The origins of atheism

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

This is an appeal to populous fallacy. There are over a billion Hindus in the world, over a billion Muslims who have had personal experiences similar to yours. What makes yours any more true than theirs?



Personal experience is not evidence in the courts. If you were on trial for murder, should you be convicted because I said I have a strong feeling that you did it?

Wrong, the personal experience (judgment) of the 12 jurists in examining the evidence (THEIR strong feelings) leads to a verdict that either frees the person or leads to their execution. But that does not mean that they are correct. We are all fallible in our judgments.

If one is intellectually honest about religion, one should examine the Hindu, Muslim, and other faiths because of their popularity. They are popular for good reasons that many brilliant people have accepted. You may not agree with their reasons but you cannot simply disrespect the view of billions without examining in some depth their claims, not and still have any integrity in your opinion about issues of religion and faith.

 

[AV1611VET]

Using a cake as an example is an incomplete comparison anyway. You're implying that new scientific discoveries are some how bad. You're wrong.

I'm pointing out that science runs on trial-and-error, while at the same time, venerating their errors in the name of progress.

 

[Colter]

Science goes where the evidence takes it. Religion stays the same even when evidence contradicts it. I'll take science every day of the week.

Using a cake as an example is an incomplete comparison anyway. You're implying that new scientific discoveries are some how bad. You're wrong.

Sincere religion does not avoid critisicm, it goes where the truth leads.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

And wrong.

Imagine someone asking you to bake a cake, and it was baked the way science runs:

1. Oops! Left out an ingredient!
2. Oops! Those eating it are turning into deformities!
3. Oops! I made my cake too small! Now it's just one among thousands of other mini-cakes!
4. "Don't worry folks. We're never satisfied with our cakes! No one is perfect and omniscient! We'll keep trying!"
5. Oops! I just dropped my cake! Don't worry! We'll clean it up!
6. Oops! Another cake shows this wasn't really a cake in the first place! We thought it was!

And all the time this is going on, the chefs are getting prizes for their cakes!

Science is wrong? Science is incremental, always learning. But to say that the scientific method (science) is wrong is to deny the existence and value of technology, medicine, etc. etc., none of which could exist without it. This computer, this internet, your car, your smart phone all prove that science is effective. You will have to define what you mean by "wrong" because unless you use some off-the-wall definition, you most certainly are mistaken.

Go live like they did in the Stone Age for a year and then tell me science is wrong.

 

[jenny1972]

Surely an omniscient God with such an important message would have a better way of teaching than through personal experience. Seems petty.

what could possibly be more convincing than God revealing Himself to individuals individually? there have been physical miracles but these have proven to be unconvincing for the people who are agressively against the concept of there being a God but there really is nothing more convincing that personal experience is there? instead of closing your mind to the possibility just be a seeker unless your confident that you have the universe all figured out scientists do not even have such confidence they know from experience that discovery is ongoing and there is still a lot to be learned yet and so at the very least have the openmindedness of a scientist.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

But that does not mean that they are correct. We are all fallible in our judgments.

So you could be wrong about yours then?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

what could possibly be more convincing than God revealing Himself to individuals individually? there have been physical miracles but these have proven to be unconvincing for the people who are agressively against the concept of there being a God but there really is nothing more convincing that personal experience is there? instead of closing your mind to the possibility just be a seeker unless your confident that you have the universe all figured out scientists do not even have such confidence they know from experience that discovery is ongoing and there is still a lot to be learned yet at least have the openmindedness of a scientist.

Link me one that has been confirmed and has video evidence.

When it comes to miracles, ask yourself this question. What is more likely: That the laws of nature have been suspended in your favor and in a way you approve or you have made a mistake?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So you could be wrong about yours then?

No one believes anything strongly and thinks they are wrong! Or they would not hold that belief. But from another's point of view, of course I could be wrong. I am not God.

 

[Belk]

If you are not open to the best selling book of all time and the witness of hundreds of thousands who have the something that you are missing...then the "nothing" is on you.

Argument from popularity? Come sir I expect better from those who claim to hold the truth.

 

[aus22]

Because I live in a different country (Australia ) it is hard to keep up with all the posts. Many are made while I was asleep.
To answer the replies I found/ Eico it is true some Nazies were Christians but the leaders were Atheist . Beck I am aware that some who pratise an eastern religion claim to be Atheist. However the ones I met ae religious and believe in spiritual things. Therefore I regard your wife as religious.
In My faith Catholic a death bed confession does not save you from punishment for sins in Purgatory.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Not a satisfactory answer. Surely an omniscient God with such an important message would have a better way of teaching than through personal experience. Seems petty.

