Universal reconciliation

[anonymouswho]

Without going way off thread, think about it. Not everything has to be explicitly spelled out in scripture in order to say it must be so. If Enoch and Elijah are not "with Him" then where are they (where did He take them) and what would be the point of the story showing God taking them if not to say it must be in keeping with, indeed represent a fulfillment of for those two, part of the chief reason we exist?

They are dead my friend. Yeshua is the only Man that has ever ascended to heaven.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" John 3:13

If they went to Heaven without Messiah being Resurrected, then what was the point of the Resurrection. I think it would be wise to hold to the importance of the Resurrection than to assume Enoch and Elijah were taken somewhere that the Scriptures do not explicitly imply.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

So if we say God made us to know, love, serve and share eternally in His Happiness, then whatever we believe happened to those two has to be in line with that purpose. And it is also in keeping to say if someone is in totally perfect a relationship with God, as it is suggested by the record of God's action at the end of the life of those two, that He would spare them a physical death. Clearly being spared death was His intention for Adam because only after Adam's sin did God act to remove the POTENTIAL for immortality from him (Son of God, the Tree of Life). So until Adam sin, he too would have enjoyed the same perfect harmony with God (and internally body, soul and mind) that allowed Enoch and Elijah their privilege by Grace.

I'm sorry my friend, I'm not sure I understand what this means. If God intended Adam to live forever, then Adam would have lived forever. There really is no other option.

Neither Enoch nor Elijah were sinless. If they committed one sin, then they died. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Not one is righteous. If anyone says they have no sin, they are a liar and make God out to be a liar. Only Yeshua has lived a sinless life, and only Yeshua has been Resurrected. To say there are people in heaven or hell right now would imply that the Resurrection has already happened and continues to happen when people die.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." 2 Timothy 2:15

Hymenaeus taught this, and Paul did something to him that would be pretty hard for Orthodoxy to explain:

"Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." 1 Timothy 1:20

Which bring up another point. Did Paul deliver them to Satan knowing that doing this could possibly cause them to be subjected to eternal torment, or did he do this so that they might learn?

So unless one wants to imagine another purpose for our existence and/or perhaps a different one for people like Enoch and Elijah, then the suggested reason for their special treatment is in line with that legend about them and the stated traditional/orthodox purpose of God making man. BTW to prevent the coming protests, Enoch and Elijah still need Jesus as a redeemer (as would anyone similarly treated before His Resurrection), and the orthodox position of His being God is one reason the Grace from His Sacrifice can be applied eternally (forward and backward in time) - whereas the Sacrifice of just a man could not.

Actually, I do imagine a different purpose for our existence. The first is, to have the knowledge of Good and Evil so that God can work within us to give us the Wisdom and Prudence to choose only Good, that we may be made in His Image and after His likeness. This is the overall purpose, but as far as each of our individual lives go, I have several verses that explain this:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:6

"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." James 4:14

Also, I would like to protest that this denies Yeshua as the Redeemer. This says that there is another Way; that through our works we can save ourselves. I also have trouble understanding how God dying for our sins makes it an eternal sacrifice. I've never heard of an eternal sacrifice before. Nor have I heard of "potential for immortality".

I'm sorry friend, I just don't see why Enoch and Elijah being dead has anything to do with our "purpose". We live, we die, and God has promised to Resurrect us from the dead. Do the people in heaven get Resurrected, and then seconds later return to heaven? What is the point of the Resurrection if everyone is already where they are going to spend eternity anyways? Why is there a Day appointed to Judge the world, if God has already Judged and set each man where they will be?

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[2KnowHim]

Enoch is a very interesting person to meditate on before The Lord.
First of all....His name means: initiated, into the narrow way of Discipline.
Then through the process of walking and learning from God, he was caught up, or you could say he was taken and the other left...he did not taste death.

Basically he was the beginning or the introduction, of learning from God.
Enoch is a type or picture of what God had in mind for us through His Son, in the Giving of His Spirit from the beginning. The washing of the water of The Word. In typology water baptism.

