have explained that proof is contingent on certain requirements. That is just the way it is. Many things have contingency requirements. In this case, it is that way by design...to limit the access to those who are willing to lay down their life to know (to loose their life, in order to gain it). This is a serious matter. It is the very reason that this entire universe was created.

But you are correct, it is true regardless of whether you believe it or not, or meet the requirements.

In this case, this information, cannot be known regardless of personal beliefs, until the opportunity to benefit from the information expires (at death).

There you go again Scotty, using a lot of words, yet not really saying anything. All this amounts to is, "you won't understand what I'm trying to say unless you drink the Kool-Aid."

 

[Davian]

Ana, I have given you a ton of information,

You have made many claims.

and I have explained that proof is contingent on certain requirements.

Such as, accepting your assertions without question.

That is just the way it is. Many things have contingency requirements. In this case, it is that way by design...to limit the access to those who are willing to lay down their life to know (to loose their life, in order to gain it). This is a serious matter. It is the very reason that this entire universe was created.

So you claim.

But you are correct, it is true regardless of whether you believe it or not, or meet the requirements.

Likewise.

In this case, this information, cannot be known regardless of personal beliefs, until the opportunity to benefit from the information expires (at death).

This is laughable. On what other claims can we pull out "you'll find out when you die" canard? You'll know the truth behind UFOs after you die. The secrets behind 9/11 will be revealed after your final breath. Bigfoot will meet you in the afterlife.

 

[Chriliman]

So basically, you think there's an answer to how god created the universe...and you think it's possible to know...you just don't know it right now. Is that about right?

Yea, exactly. It would be similar to me seeing a beautifully designed building and wanting to know who designed it so I could ask them how they did it exactly. I would first have to believe this person actually designed the building. Then it would take time for them to explain every last detail and even after they explained it all, I'd still have to believe it was actually them who truly designed the building.

God explains himself in different ways that allows those who want to understand to understand. If you don't want to understand then God has no obligation to explain anything to you.

 

[ScottA]

I don't get your analogy. Even if the management of Chevrolet acted as if the corporate head office did actually exist, they still would exist. Head office could have them escorted out of the building in minutes, if they felt like it. How does this relate to your beliefs?

You are destine to be escorted out of the building for not acknowledging the Head Office. That is the message we all have been trying to convey.

 

[ScottA]

There you go again Scotty, using a lot of words, yet not really saying anything. All this amounts to is, "you won't understand what I'm trying to say unless you drink the Kool-Aid."

12 words: Unless you are over 4 feet tall, you don't get on the Matterhorn.

 

[ScottA]

You have made many claims.

Such as, accepting your assertions without question.

So you claim.

Likewise.

This is laughable. On what other claims can we pull out "you'll find out when you die" canard? You'll know the truth behind UFOs after you die. The secrets behind 9/11 will be revealed after your final breath. Bigfoot will meet you in the afterlife.

"Contingent." Look it up.

 

[Davian]

You are destine to be escorted out of the building for not acknowledging the Head Office. That is the message we all have been trying to convey.

I still don't get your analogy. GM is a recognized legal entity in many (if not most) counties, and there is no reason to doubt its existence. They actually produce product, several examples of which I have owned myself. How does this relate to taking your religious claims seriously here? All you have proffered is opinion.

 

[HitchSlap]

12 words: Unless you are over 4 feet tall, you don't get on the Matterhorn.

Unlike your god/s, the Matterhorn exists.

See the difference?

 

[HitchSlap]

"Contingent." Look it up.

Contingent upon drinking the Kool-Aid. Religion has a way of doing that to you. It's one of the oldest cons known to man.

 

[Davian]

"Contingent." Look it up.

contingent |kənˈtinjənt| adjective
- subject to chance: the contingent nature of the job.• (of losses, liabilities, etc.) that can be anticipated to arise if a particular event occurs: businesses need to be aware of their liabilities, both actual and contingent.

How does this help?

 

[Davian]

12 words: Unless you are over 4 feet tall, you don't get on the Matterhorn.

That's 13 words, even with the contraction.

 

[ScottA]

I still don't get your analogy. GM is a recognized legal entity in many (if not most) counties, and there is no reason to doubt its existence. They actually produce product, several examples of which I have owned myself. How does this relate to taking your religious claims seriously here? All you have proffered is opinion.

Let me break it down for you:

Chevrolet (in the analogy) has forgotten who their parent company is. There is plenty of legal entity data, but they do not recognize it. They think it's crazy talk, and dismiss any reason of its existence. They make stuff. They even made a baby they call Corvette. But they don't seem to be able to imagine that someone up the corporate ladder could have a baby too...and that they are that baby. So...they turn to their Parent and say, "You're not my Parent - I hate you!"

 

[Ana the Ist]

These rudderless ships remind me of the parable of the prodigal son.

Who's a "rudderless ship?"

 

[ScottA]

Unlike your god/s, the Matterhorn exists.

See the difference?

Did you see the picture that I gave you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

In this case, this information, cannot be known regardless of personal beliefs....

The only kind of information that requires personal beliefs in order to be known...is personal beliefs.

You're claiming that this information is factual though, aren't you?

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment...suppose I said I had some factual information that I can only share with you once you believe in what I believe in. What would you think? Would you think I actually had some factual information?

 

[ScottA]

contingent |kənˈtinjənt| adjective
- subject to chance: the contingent nature of the job.• (of losses, liabilities, etc.) that can be anticipated to arise if a particular event occurs: businesses need to be aware of their liabilities, both actual and contingent.

How does this help?

You stopped short of: "#2 occurring or existing only if... (You only get the proof of God "if").

 

[ScottA]

The only kind of information that requires personal beliefs in order to be known...is personal beliefs.

You're claiming that this information is factual though, aren't you?

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment...suppose I said I had some factual information that I can only share with you once you believe in what I believe in. What would you think? Would you think I actually had some factual information?

There is no limit to contingent requirements, except those that are imposed. In this unique case, the requirement is that you believe.

But, putting myself in your shoes...I don't know you well enough to put my faith in you. But, let me put it this way: Is there anything you would lay down your life for, or stake your life on? How about your own life? ...Because that is exactly the requirement. It's a leap of faith. But you do not do it for me or anyone else...you do it for you.

 

[HitchSlap]

There is no limit to contingent requirements, except those that are imposed. In this unique case, the requirement is that you believe.

But, putting myself in your shoes...I don't know you well enough to put my faith in you. But, let me put it this way: Is there anything you would lay down your life for, or stake your life on? How about your own life? ...Because that is exactly the requirement. It's a leap of faith. But you do not do it for me or anyone else...you do it for you.

I'll choose fact over faith every time, and twice on Sunday.

 

[Davian]

Let me break it down for you:

Chevrolet (in the analogy) has forgotten who their parent company is.

Companies don't have a memory. People do.

There is plenty of legal entity data, but they do not recognize it.

In your case, you have nothing legal, only opinion.

They think it's crazy talk, and dismiss any reason of its existence. They make stuff. They even made a baby they call Corvette. But they don't seem to be able to imagine that someone up the corporate ladder could have a baby too...and that they are that baby. So...they turn to their Parent and say, "You're not my Parent - I hate you!"

Where did the hate comment come from? I am simply not convinced of your religious claims.

The analogy looks more like you are the guy standing in the lobby of the Chevrolet management offices, yelling at the receptionists that GM HQ is imaginary, and that management is to accept that they are accountable to some other undefined company that, when pressed, you are unable to demonstrate to exist.

"Fishbowl!" you say back at them.

They have you escorted off of the premises.