The origins of atheism

[ScottA]

And your beliefs to not change reality. Feel free to pretend otherwise.

You are misrepresenting that document. I do find that to be intellectually dishonest.

heckle |ˈhekəl| verb [ with obj. ] 1 interrupt (a public speaker) with derisive or aggressive comments or abuse: he was booed and heckled when he tried to address the demonstrators |

That does not seem to be applicable here, unless you feel that I am interrupting your prothletizing, which is against the rules of this forum.

Pretend that you are in a philosophy forum.

If you opinion was truth, should not it be supportable with facts? And, that is not the case.

Perhaps there is no "light". You could be wrong, could you not?

1. I don't have any [religious] beliefs.
2. The rules of the forum were personally elaborated to me, and the "intent" of the document was explained just as I stated it to you.
3. You do indeed interrupt your own ability (and that of others) to advance your knowledge of the topics regarding God and the truth.
4. Why would I pretend to speculate and offer conjecture in a forum dedicated to the truth?
5. My position is supported with facts. It is your limited knowledge of the facts that suggest otherwise. And your definition of the term "fact" is limited to those things which are beneath the level of the subject matter.
6. I am not wrong, nor could I be, for it is not I who speaks, but speak He who is within me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

6. I am not wrong, nor could I be, for it is not I who speaks, but speak He who is within me.

What if you encounter a Christian that says the same thing you do (they can't be wrong), but holds a contradictory belief about some aspect of Christianity?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Not true in my case.

I had started by assuming that God exists. I had been taught this as even a little child, and it was natural then to assume that my elders were correct.

I had started to question God's existence. I discovered that I had simply assumed that God exists on the authority of adults. I discovered that I didn't have any rational reason to think that God was even a "possibility".

I did not choose to believe that God does not exist. My belief in God disappeared without any conscious choice. My only choice was to accept that I was no longer a Christian.

It had nothing to do with "not wanting God to exist". That was never the issue. The issue was what good reason had I to think that God exists or might exist. I had none.

This path was motivated by a sincere desire to know the truth. I found the truth that belief in God has no rational foundation, and I was set free from darkness. I had found my rational enlightenment.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark,
People “choose” things all the time without full awareness that that they are choosing. Unconscious choices are very common. So just because you were not aware of choosing not to believe in God does not mean that this was so. Something this important to a person’s sense of identity does not just “happen”, nor does a previous belief just disappear. That may be your experience of it, but there are always many influences which affect our feelings and decisions and behaviors of which we are minimally aware.

I am a psychologist (35 years in the mental health field), so I can speak with some authority about such things.

I cannot say why you chose to disbelieve because I do not know you. Even your therapist would have to know you in some depth to have a reasonable hypothesis. Much has to do with why you believed in the first place. Was your belief because of wanting to please other people? Was it entirely intellectual or emotional? Was it purely nominal (in name only)? Many people who grew up in “Christian” homes and/or had many “Christian” friends have gone along with the Christian program just because of family or peer influence, not because they ever truly examined the claims of the faith. The hypocrisy of many of these “Christians” can eventually turn one away from the faith.

Many people say they believe but it is only a social convention and not because they ever fully believed. Perhaps you never really believed and finally could accept this reality. Just stuff to think about. You have come on this Christian website (with a thread dealing with the atheist question) for some reason, perhaps because you are not done thinking about it.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Hello there everyone. I am sure this has been discussed before but I would like to start a new discussion on this. I want to hear your opinions on why do you think atheism exists and its cause. I will tell mine only after I see yours.

Atheism exists because human beings hate "submitting" to anything or anyone more powerful than themselves. We all want to be our own little gods. Theologians say that this is a result of "original sin"-- or an inherited tendency that goes back to the original humans who rebelled against God.

The real question is why billions actually DO believe. This is a much more complex and controversial issue. Was it God who caused the belief or was it totally a human choice or was it learned from others? Or some combination of these?

I have always been a logical, practical guy. Even if God had not revealed Himself to me beyond any doubt (which He did), I would tend toward belief in the triune God of the Bible and therefore follow Jesus. Why? Two reasons: 1) Because of the obvious superior morality of Jesus’ teachings, and 2), because of the logic inherent in Pascal’s hypothetical “wager.” Here is the way I put Pascal’s classic argument:

Given that death is coming to us all, what would be the advantages or disadvantages of believing in God ... if it turned out that there actually was no God? The consequences for believers and nonbelievers would be equal. No advantage either way. Everyone would be equally dead. No winners.

But what would be the advantages (or disadvantages) of believing (or disbelieving) in God if it turned out that there actually WAS a God, and there actually was a heaven and hell as the Bible teaches? In that case, there would be a huge difference in consequences for believers vs. unbelievers. Heaven vs. hell! Eternally! One cannot imagine a more weighty outcome. In this situation, you can’t really lose by believing. But you might lose BIG if you refuse to believe. As a practical, logical, self-protective guy, I think I would at least try to believe, even without clear proof either way.

