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What do the Eastern Orthodox churches teach about Hell?

Wryetui

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I have also a question that came up from a catholic priest and I couldn't answer:

1. If Hell and Heaven are different states of the soul and are not actually places, why in the apostles creed we say that Jesus descended on hell?

2. If the Orthodox Church doesn't believe on apocatastasis why do we pray for the dead so they can get out of Hell? If Hell is eternal and we don't have a purgatory, then we shouldn't pray for those in Hell.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Wasn't apokastasis condemned by an Oecumenical or General Council of the Church? I know that a group of Origenists were condemned for their beliefs (e.g., prenatal existence of souls, etc.). Besides a doctrine denying the duration of Hell as being perpetual would deny our Blessed Lord's words in holy Writ that Hell is where there shall be "perpetual gnashing of teeth" forever, it would seem.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I was told that we do not have a teaching that a soul, once departed, if condemned, can certainly be "converted" or "saved". I was told that we basically do not have a position on whether or not this is possible - that we simply pray for God's mercy and forgiveness for a soul, because we love them, and leave it to God how that prayer is to be answered.

And perhaps it can have an effect (in God's knowledge that we would pray) in being answered before we prayed it in time. And they have not yet faced the final judgment, so who knows what will happen? Maybe God can judge them differently, maybe not. It is not our place to say, as judgment always belongs to God. We simply pray and ask, in love. That is our only place in this.

I would appreciate correction if I have misunderstood anything.
 
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buzuxi02

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I have also a question that came up from a catholic priest and I couldn't answer:

1. If Hell and Heaven are different states of the soul and are not actually places, why in the apostles creed we say that Jesus descended on hell?

2. If the Orthodox Church doesn't believe on apocatastasis why do we pray for the dead so they can get out of Hell? If Hell is eternal and we don't have a purgatory, then we shouldn't pray for those in Hell.

1. Jesus descended into Hades, it uses the greek understanding where Hades is a place with demarcations, Tartarus was a region in Hades with the vast majority going to a gloomy place of utter neutrality.

2. You dont need to pray for those in purgatory. According to the roman teaching everyone in purgatory is assured of their salvation whether you pray for them or curse them. Prayers just release them from the fire faster, but they will be eventually released regardless.

Prayers for the dead help in bringing relief to the condemned. I believe it was St Macarius who found the skull of a pagan which spoke and said that the prayers help him bringing relief.
Secondly the Church presupposes that the prayers for the dead are for the pious already in heaven. Because love is infinite these prayers help us here on earth by bringing remembrance the virtuous aspects of the person.
 
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Isaac32

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I have also a question that came up from a catholic priest and I couldn't answer:

1. If Hell and Heaven are different states of the soul and are not actually places, why in the apostles creed we say that Jesus descended on hell?
Metaphorical language. We also believe Christ "ascended into heaven," but that doesn't mean heaven is physically above us.

2. If the Orthodox Church doesn't believe on apocatastasis why do we pray for the dead so they can get out of Hell? If Hell is eternal and we don't have a purgatory, then we shouldn't pray for those in Hell.
Two things: 1. It is good to hope for the salvation of all, whether or not that hope will be actualized. 2. There is an important distinction between hades and gehenna, the final, eternal hell-state (may not even a bird know such suffering). Nobody is in eternal hell yet because the final judgment hasn't occurred. Until the final judgment they experience a foretaste of either heaven or hell, but it is possible for those experiencing a foretaste of hell to obtain salvation. Thus we continue to hope and pray that it will be as sparsely populated as possible.
 
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Isaac32

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Wasn't apokastasis condemned by an Oecumenical or General Council of the Church? I know that a group of Origenists were condemned for their beliefs (e.g., prenatal existence of souls, etc.). Besides a doctrine denying the duration of Hell as being perpetual would deny our Blessed Lord's words in holy Writ that Hell is where there shall be "perpetual gnashing of teeth" forever, it would seem.
Some say it was, but if you actually read the condemnations against Origen that were actually decreed during the 5th E.C. it isn't so clear. What seems to be condemned is not apokatastasis in general, but Origen's particular flavor.
 
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Wryetui

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So, the soul, after the body dies, goes to the Hades or the Sheol? And what is that? Like a third state or like a place? Is it where also the jews think they will go? Is it where the justs within the OT went?

I am sorry for asking too much but I am curious because, to my shame, I didn't know about this...
 
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~Anastasia~

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So, the soul, after the body dies, goes to the Hades or the Sheol? And what is that? Like a third state or like a place? Is it where also the jews think they will go? Is it where the justs within the OT went?

I am sorry for asking too much but I am curious because, to my shame, I didn't know about this...
Isn't Hades empty now?

I never got a very precise answer to "where" the souls go now ... but I am told simply that they experience a "foretaste" of what they can expect after the judgment. But ... I do not know where. If the Saints can intercede for us, the assumption must be that they are connected to Christ though - but I don't know that that necessarily means a "place" ...