Only if personal relationships are petty. Maybe for you they are. If God is really a personal God who wants to relate to His created human beings, then providing a very personal and convincing experience makes total sense. Ultimately God does not want obedient robots but family and friends-- children of God who can truly relate to Him.

 

[Belk]

No one believes anything strongly and thinks they are wrong! Or they would not hold that belief. But from another's point of view, of course I could be wrong. I am not God.

You would be surprised how many I have heard deny the possibility. Kudos.

 

[jenny1972]

When it comes to miracles, ask yourself this question. What is more likely: That the laws of nature have been suspended in your favor and in a way you approve or you have made a mistake?

just what i said nothing will convince you unless you seen and experienced a miracle yourself with your own eyes ? and why would you believe any video evidence i presented you ? or pictures or testinony of a multitude of people or any other form of evidence simply nothing is going to convince you until you experience it yourself when i experienced God i did not have the debate within myself what is more likely this or that? there is no debate you are just convinced i know you dont understand just be an openminded scientist and recognize that you dont have everything figured out about the universe ok.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Argument from popularity? Come sir I expect better from those who claim to hold the truth.

Although the billions who believe and testify to its effectiveness in their lives will not move you, perhaps you would be willing to examine the evidence. I invite readers to examine Josh McDowell’s “Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” Vol. I & 2. It is about objective scientific evidence as well as the opinions of many of the most intelligent and respected humans on the planet. I can predict that you will not do so because of the evidence here that you no longer have an open mind.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Only if personal relationships are petty. Maybe for you they are.

That's an unfair judgement to suggest the possibility that personal relationships are petty to me. The difference is, my personal relationships (Friends, family, girlfriend) are physical. I can see them, touch them, hear them (Not a voice in my head).

Ultimately God does not want obedient robots but family and friends-- children of God who can truly relate to Him.

If God exists and his message is so important, he could reveal himself in the sky to everyone simultaneously. Then people can stop killing eachother over what version of God is correct. He either can't do this or doesn't care to.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

I invite readers to examine Josh McDowell’s “Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” Vol. I & 2. It is about objective scientific evidence as well as the opinions of many of the most intelligent and respected humans on the planet. I can predict that you will not do so because of the evidence here that you no longer have an open mind.

Read it. It's a big pile of logical fallacies.

 

[Davian]

And wrong.

Imagine someone asking you to bake a cake, and it was baked the way science runs:

1. Oops! Left out an ingredient!
2. Oops! Those eating it are turning into deformities!
3. Oops! I made my cake too small! Now it's just one among thousands of other mini-cakes!
4. "Don't worry folks. We're never satisfied with our cakes! No one is perfect and omniscient! We'll keep trying!"
5. Oops! I just dropped my cake! Don't worry! We'll clean it up!
6. Oops! Another cake shows this wasn't really a cake in the first place! We thought it was!

And all the time this is going on, the chefs are getting prizes for their cakes!

And the way theology runs, the cake is a lie.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the+cake+is+a+lie

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

And the way theology runs, the cake is a lie.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the+cake+is+a+lie

One of my favorite video games.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

That's an unfair judgement to suggest the possibility that personal relationships are petty to me. The difference is, my personal relationships (Friends, family, girlfriend) are physical. I can see them, touch them, hear them (Not a voice in my head).



If God exists and his message is so important, he could reveal himself in the sky to everyone simultaneously. Then people can stop killing eachother over what version of God is correct. He either can't do this or doesn't care to.

You are assuming that God does not have a much better plan than what you suggest. His plan is working just fine; He just has much more patience than human beings. He uses the prophets and apostles through the scriptures; it is His "message in the sky" so to speak, available to you today if you wish.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,'' declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish,so that it yields seed for the sower and bread to the eater,so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire, and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:8-11, NIV) And this same Word tells us that not all will believe, that the chosen are few.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

You are assuming that God does not have a much better plan than what you suggest. His plan is working just fine; He just has much more patience than human beings. He uses the prophets and apostles through the scriptures; it is His "message in the sky" so to speak, available to you today if you wish.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,'' declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish,so that it yields seed for the sower and bread to the eater,so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, but will accomplish what I desire, and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:8-11, NIV) And this same Word tells us that not all will believe, that the chosen are few.

Well scripture is the claim, not evidence. Can you demonstrate it to be true?