The origins of atheism

[LynnC]

The next one gives a timeline that goes back to the era we are discussing.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_rape1.htm
​

You don't need to jump to any conclusions without evidence. You just have to look at the evidence.

Perhaps you just have a problem accepting that Moses would be so brutal.

Greetings ecco,
Ok, Deuteronomy 21:11- convinces me. (edit: Ok, I am not happy with the scripture links... I always use Biblegateway.com and the KJV, but it won't let me unlink)

You bring me back to a problem that I always encounter...
Yshwe was the 'new thing' that God was doing... (Isaiah 43)
I always find that I can not deny Yshwe (known as Jesus) and what He taught us...
but what I can not understand is that we have no record of Him rejecting Moses and the things of the old testament.
I take this to be, because He was the 'new thing' that God was doing... coming amongst the creation in the form of the Son, in order to show, rather than His wrath... His Love.
My concept of Yshwe grows more and more to be the picture of a Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite that grew up in India. Much of the teaching of Yshwe seems to reflect the teaching of the Buddha.

Peace and blessings to you.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You just made an assumption about the universe and reality right there.

No, I've stated a fact.
The universe is the way it is - no matter what neurons are firing in my brain.

We should just ask honest questions and try not to assume, but assuming is inevitable until the truth is known.

Only if you are allergic to the words "I don't know", which you clearly are.

But you just made an assumption based on your preference that reality isn't eternal and that it doesn't care about you.

No. It's a fact that the nature of the universe doesn't change based on my preferences.

I might prefer not plummething to my death when jumping from the Eiffel Tower, but gravity won't care.

My definition of God is that He's all goodness eternally.

Great. My definition of god is that it's a chicken-cheese sandwich and it's delicious.

This means eternal reality is God, along with eternal love, peace, joy, happiness and whatever else non-physical good things you can think of. IOW, there is nothing bad in God.

I'm not interested in your religious opinions.

Well, when you claim to not make assumptions based on personal preference and then go ahead and make assumptions based on personal preference,

Intellectual dishonesty, once again.
Misrepresenting and warping what I said, once again.

it makes it difficult to pin down what you really think/believe/want. It's all just confusing to me.

The only reason you are confused is because you are unable to think outside of your little black-and-white bubble that you created for yourself.

It's reasonable to think the truth should be clear, not confusing.

The truth is that I don't know and another truth seems to be that you are allergic to those words.

Let's agree to disagree for now.

No. I'll agree to you being dishonest throughout this conversation.

Everybody but you seems to understand perfecly well what I am saying here.

Event the 8-year old son of a poster a few messages back, understands what I am saying.

You seem to be the only one confused about tis.

Perhaps you should reflect on that.

Now shoo.

 

[jenny1972]

How am I to know that you simply didn't imagine it?

well you dont know i cant give you any proof other than just saying its what really happened just like you cant prove that anything really happened to you can you prove that you are really sitting where you are right now in the room you are sitting doing what you think you are doing and its not just your imagination? nothing like that happened before or after just that 1 time you asked how i knew that it was from God and so i directed you to that first post of mine which explains how i came to the conclusion it was not simply the physical but also the overwhelming emotional that was unusual and of course being then inspired by thoughts that i knew were not from me as i know well my own thoughts .

 

[AV1611VET]

Well I became a happier, more caring person after I dropped my faith so I don't see any spiritual problems at all.

Faith in who though? Allah? Thor? Jesus? Quetzacotl?

 

[jenny1972]

Three possibilities here: God is unable to provide evidence of his existence, he does not care to, or he doesn't exist. You also have stated that you are unable to provide evidence. Would you agree that I am justified in not believing your claims to be true?

well since God is able to and He does exist the answer is that he does not care to , maybe the problem was your focus on your religion and not on HIM ? ' ye shall have no other gods before me '

 

[AV1611VET]

well since God is able to and He does exist the answer is that he does not care to , maybe the problem was your focus on your religion and not on HIM ? ' ye shall have no other gods before me '

I usually find, after asking someone who makes a claim like this -- and getting an honest answer -- usually considers God the Father to be YAHWEH -- a name I'm strongly opposed to.

