The origins of atheism

[ToddNotTodd]

Wouldn't you have to know it's unknowable in order to admit it's unknowable? The fact is we don't know if it's unknowable, therefore, it's reasonable to assume it's knowable.

Nooooo, it's only reasonable to not assume anything. Which leads to a disbelief statement (I do not believe X is knowable).

 

[gord44]

Wouldn't you have to know it's unknowable in order to admit it's unknowable? The fact is we don't know if it's unknowable, therefore, it's reasonable to assume it's knowable.

Can't go either way with any certainty. No one 'knows it all yet' so I would have to assume, using my senses and reason that it is most likely unknowable by humans. So far there isn't any observable evidence, despite science and religions best efforts, that everything is knowable by a human. As I said though, this may not be so with a god per see, as their nature may allow for all things to be known to them.

 

[ecco]

An eternal infinite God explains more about our personal and collective existence than any of those other things, thus is the most reasonable answer to where the truth about existence will come from.

Flashback a few centuries...
What causes lightning?
Goddidit!

Wrong then, wrong now.

 

[Chriliman]

You're not employing logic at all. Quite the opposite. And you didn't "show" anything.

Once again...

For ANY given proposition where there isn't good enough evidence to make a determination, the only rational response is disbelief. Neither asserting that it is true OR asserting that it's false are rational.

I know this. All the other atheists here know this. My eight year old knows this. I could probably teach my parrot to understand this. But somehow you're still not getting it.

And even though you keep dodging it, I'm going to keep asking it:

What good evidence to you have that any god exists?

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying I have personal evidence that confirms the truth. If I know something to be true but can't prove it, it's then up to you to believe me based on how reasonable my explanation is of what is true.

So far you can't find any valid reason to think that my claim is untrue that God has and is and will reveal the truth behind existence. Since you can't find a valid reason to think I'm lying, then it's up to you to believe me or be left in the dark regarding the truth. There will be physical evidence in the future that will prove this, but you're not going to like it when it comes because it will prove you wrong and you're going to have to deal with that.

Pretty basic crime scene investigation ability.

 

[Foxhole87]

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying I have personal evidence that confirms the truth. If I know something to be true but can't prove it, it's then up to you to believe me based on how reasonable my explanation is of what is true.

So far you can't find any valid reason to think that my claim is untrue that God has and is and will reveal the truth behind existence. Since you can't find a valid reason to think I'm lying, then it's up to you to believe me or be left in the dark regarding the truth. There will be physical evidence in the future that will prove this, but you're not going to like it when it comes because it will prove you wrong and you're going to have to deal with that.

Pretty basic crime scene investigation ability.

You seem to not understand the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent".

 

[Davian]

Atheist do believe things, they believe in a Godless Universe.

Or, they don't, any more than they believe in a pixie-less universe. Your mind-reading hat must have low batteries.

Mind-Reading Hat

• Davian
• Jul 30, 2015

They promote their unbelief by joining Christian forums

Or, they join to see if there is anything to these god beliefs, or will they just be met with arrogance and condescension.

to pester believers.

Is it your expectation that this philosophy forum is to act as an echo chamber for your religious assertions?

Atheists are often rebellious non-conformists who ironically all seem to conform to the same way of thinking.

You must get that hat checked out.

Mind-Reading Hat

• Davian
• Jul 30, 2015

I have a friend who is a very bright former Atheist, he considered himself a "professional Atheist" spending so much time debunking believers. Then he ran into a problem that overwhelmed him, finally a chink in the wall his ego had built around him allowed a completely unknown, unanticipated light to shine in. He was reborn. One day that may happen to you.

That he became a believer does nothing to establish the veracity of any god beliefs.

 

[gord44]

...

 

[jenny1972]

" Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. " (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214) It is interesting that Einstein refers to the 'music of the spheres', a perfect description of the spherical standing wave structure of matter in Space

 

[LynnC]

Do atheists believe in the Resurrection, angels, or spirits?

Acts 23:8a For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit:

Hmm, an interesting question I hope to hear the answer to.

 

[gord44]

Hmm, an interesting question I hope to hear the answer to.

Not an atheist but I would have to say a big not sure or probably not to all that.

Resurrection actually makes sense most of all in the idea of an afterlife. I believe that all consciousness and personality is in the brain, so when the brain dies, so does the person. Christianity's idea of the resurrection solves this problem by saying supernaturally the brain is made alive again, hence consciousness after death.

For angels, I haven't seen one, so probably not, but I used to work with them in a variety of rituals when I was into various forms of spirituality. Same goes for spirits I suppose.

 

[quatona]

" Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. "

Well, even if I wanted to be fanatical about something - atheism cannot possibly provide me with anything to be fanatical about.
Thus, when an atheist is fanatical about something, it´s certainly not his atheism.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying I have personal evidence that confirms the truth. If I know something to be true but can't prove it, it's then up to you to believe me based on how reasonable my explanation is of what is true.

So far you can't find any valid reason to think that my claim is untrue that God has and is and will reveal the truth behind existence. Since you can't find a valid reason to think I'm lying, then it's up to you to believe me or be left in the dark regarding the truth. There will be physical evidence in the future that will prove this, but you're not going to like it when it comes because it will prove you wrong and you're going to have to deal with that.

Pretty basic crime scene investigation ability.

Ah, so we're down to the "You'll get yours in the end" portion of the discussion, which tends to happen when Christians can't adequately argue their points. I see it all the time.

A couple of things:

If a Hindu discusses how they know for a fact that Ganesha is real because they've had a "personal experience" with him, I'm guessing you'd disbelieve them. So you can understand why I'd most likely disbelieve you if you related your personal story. The reasonableness of your explanation doesn't apply if you can't give good reasons as to why you're correct in thinking that you've had an actual experience with an existing deity.