I'm interested to know if there is more of an answer than this as well. I've had to just leave it at that - it's as much as I've been given. :)
 
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Wryetui

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Isn't Hades empty now?

I never got a very precise answer to "where" the souls go now ... but I am told simply that they experience a "foretaste" of what they can expect after the judgment. But ... I do not know where. If the Saints can intercede for us, the assumption must be that they are connected to Christ though - but I don't know that that necessarily means a "place" ...

I'm interested to know if there is more of an answer than this as well. I've had to just leave it at that - it's as much as I've been given. :)
So I thought, in fact, the doors Christ is stepping at in the icon of the Resurrection I thought were Hades's.
 
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buzuxi02

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Hades was just a generic name for the abode of the dead. Before Christ all were detained by the devil in that place. Hades, paradise, place of comfort, place of torment, tartarus, are all the same place. Thats why when the rich man although being carried off to Hades lifted his eyes and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. After Christ's descent into Hades the devil was bound and the inmates no longer ran the asylum.

In Greek thought, Hades was a place divided into many regions, the gloomiest darkest place was called tartarus mentioned in 2Pet 2.4, Jude 6,13. Then you had places for the common man and a blissful place for the heroic etc.
St. Hippolytus gives a very long descriptive christianized version of this Hades where he says both the righteous and the unrighteous are sent their, part of the excerpt:

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
....a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light.
St Mark of Ephesus in one of his writings describes this Hades of darkness and light more as a state of being then a locality. When Christ destroyed the gates of Hades the righteous felt the divine light but the unrighteous will continue to experience that light as darkness. From Job 10.20-22 :

Are not my days few?
Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,
21 Before I go to the place from which I shall not return,

To the land of darkness and the shadow of death,
22 A land as dark as darkness itself,

As the shadow of death, without any order,
Where even the light is like darkness.’”
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Catholic Church says that God is everywhere. So when it says in the Catechism that someone in Hell experiences "eternal separation from God" I think it means separation from the fullness of God's presence rather than a complete absence from it.

well, we would say hell is not a deprivation of God at all. those in hell get the fullness of His presence, and that is what causes the torment. the separation is a relational one. it is the vain attempt to flee from an omnipresent God.
 
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~Anastasia~

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sort of, because Christ is there alive, filling it with His Light. so those there are the ones that would rather be there than paradise.
So ... then where are the righteous dead?

The quote by St. Hippolytus that buzuxi posted seem to say they ARE in Hades?

And if the Church has no determined teaching on this - that's ok. I never could get a definitive answer?

(Not trying to be argumentative - just curious if there is something more than what I've found, or something we are expected to know?)

Thanks for the reply. :)
 
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buzuxi02

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Im not sure why this is hard to grasp. When Christ told the repentant thief, Today, you will be with me in paradise and Christ descended into Hades, They were not simultaneously in two different places, paradise and hades.

When the parable says Lazarus died and was carried off to Abraham's bosom and the rich man died and went to Hades, lifting up his eyes saw the beggar. So they were not seperated by tall walls nor a different locales, only the quantity of sin enstranged them.

What is meant in Rev. 6.9-11 that the souls of the martyrs are to remain UNDER the altar for alittle while longer?
It means the fullness of bliss has not yet been realized. They are under the altar hints at hades but still among the lot of the blessed awaiting the ressurection and final judgement, Abraham's Bosom.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Im not sure why this is hard to grasp. When Christ told the repentant thief, Today, you will be with me in paradise and Christ descended into Hades, They were not simultaneously in two different places, paradise and hades.

When the parable says Lazarus died and was carried off to Abraham's bosom and the rich man died and went to Hades, lifting up his eyes saw the beggar. So they were not seperated by tall walls nor a different locales, only the quantity of sin enstranged them.

What is meant in Rev. 6.9-11 that the souls of the martyrs are to remain UNDER the altar for alittle while longer?
It means the fullness of bliss has not yet been realized. They are under the altar hints at hades but still among the lot of the blessed awaiting the ressurection and final judgement, Abraham's Bosom.
Forgive me please if my understanding seems to be slow.

But I was told ... that yes, the dead went to Hades prior to the Crucifixion, which included both those souls such as the rich man who experienced torment, and also Abraham's bosom.

But I have also been told that after the Harrowing of Hades, that it is now empty. That Christ took those righteous souls to be (with Him?) after the ascension.

So it does not seem a simple thing that souls are still in Hades/Abraham's bosom?

No need to reply if you don't wish to. Please forgive me for not understanding.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That Christ took those righteous souls to be (with Him?) after the ascension.

yes, He took the righteous with Him back to paradise. the unrighteous stayed behind. the problem for them is hades is filled with the love of God because Christ is everywhere present and filling all things. so He makes hades paradise, which is what makes hades the torment that it is.
 