 

[2KnowHim]

Elijah is associated with a chariot of fire and a whirlwind and was caught up.
His name means: God of Jehovah, in typology he would represent baptism through fire and power from on high.
He is also The Prophet of God, The testimony of Jesus Christ IS The Spirit of Prophecy.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

They are dead my friend. Yeshua is the only Man that has ever ascended to heaven.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" John 3:13

If they went to Heaven without Messiah being Resurrected, then what was the point of the Resurrection. I think it would be wise to hold to the importance of the Resurrection than to assume Enoch and Elijah were taken somewhere that the Scriptures do not explicitly imply.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2



I'm sorry my friend, I'm not sure I understand what this means. If God intended Adam to live forever, then Adam would have lived forever. There really is no other option.

Neither Enoch nor Elijah were sinless. If they committed one sin, then they died. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Not one is righteous. If anyone says they have no sin, they are a liar and make God out to be a liar. Only Yeshua has lived a sinless life, and only Yeshua has been Resurrected. To say there are people in heaven or hell right now would imply that the Resurrection has already happened and continues to happen when people die.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." 2 Timothy 2:15

Hymenaeus taught this, and Paul did something to him that would be pretty hard for Orthodoxy to explain:

"Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." 1 Timothy 1:20

Which bring up another point. Did Paul deliver them to Satan knowing that doing this could possibly cause them to be subjected to eternal torment, or did he do this so that they might learn?



Actually, I do imagine a different purpose for our existence. The first is, to have the knowledge of Good and Evil so that God can work within us to give us the Wisdom and Prudence to choose only Good, that we may be made in His Image and after His likeness. This is the overall purpose, but as far as each of our individual lives go, I have several verses that explain this:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:6

"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away." James 4:14

Also, I would like to protest that this denies Yeshua as the Redeemer. This says that there is another Way; that through our works we can save ourselves. I also have trouble understanding how God dying for our sins makes it an eternal sacrifice. I've never heard of an eternal sacrifice before. Nor have I heard of "potential for immortality".

I'm sorry friend, I just don't see why Enoch and Elijah being dead has anything to do with our "purpose". We live, we die, and God has promised to Resurrect us from the dead. Do the people in heaven get Resurrected, and then seconds later return to heaven? What is the point of the Resurrection if everyone is already where they are going to spend eternity anyways? Why is there a Day appointed to Judge the world, if God has already Judged and set each man where they will be?

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

Well, we can agree to disagree whether there were/are exceptions for people Elijah and Enoch, maybe Moses that God made for people like them at the end of their life here. To say He could not make exceptions is to limit God. Clearly the Bible says something special happened to those men at the end of their life that represents some sort of exception compared to us average blokes. To suggest otherwise is deny what scripture plainly says. Does it mean I, as a Catholic, have to believe because the Church teaches these men (and open to possibility of "others") were "assumed" into Heaven equals they ascended like Our Lord God - no and actually that is explainable but goes beyond the topic here. If you want to ask questions about salvation, what it means to be Holy as He is holy...etc then another thread is needed.


As for immortality, most (not all) would never refute the immortality of our soul/spirit, so am thinking (hoping) we are only talking about our bodies. Clearly God put Adam in a place where he "COULD HAVE" lived (body and soul) forever as the story indicates that after he sinned Adam no longer had/was prevented from availing himself of that ability - whatever one sees the Tree of Life representing - (perhaps multiple meanings but I like the common association of the Tree of Life with the Son of God). If God had not intended for Adam to live forever, then why originally put man in a place where the free access to that potential existed?


Also, as I mentioned, it makes no sense to say God made man to share in His Eternal happiness if He did not at the same time provide the means for man (body and soul) lasting forever in order to that sharing possible. And that does not necessarily mean He created Adam immortal, but more in line with the story, He gave Adam/mankind access to the ability to live forever - which the Tree of Life represents. Adam appears to have had such access, at least until he sinned. And that temporary access to immortality is suggested as at least one explanation for the longevity attributed to our common ancestors beginning with Adam, the effect of which appears to have diminish with succeeding generations. The diminishing aspect also in keeping with the idea sin corrupting everything, including our physical bodies - death came for all by the sin of one man.


And I like the attempt at arriving at a purpose which precludes the need to say creation, including man, was originally perfect. You were the first UR here to attempt to do so - congrats. Am completing the thought, so correct if I got it wrong. The claim is God made us man imperfect in order to then "work in" us so that eventually we can reach a state where we will "be made in His Image". As I have repeatedly pointed out before in this thread to Hillsage and others, this is the end result of the UR theology - people just need time and perhaps a coach helps (Jesus)- to finally reach the point (either in this life or in Hell) to "only choose Good" so they can then be "made in His Image". I can see a need for assistance/coaching but I see no necessity in that construct for a Savior. The already stated orthodox purpose for God making man combined with our belief that our current state being a result of the sin of the first man creates a true NECESSITY for a Savior to restore us so we truly and correctly reflect the Image in which we were made.