Not having valid reasons to conclusively believe your personal story isn't true doesn't mean anyone should believe it is true. I've been saying that all along. Which begs the question - why are you here telling any of us anything at all if it won't persuade any rational person to believe it? Are you hoping to convert some irrational atheists?

 

[LynnC]

I wasn't. I had to be told that a "God" exists when I was a little child. I still don't "know" that a God (or whatever "greater" conscious entity) exists.

Hi Mark,
Surely you must have wondered where you came from, why you were here, how you came to be?
This is the 'knowing' that I speak of. The built in knowing that we are born with, that something had to have created all this... created life.
and so begins the search for explanation, called life.

I like the ideal of rules. I'm not some lawless anarchist. I'm not someone who wants to dispense with morality and declare that anything goes.

What do you think dictates that sense of morality and law?
It is that inner voice which is God living in you.

I've heard that so often, that is seemingly the Christian Party Line.

That is interesting because I can't say that I've heard it.
As far as I am concerned, it is my own original thought.


eudaimonia,

Hmmm, I looked that word up... it applies to my statement above.

I have not decided if I am a spirit on a human journey, or a human on a spiritual journey.

Peace and blessings to you.

 

[Chriliman]

Ah, so we're down to the "You'll get yours in the end" portion of the discussion, which tends to happen when Christians can't adequately argue their points. I see it all the time.

A couple of things:

If a Hindu discusses how they know for a fact that Ganesha is real because they've had a "personal experience" with him, I'm guessing you'd disbelieve them. So you can understand why I'd most likely disbelieve you if you related your personal story. The reasonableness of your explanation doesn't apply if you can't give good reasons as to why you're correct in thinking that you've had an actual experience with an existing deity.

Not having valid reasons to conclusively believe your personal story isn't true doesn't mean anyone should believe it is true. I've been saying that all along. Which begs the question - why are you here telling any of us anything at all if it won't persuade any rational person to believe it? Are you hoping to convert some irrational atheists?

I've said many times I can't force you to believe anything. I can only rationaly explain what I believe to be true. it's up to you to believe me. If you don't believe me that's fine for now. If you desire to find the truth about whether or not God exists and you haven't already determined that you'll never believe in God then I have hope that you will find the truth.

Hope that atheists will find the truth is really what it comes down to for me. Is that a bad thing to hope for?

 

[Oafman]

Hi Mark,
Surely you must have wondered where you came from, why you were here, how you came to be?
This is the 'knowing' that I speak of. The built in knowing that we are born with, that something had to have created all this... created life.
and so begins the search for explanation, called life.

Asking existential questions is evidence of a mind capable of doing so, and nothing more.

What do you think dictates that sense of morality and law?
It is that inner voice which is God living in you.

If that were true, then why has my opinion on certain moral questions changed as I've become older?

 

[Chris B]

As long as you have faith in truth, meaning you believe there is a truth that will show how every other way of thinking and believing is false, then I see no need to match our epistemologies against each other because I have hope that you will find that truth.

And in reciprocation am I allowed to have equal hope that you will find that truth too?

Or is that hope just a long-winded way of saying that you think you've got it, and that I've got it wrong?
If this latter, and if you duck comparing epistemologies, the arrogance just comes unappealingly oozing out all over the place.

 

[LynnC]

Hi Lynn, well, I can appreciate what you are saying, the ISIS movement is horrific to us......But sadly, what they are doing is no different that the God of Old Testament Judaism if you are familiar with the atrocities blamed on him committed by men. The ISIS people get their Ideas from their scripture book.

For example:

In Genesis 7:21-23 God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and animals.

In Exodus 12:29 God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

In Numbers 16:41-49 the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

In 1 Samuel 6:19 God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant.

In Numbers 31:7-18 the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they are allowed to rape as spoils of war.

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.

Greetings Colter,
It is true that islam(i.e., Muhammad) revives the God of the old testament, and ignores the message of Yshwe, the 'new thing' which God chose to do... showing, rather than His wrath, His Love.
This is my main objection to islam.
I follow Yswhe (known as Jesus), as I believe we are meant to do.

In another thread I wrote about how it is hard to determine...
'God's chosen people'?
or 'seed of satan'?

Yshwe when speaking to the Hebrews of His time did say...
'ye are of your father the devil'

There were Israelites(or Jews) that followed Yshwe, the Way, the Truth, and the Life...
and there were those that were blind to His message, and followed the ruler of this world... the deceiver, satan.

Either way, we see the forces of evil in this world,
as well as the forces of good.
For the battle is truly God's...
for we truly,
wrestle ... against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world...

The way we see who is on what side, is by the words of Yshwe...
'ye will know them by their fruits'

Peace and blessings to you.

 

[LynnC]

Asking existential questions is evidence of a mind capable of doing so, and nothing more.

If that were true, then why has my opinion on certain moral questions changed as I've become older?

Hi Oafman,
... because of the influences of this world...
As we grow older we often have less of God, more of ourselves... wanting our own desires, following our own sinful wills.

 

[Chris B]

Then which one is myopic in your estimation?

The scientific realm, or the spiritual realm?

They both can be but the one big difference: science actually has a mechanism for applying self-criticism and correction.
When did you last hear of a religion or spiritual movement saying "Whoops, we've been getting this wrong for the past few hundred years, we're gong to have to think again"?
Well, without creating a schism, that is.

 

[Oafman]

Hi Oafman,
... because of the influences of this world...
As we grow older we often have less of God, more of ourselves... wanting our own desires, following our own sinful wills.

People become more 'sinful' as they get older? I'm not sure I buy that. I mean, obviously I don't believe in the concept of sin, as a Christian would describe it, but I don't believe people become more immoral as they age, or more selfish.