The origins of atheism

[ecco]

Greetings ecco,

Interesting thoughts. As a child, I too, was incredulous with some of the Bible stories... but as an adult I realize that every civilization, every culture, all parts of the world, have a flood story. This can't just be coincidence.

I wouldn't use the term coincidence either. I would point out that in just the past 5 years there have been hurricanes, tsunamis and monsoons in many parts of the world. Not at the same, but newsworthy nonetheless. I would also point that Egypt was well established at the time of the "flood". There are no records of a flood in Egypt (excepting the seasonal flooding of the Nile).

Then there's all the archaeological evidence that supports the things we read about in the Bible (with the exception of the Exodus from Egypt, and lack of evidence, even of slavery).

The Exodus from Egypt is one of the most important stories of the OT. As you point out, there is NO evidence for this despite years of searching by biblical architects.

I have come to believe that the Hebrew people were good story tellers (they will say this of themselves even) and that alot of the tales were probably embellishments, ways to make the story interesting so that their history would be re-told and preserved. I do question how much was just what they made up about their own history. When I read the old testament literature, alot of it reads to me like human justifications for warring, i.e., bad behavior.

Beginning with "In the Beginning", ancient man trying to answer the question of where we came from. The Fall From Grace and the Flood are about disobeying god. The Bable story... to explain why there are different languages and to point out the failings of arrogance.

The people in the old testament aren't too admirable.
<snip>
the generations after him seem to go all to hell.

Like I said earlier, what I keep finding that I can't deny is Yshwe,
and he never denied the Jewish history, and that same God.

Not all the quotes of Jesus made it into accepted scripture. Perhaps the "organized christian church" kept them out because they did not want to alienate possible Jewish converts.

 

[AV1611VET]

So is gravity but we know it's there based on observations, tests and predictions.

Yup.

Can't do that with a God.

So even if He did show up and heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water and through locked doors, you would still deny His claim that He is the son of God, based on the scientific method?

In other words, if He let you observe Him, but not test Him,* you still wouldn't believe Him?

* You know -- like Satan tried to do?

And you tell me science today doesn't have the earmarks of Satanic witchcraft?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Yup.
So even if He did show up and heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water and through locked doors, you would still deny His claim that He is the son of God, based on the scientific method?

In other words, if He let you observe Him, but not test Him,* you still wouldn't believe Him?

* You know -- like Satan tried to do?

And you tell me science today doesn't have the earmarks of Satanic witchcraft?

An omniscient being would know what proof i'd require. He either cannot do so (therefore not omnipotent), doesn't care to (Not omnibenevolent) or is a man made myth.

If you don't like science, then get off your computer, don't use toothpaste, don't drive your car, don't use a cell phone, don't visit the doctor when you're sick, don't use hot water, etc, etc, etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

An omniscient being would know what proof i'd require.

He does know what "proof" you require.

You just don't know it.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Greetings ecco,

Interesting thoughts. As a child, I too, was incredulous with some of the Bible stories... but as an adult I realize that every civilization, every culture, all parts of the world, have a flood story. This can't just be coincidence.

These flood stories predate the book of genesis by hundreds of years. Gilgamesh is almost identical to the story of Noah and was written much earlier.

Even the story of Jesus was borrowed from much older stories.
For example:

1. Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead and was known as the savior and redeemer.

2. Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and known as the savior of the world. Prophets predicted his birth and claimed he'd be a king. His last words were "It is finished" Sound familiar?

3. Dionysus was literally the "Son of God". Born of a virgin mother and depicted riding a donkey. He turned water to wine and healed the sick. He was killed, resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death.

4. Osiris did the same things as Dionysus.

5. Osiris' son Horus was known as "light of the world, the good shepherd, the lamb" and was referred to as "The way, the truth and the life" His symbol was a cross. Sound familiar?

6. Mithra's birthday is celebrated on December 25th. The birth was witnessed by shepherds who brought him gifts. Also had 12 disciples and also had a final meal before going up to heaven. The story also says he will return to pass judgement on the living and the dead. Good go to heaven, bad go to hell. Does this story sound familiar? It predates Christianity by 600 years.