 

[jenny1972]

It took him the best part of his adult lifetime to realise that the "familiar thoughts" which kept him "company" were all part of a convincing delusion.

How can you be sure that yours are otherwise?

a delusion is something that isnt real our thoughts are real we really have them they exist its our consciousness and we have little control over our thoughts but they are very real , you have thoughts and so do i and every other human confirms that they too have thoughts so with all this evidence that thoughts do exist how can you possibly think that thoughts are a "delusion" because one human concluded that all his thoughts were not "real" somehow ?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

well since God is able to and He does exist the answer is that he does not care to , maybe the problem was your focus on your religion and not on HIM ? ' ye shall have no other gods before me '

Can you provide evidence for this claim?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

a delusion is something that isnt real our thoughts are real we really have them they exist its our consciousness and we have little control over our thoughts but they are very real , you have thoughts and so do i and every other human confirms that they too have thoughts so with all this evidence that thoughts do exist how can you possibly think that thoughts are a "delusion" because one human concluded that all his thoughts were not "real" somehow ?

Thoughts are real but the contents of those thoughts might not be accurate.

That's the difference.

 

[jenny1972]

Oh, but we are here already. Your god's existence has been claimed for the last several thousand years. It has been a long and drawn-out trial, but no-one has yet produced an iota of credible evidence.

thats because the only evidence that will be believed when it comes to God is personal evidence given to individuals you can look up the world "miracles" but none of them will convince you even the ones that science cannot explain will not convince your doubting mind you will always think of some explanation ' well thats because science just hasnt advanced enough to explain it' or they didnt do enough tests or... nothing will convince you except God but since you have closed your heart and mind to the possibility of God your not open to that.

 

[Chriliman]

No, I've stated a fact.
The universe is the way it is - no matter what neurons are firing in my brain.

Right, the universe is the way it is - no matter what neurons are firing in your brain. Meaning the universe could be created by an eternal infinite God and no matter what neurons are firing in your brain, that truth would never change. This God could prove himself to everyone at any time.

The universe could also be one of an infinite amount of universes in an eternal reality, but we'd have no way to verify this as true because other universes don't seem to be trying to reach us and let us know they're there, therefore, is it really reasonable to believe it?

If we want to learn anything new about what the truth is then it's unreasonable for us to make no assumptions about what that possible truth is. Therefore, your claim that you make no assumptions about what the truth is, whether knowable or unknowable, shows that you lack a willingness to find the actual truth and that you're fine with not knowing.

The truth has to come out at some point or else it was never there to begin with.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

I think atheism came out of the experiences more reasoned thinkers had with less reasoned thinkers. I'm not saying that all theists are less reasoned that all theists, but that those who defended theism to the Atheist community were not at all effective.

You also have to take into account the hostility of those who believe have shown those who don't and the propensity of those without any responses to shove fingers in peoples faces and condemn them to a place they equally don't believe in for not believing in God to begin with.

I think Atheism came out of Theists who consider themselves so far above everyone else to threat them according to what their religion prescribes. Christianity describes just how to threat those who refuse to except Christ's message, but how many times have I seen people of faith ignore this for the pleasure of shoving sings in others faces?

It's not hard to locate those who abuse religion, but it is hard to find those Christian's who will call them out on it and shock the hell out of the media who wants us seen only by those who stand for themselves and hide in our ranks.

 

[ecco]

Greetings ecco,
Ok, Deuteronomy 21:11- convinces me. (edit: Ok, I am not happy with the scripture links... I always use Biblegateway.com and the KJV, but it won't let me unlink)

KJV

11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.​

So, Moses is inconsistent. Are you genuinely surprised?

In one part of the OT he states to kill all the little boys and take young girls. If the mindset here is killing little boys, then the mindset is to rape the young girls.

In another part of the OT his tone is much softer.

In neither do the females have any opportunity to say "NO". By today's standards it's rape and forcible captivity.

You bring me back to a problem that I always encounter...
Yshwe was the 'new thing' that God was doing... (Isaiah 43)
I always find that I can not deny Yshwe (known as Jesus) and what He taught us...

Some teachings were good.

but what I can not understand is that we have no record of Him rejecting Moses and the things of the old testament. I take this to be, because He was the 'new thing' that God was doing... coming amongst the creation in the form of the Son, in order to show, rather than His wrath... His Love.