It seems to me that when it comes to ultimate concerns, atheists are just not very smart. Those with more intelligence might risk a little humility and ask the God they do not believe in to give them that saving faith. Who knows, God may just do that.

P.S. - Even while living in this world, believers have some advantages over nonbelievers. The scientific research consistently shows that (on average) people of Christian faith are less fearful, more satisfied with life, and more humanitarian than nonbelievers. The results of my own doctoral dissertation research (published in the International Journal of the Psychology of Religion) revealed much less anxiety and depression in spiritually-oriented Christians than in others. (Of course there are exceptions. I have known some miserable Christians and some relatively happy atheists.)

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Mark,
People “choose” things all the time without full awareness that that they are choosing. Unconscious choices are very common. So just because you were not aware of choosing not to believe in God does not mean that this was so. Something this important to a person’s sense of identity does not just “happen”, nor does a previous belief just disappear. That may be your experience of it, but there are always many influences which affect our feelings and decisions and behaviors of which we are minimally aware.

I am a psychologist (35 years in the mental health field), so I can speak with some authority about such things.

I cannot say why you chose to disbelieve because I do not know you. Even your therapist would have to know you in some depth to have a reasonable hypothesis. Much has to do with why you believed in the first place. Was your belief because of wanting to please other people? Was it entirely intellectual or emotional? Was it purely nominal (in name only)? Many people who grew up in “Christian” homes and/or had many “Christian” friends have gone along with the Christian program just because of family or peer influence, not because they ever truly examined the claims of the faith. The hypocrisy of many of these “Christians” can eventually turn one away from the faith.

Many people say they believe but it is only a social convention and not because they ever fully believed. Perhaps you never really believed and finally could accept this reality. Just stuff to think about. You have come on this Christian website (with a thread dealing with the atheist question) for some reason, perhaps because you are not done thinking about it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case I actually did believe and did not choose to disbelieve.

 

[Chriliman]

Nooooo, the question is nonsensical because the concept of cardinal north ends at the North Pole. There is no answer.

I know what Hawking thinks the answer is. He compares the North Pole question to asking what's before the beginning of the universe. His answer is that there's nothing before the beginning of the universe, which means there is no answer, like you said.

However, if there is no answer to our existence then there can't be a truth to know. Therefore, in the view that there is no answer to what was before the universe, there is no truth behind why the universe exists, therefore, no truth to life at all, thus meaningless to search for the truth. Do you accept this view as true?

If you don't accept the view that there is no truth behind the universe, then you must think there is a possible truth to be known. Even saying "I don't know the truth" implies you think there is a truth to be known, but you currently don't know it.

In light of all of this, is it really rational to even think it's possible for there to be no truth behind the universe? Especially when saying "I don't know the truth" implies you think there is a truth that you currently do not know.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I know what Hawking thinks the answer is. He compares the North Pole question to asking what's before the beginning of the universe. His answer is that there's nothing before the beginning of the universe, which means there is no answer, like you said.

I didn't say there was no answer. I said the question is nonsensical. You can't say anything about an answer to a nonsensical question.

However, if there is no answer to our existence then there can't be a truth to know. Therefore, in the view that there is no answer to what was before the universe, there is no truth behind why the universe exists, therefore, no truth to life at all, thus meaningless to search for the truth. Do you accept this view as true?

No. I do however accept the view that you're the king of non sequiturs...

If you don't accept the view that there is no truth behind the universe, then you must think there is a possible truth to be known. Even saying "I don't know the truth" implies you think there is a truth to be known, but you currently don't know it.

If by "truth" you mean facts, I'm pretty confident that at least some facts can be known.

In light of all of this, is it really rational to even think it's possible for there to be no truth behind the universe? Especially when saying "I don't know the truth" implies you think there is a truth that you currently do not know.

What do you mean by "truth behind the universe"?

I'm getting the oddest feeling of deja vu...

 

[ecco]

​

No UFO's in the UB. The only relation to Sci fi is the authors who were UB readers that extrapolated concepts from the book.

No UFO's in the UB?
This is quoted from your book - no extrapolations: (my emphasis)

2. Transit of the Planetary Adams

51:2.1 Upon receipt of the news that another inhabited world has attained the height of physical evolution, the System Sovereign convenes the corps of Material Sons and Daughters on the system capital; and following the discussion of the needs of such an evolutionary world, two of the volunteering group — an Adam and an Eve of the senior corps of Material Sons — are selected to undertake the adventure, to submit to the deep sleep preparatory to being enseraphimed and transported from their home of associated service to the new realm of new opportunities and new dangers.​

Now, perhaps I shouldn't have used the term UFO. Perhaps I should have used the term spaceship or superhypeinterstellartraveling device or whatever. But somehow your "Adam & Eve" get from one place in space to a different place in space.