7. Krishna had a miraculous conception and wise men were able to come visit as they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to find him and have him killed. Sound familiar?

8. Apollonius of Tyana performed countless miracles. His birth was of a virgin foretold by an angel. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven. He is known as "The Son of God"

All of these stories predate Christianity.

 

[AV1611VET]

These flood stories predate the book of genesis by hundreds of years. Gilgamesh is almost identical to the story of Noah and was written much earlier.

Interesting feat in view of the fact that Sumeria was built after the Flood by Noah's great grandson Nimrod.

Next, I'll bet you'll tell me Egypt existed during the Flood, despite the fact that the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson Mizraim.

Or China existed, despite the fact that the Chinese came from Noah's grandson Canaan.

 

[David Colin Gould]

Interesting feat in view of the fact that Gilgamesh was built after the Flood by Noah's great grandson, Nimrod.

Gilgamesh was built, was he?

 

[AV1611VET]

Gilgamesh was built, was he?

LOL

Sorry -- I was thinking of Sumeria.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[SteveB28]

Gilgamesh was built, was he?

Oh my, oh my....!

We have a town in my state called Gilgandra. Perhaps he was thinking of it...!

Oh my........l

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh my, oh my....!

We have a town in my state called Gilgandra. Perhaps he was thinking of it...!

Oh my........l

Gilgandra was built after the Flood as well!

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Interesting feat in view of the fact that Gilgamesh was built after the Flood by Noah's great grandson Nimrod.

Wrong. The story of Gilgamesh predates the Noah story by hundreds of years.

Next, I'll bet you'll tell me Egypt existed during the Flood, despite the fact that the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson Mizraim.

Can you prove this claim without using scripture?

Or China existed, despite the fact that the Chinese came from Noah's grandson Canaan.

Provide evidence for your claims.

Do you have a rebuttal to the Jesus story being borrowed from several other myths that predate the Jesus story by hundreds of years?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Double post

 

[AV1611VET]

Wrong. The story of Gilgamesh predates the Noah story by hundreds of years.

Ya.

Heard that 1-meg times and still don't believe it.

Can you prove this claim without using scripture?

"Prove" being the operative word, isn't it?

I've seen it used as a sort of "escape hatch."

But let's see where this goes:

Neo-Babylonian texts use the term Mizraim for Egypt.

SOURCE

Provide evidence for your claims.

Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
Genesis 10:16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
Genesis 10:17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
Genesis 10:18And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.

 

[AV1611VET]

Double post

One of my favorite websites:

THE SIXTEEN GRANDSONS OF NOAH

 

[Cearbhall]

Yup.
So even if He did show up and heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water and through locked doors, you would still deny His claim that He is the son of God, based on the scientific method?

In other words, if He let you observe Him, but not test Him,* you still wouldn't believe Him?

Many people have claimed to do these things. Why do you doubt them?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Ya. Heard that 1-meg times and still don't believe it

So you deny historical evidence when it contradicts your beliefs? Do you enjoy having cognitive dissonance?

Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
Genesis 10:16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
Genesis 10:17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
Genesis 10:18And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.

Scripture is not evidence. Not sure why you don't understand this concept.

One of my favorite websites:

THE SIXTEEN GRANDSONS OF NOAH

Predictably linking a biased creation website that states that anything that contradicts their beliefs is wrong. Any unbiased, non scripture evidence you'd like to present that confirm your extraordinary claims?

 

[Davian]

That's because He is invisible.

Invisible is still detectable. You mean, undetectable.

 

[Davian]

...
Proof is for alcohol.

proof - noun - 1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
- dictionary.com

Words are defined by how we use them.

 

[Davian]

He does know what "proof" you require.

You just don't know it.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Why would you seek something that you believe to be fictitious? Or are you using theistic/circular reasoning here?

 

[As I was saying]

Incorrect. Autistic people don't realize they are being rude, condescending and offensive.

If that is what you think you know nothing about autistic people but it is always interesting to read what people think they know about autistic people and even though they are not autistic they somehow know more about them than the person who is autistic.