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buzuxi02

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You have to remember the apostles were preaching in the roman world using concepts and terms understandable to roman gentiles.
it was understood in the greco-roman world that hades was some place in the underworld. Its where the dead dwell. There locatedwas a dreadful dark region in the lower level called tartarus, basically the basement. But there were areas for the heroes and virtuous such as the elysian fields and a place for the majority called the asphodel meadows.

So is Abrahams bosom, third heaven, paradise, place of comfort, adjectives for the same basic place?

Is place of torment, darkness with gnashing of teeth, tartarus the same place adjectives for hades?
 
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~Anastasia~

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You have to remember the apostles were preaching in the roman world using concepts and terms understandable to roman gentiles.
it was understood in the greco-roman world that hades was some place in the underworld. Its where the dead dwell. There locatedwas a dreadful dark region in the lower level called tartarus, basically the basement. But there were areas for the heroes and virtuous such as the elysian fields and a place for the majority called the asphodel meadows.

So is Abrahams bosom, third heaven, paradise, place of comfort, adjectives for the same basic place?

Is place of torment, darkness with gnashing of teeth, tartarus the same place adjectives for hades?

Yes, many words. And on top of that, I've been taught this before becoming Orthodox, and somewhat after. And it's not a thing that concerns me greatly, so I try to remember, but I've not given it careful study. Because of all of these things, it does confuse me a bit.

I remember being taught - and I thought Orthodoxy somewhat confirmed - that there was a place for the dead (most often referred to as Hades or simply "the grave" in Scripture) where all went before Christ was crucified. And that that place had different "areas" such that some were in torment, and some were in Abraham's bosom.

I was also taught that after the Resurrection, the righteous dead were with Christ "in paradise" Most often it was simply regarded as spirits being with God in heaven until the final judgement - but some get a little fuzzy on this. Orthodoxy has never told me definitively that departed righteous are in heaven with God.

Hell, the lake of fire, gehenna, and the place with the gnashing of teeth was always taught to be the place of the "unsaved" after the final judgment. Nothing was usually mentioned about where the souls of the condemned reside between death and judgment.

How much of this Orthodoxy affirms a little unsure of. I get VERY tenuous answers when I ask my priest. He will only affirm that souls experience a foretaste of what they will experience after the final judgment, and that the Saints are able to be connected with Christ in such a way that they are aware of our requests for intercession, and that God hears their prayers.

If that's as far as we go, I'm ok with that. I just wanted to take the chance to get some input to know where to draw the lines. But every time I hear anything, it's either not very much (as my priest tells me) or else it's nearly always contradicted by someone else in the Church. So I'm thinking we may not have a perfect consensus on much of anything?

I hope that explains why I ask. But I'm ok with not knowing more than Father M has told me. If that's what the Church teaches, then I'm ok with that. :)
 
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buzuxi02

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There is a really good book on this written by the late archbishop Athenagoras Cavadas, answers alot of the questions on what this Hades is etc:
The World Beyond the Grave: Or the After Life - Athenagoras Cavadas

Hades signifies the underground or the abyss, the word heaven means heights or elevations. Jesus said in my Father's house there are many mansions refering to heavens. Heaven and Hades are presented as polar opposites but probably more because of cultural usage. Certain times the terminology is interchangeable. Hades can just be a generic 'hereafter' and other times its meant as that place where souls go which is not heaven, etc. Likewise heaven is mostly where the throne of God is, but can be used as an expanse space where demons congregate.
Probably in pagan roman times gentiles would have only been familiar with gods residing in an elevated altitute (heaven)- off limits to mere mortals, for example the greeks gods were said to reside in the highest peak in greece of Mt Olympos. For the most part everyone else went to the underworld (where the souls had to cross the river styx with a guide which is why i said Hippolytus account is a christianized version of these myths).

The OT speaks of these multiple heavenly realms (see Deut 10.14, 2 Chron 6.18, 1 Kings 8.27)
In St Paul epistle the the Corinthians third heaven and paradise is one and the same (see 2 Cor 12.2-4). Paul also teaches that in the lower heavens the demons reside

in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. (Eph 2.2)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.(Eph 6.12)

Metropolitan Hilarion has an essay online on this subject:
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Christ the Conqueror of Hell » Theology and Spirituality » Articles in English » OrthodoxEurope.org
 
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buzuxi02

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How much of this Orthodoxy affirms a little unsure of. I get VERY tenuous answers when I ask my priest. He will only affirm that souls experience a foretaste of what they will experience after the final judgment, and that the Saints are able to be connected with Christ in such a way that they are aware of our requests for intercession, and that God hears their prayers.

This is true. There is no entering the fullness of that experience apart from the resurected body (the Theotokos is the only one).

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (heb 11.39-40)

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held..... And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev 6.9,11)
 
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