The early christians wanted to gain converts from wherever they could. That included hebrews. That is why they included writings from the tanakh into their scripture and called it "the Old Testament".

My concept of Yshwe grows more and more to be the picture of a Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite that grew up in India. Much of the teaching of Yshwe seems to reflect the teaching of the Buddha.

That's an interesting concept.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

thats because the only evidence that will be believed when it comes to God is personal evidence given to individuals you can look up the world "miracles" but none of them will convince you even the ones that science cannot explain will not convince your doubting mind you will always think of some explanation ' well thats because science just hasnt advanced enough to explain it' or they didnt do enough tests or... nothing will convince you except God but since you have closed your heart and mind to the possibility of God your not open to that.

The whole "You've closed off your mind" spiel is just a cop out that Christians use to try and explain away why we aren't all getting personal experiences with a god. It's a failed attempt at mind reading.

My mind is not closed off in the least. I'll believe anything that has good evidence that convinces me.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

thats because the only evidence that will be believed when it comes to God is personal evidence given to individuals you can look up the world "miracles" but none of them will convince you even the ones that science cannot explain will not convince your doubting mind you will always think of some explanation ' well thats because science just hasnt advanced enough to explain it' or they didnt do enough tests or... nothing will convince you except God but since you have closed your heart and mind to the possibility of God your not open to that.

Link one miracle that has been confirmed.

 

[ecco]

I think atheism came out of the experiences more reasoned thinkers had with less reasoned thinkers. I'm not saying that all theists are less reasoned that all theists, but that those who defended theism to the Atheist community were not at all effective.

You also have to take into account the hostility of those who believe have shown those who don't and the propensity of those without any responses to shove fingers in peoples faces and condemn them to a place they equally don't believe in for not believing in God to begin with.

I think Atheism came out of Theists who consider themselves so far above everyone else to threat them according to what their religion prescribes. Christianity describes just how to threat those who refuse to except Christ's message, but how many times have I seen people of faith ignore this for the pleasure of shoving sings in others faces?

It's not hard to locate those who abuse religion, but it is hard to find those Christian's who will call them out on it and shock the hell out of the media who wants us seen only by those who stand for themselves and hide in our ranks.

Speaking for myself only. I became an atheist long before I encountered any hostility from theists. Quite the contrary. I was raised in a somewhat god believing non church going family. When I was around 10 or 11, they had me go to Sunday school. The very nice christian lady didn't talk about satan, or fire and brimstone or evil atheists. Instead we were taken through genesis complete with pictures of the ark with the giraffes' heads sticking out. I'm sure there was a lot more.

After a few Sundays, I dropped out. Soon thereafter, reflecting on what I had "learned", I realized that the whole god thing was silly and on a level with santa claus and comic book characters. That was a long time ago. The more I learned about the bible, religions and science, the more certain I became that my decision was right.

I have also wondered why very intelligent people could believe in such things. I know many religious people. What I have found is that religion is indoctrinated into the minds of children before they learn to walk or talk. It is like learning your native language. Once embedded, it's hard to overcome.

 

[jenny1972]

Thoughts are real but the contents of those thoughts might not be accurate.

That's the difference.

right thoughts can be either accurate or inaccurate we determine the value of the thoughts based on experience and if the thought is supported and other factors

 

[Colter]

The Dictionary of Phrases per Colter

True Science

Any science that does not disagree with Colter's interpretation of the bible​

Atheistic science

Any science that disagrees with Colter's interpretation of the bible​

True Scientist

Any scientist that pursues True Science (see above)​

Atheistic scientist

Any scientist that pursues Atheistic Science (see above)​

Glad we cleared that up.

You are projecting your own habit of contempt prior to investigation onto me. Run of the mill knee-jerk atheist.

"The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy." UB 1955​

​

 

[jenny1972]

Link one miracle that has been confirmed.

we cant post links here just go to google and type in the words 'confirmed miracle'

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

right thoughts can be either accurate or inaccurate we determine the value of the thoughts based on experience and if the thought is supported and other factors

So if you determine that your experience is valid and a Hindu's determines their personal experience in regards to Hanuman is valid, which one of you is correct?