Oooops, I'm wrong again. I just did a little further reading: (my emphasis)

51:2.2 Adams and Eves are semimaterial creatures and, as such, are not transportable by seraphim. They must undergo dematerialization on the system capital before they can be enseraphimed for transport to the world of assignment. The transport seraphim are able to effect such changes in the Material Sons and in other semimaterial beings as enable them to be enseraphimed and thus to be transported through space from one world or system to another. About three days of standard time are consumed in this transport preparation, and it requires the co-operation of a Life Carrier to restore such a dematerialized creature to normal existence upon arrival at the end of the seraphic-transport journey.
​

It's more like a Star Trek "beam them over" concept. But then, how does the Life Carrier get here?

No sci-fi stuff there huh? Are you sure L. Ron Hubbard didn't write the Blue Book?

 

[Chriliman]

What do you mean by "truth behind the universe"?

I'm getting the oddest feeling of deja vu...

I mean an actual indisputable answer as to why the universe exists and as to why we exist. The truth that ends all dispute, no question, no excuse, the final answer. This is what I mean by the truth behind the universe. The truth behind everything, if you will. Do you think such a truth is possible to know either for you personally or for any human ever at any time?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I mean an actual indisputable answer as to why the universe exists and as to why we exist. The truth that ends all dispute, no question, no excuse, the final answer. This is what I mean by the truth behind the universe. The truth behind everything, if you will. Do you think such a truth is possible to know either for you personally or for any human ever at any time?

I exist because my biological parents had sex. Isn't that why you exist?

 

[jenny1972]

Since you're unable to do that...it appears as if you don't actually know

or maybe its just hard to explain the experience in words since communication with God is different than communication between two humans

 

[ecco]

Same Jesus, Christians don't have a monopoly oh him.

Clearly some christians disagree with you:
http://www.creationists.org/cults-urantia.html

The Jesus of the Urantia book is not the same Jesus of the Bible. In fact they are polar opposites. If Satan can simply get us to believe in a false, repackaged Jesus, he can effectively lure us away from being saved through faith in the real Jesus of the Bible.​

You didn't address why some other christian groups consider Urantians to be in league with satan just as you and some other christian groups consider atheists to be in league with satan. Care to give it a shot?

 

[Chriliman]

I exist because my biological parents had sex. Isn't that why you exist?

Really? Your mind doesn't go very deep does it? That's fine, thanks for your time

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Really? Your mind doesn't go very deep does it? That's fine, thanks for your time

It seems like yours goes so deep you can't make sense to anyone else...

If you ever have an actual question for me to answer, let me know.

 

[ScottA]

You should stick with beliefs. When you claim to have knowledge (when you claim to "know") people tend to want you to explain what it is you know.

Since you're unable to do that...it appears as if you don't actually know.

That would be fine if you were just looking for opinion, and if the topic were within the physical world...but that is not the circumstances.

What is not appropriate for these circumstances, is to expect that the higher component (God or His people) should bow to the lower component (you), in the access of [His] greater knowledge. If you when before a king or a president, would you expect that? Never. But here you do expect it...and you get nowhere. Strange.

 

[ScottA]

You haven't given any answers of any type.

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<-------- Answers.

 

[Chriliman]

It seems like yours goes so deep you can't make sense to anyone else...

If you ever have an actual question for me to answer, let me know.

I'd imagine that's how a genius feels. I'm not saying I'm a genius, but I do have access to one that's infinite and eternal and He has all the answers.

 

[Ana the Ist]

​

No UFO's in the UB?
This is quoted from your book - no extrapolations: (my emphasis)

2. Transit of the Planetary Adams

51:2.1 Upon receipt of the news that another inhabited world has attained the height of physical evolution, the System Sovereign convenes the corps of Material Sons and Daughters on the system capital; and following the discussion of the needs of such an evolutionary world, two of the volunteering group — an Adam and an Eve of the senior corps of Material Sons — are selected to undertake the adventure, to submit to the deep sleep preparatory to being enseraphimed and transported from their home of associated service to the new realm of new opportunities and new dangers.​

Now, perhaps I shouldn't have used the term UFO. Perhaps I should have used the term spaceship or superhypeinterstellartraveling device or whatever. But somehow your "Adam & Eve" get from one place in space to a different place in space.

Oooops, I'm wrong again. I just did a little further reading: (my emphasis)

51:2.2 Adams and Eves are semimaterial creatures and, as such, are not transportable by seraphim. They must undergo dematerialization on the system capital before they can be enseraphimed for transport to the world of assignment. The transport seraphim are able to effect such changes in the Material Sons and in other semimaterial beings as enable them to be enseraphimed and thus to be transported through space from one world or system to another. About three days of standard time are consumed in this transport preparation, and it requires the co-operation of a Life Carrier to restore such a dematerialized creature to normal existence upon arrival at the end of the seraphic-transport journey.
​

It's more like a Star Trek "beam them over" concept. But then, how does the Life Carrier get here?

No sci-fi stuff there huh? Are you sure L. Ron Hubbard didn't write the Blue Book?

I remember that movie...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'd imagine that's how a genius feels. I'm not saying I'm a genius, but I do have access to one that's infinite and eternal and He has all the answers.

Well ask him how a genius feels lol.

 

[Ana the Ist]

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<-------- Answers.

Those are periods. Thanks for proving my point.