I also see direct contradictions with such thoughts beginning with the creation story stating that He made man/Adam in His Image. Either He did or did not, apparently many UR holders here believe He did not make us in Image as the creation story states, but will one day. Some URs attempt to circumvent that by suggesting the creation story mingles talk of our past/origins with a future state, but I think that only further muddies the waters.


"Potential" in regards to immortality is a way of suggesting that the access Adam had to "the Tree of Life" was not something God gave man as part of our nature - IOW He did not make Adam's body immortal, but rather something He originally gave mankind direct access to - in order to allow man to live forever - something that sustained the body in a state of immortality - and the lasting (but diminishing because of sin) effects of that seen by (and explains) the longevity the Bible attributes t our early ancestors. It is only if we CAN (potential) live forever that talk of sharing in His Eternal Happiness makes any sense. He does not need to make us at all, so saying He wants us to share in His Eternal Happiness must mean He wants us to do so eternally - which requires we do not cease to exist as human (both body and soul - the way He made us).


Saying the Grace Jesus made possible is eternal - is my reference to the thought that that a single sacrifice is a continual sacrifice for all sin - forward and backward in time. Which BTW if all that is needed is for us to eventually with time (this life or the next in Hell) to learn by God "working in us" to only choose Good - then there really is no need for that sacrifice. Which was also one of my points regarding the UR theology negating the traditional purpose for which we say God made us.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I give up, Dr., NO where will you show me that Adam had the indwelling Spirit of The Christ, ain't gonna happen or that he walked with God, like Enoch and Elijah. The first time it mentions God walking in the Garden, Adam "Hides" himself.

So you are suggesting that the story just conveniently has God doing something unusual (walking in the Garden) rather than a common occurrence. Interesting. BTW "walking in the Garden" itself cannot represent a physical act since God has no body, but clearly Adam could see/knew God was there. No, to me the whole story has a tone of familiarity between God and Adam that suggests more that just a coincidence that God decides one day to take a stroll and Adam hides from Him. It seems much more in keeping with that whole story to believe both that whatever "walking in the Garden" means, it was common place and up until the point it is mentioned Adam had NEVER "hidden" from God. And that understanding of those words in the Creation story is also in line with the idea that people the Bible says "walked" with God are not indicating that someone strolled down the beach with Him, but it is a reference to the closeness, the unity of their relationship with God.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. I have one question for you...Can you name anything "that has life" that did not start out a seed and then grew.
Isn't this a law of life? We don't start out Grown and mature and perfect, nothing does, It Grows into.....Even our Lord was said to have "learned and Grew by the things He suffered." From the age of 12 yrs. old, all it says until He was 30 something, "Was that He Grew" that is not there for no reason.

And the tree of Life is a picture of our Lord yes, but you seem to understand it as living forever. The Life of Christ is a Quality .....Freedom, Peace, Joy, in His Spirit etc. God is the Only One who is eternal....no beginning and no end.

Even Gen.1 is in Seed form, starting out with Darkness, Not Light, this depicts what happened when Adam disobeyed God, ignorance, suffering, sorrow...etc. is in the definition of the word darkness.
Then God Speaks/brings forth His Word, The Light/Truth..And that Light has been hovering over our deep/soul since the beginning, creating us in His image and likeness.

Gen.1:26,27...is Prophecy of The End from The Beginning.
Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He calls those things that be not as thou they are. So when said "let us Create man in our image and likeness" He was speaking of The End Result, and He saw it was good. Not specifically our beginning but our End.

 

[2KnowHim]

Do you not understand The Seed principle, of going into the deep/darkness/ground, and then with the watering etc..it grows? This is what God has done in and Through His Word which is Seed.

 

[2KnowHim]

So you are suggesting that the story just conveniently has God doing something unusual (walking in the Garden) rather than a common occurrence. Interesting. BTW "walking in the Garden" itself cannot represent a physical act since God has no body, but clearly Adam could see/knew God was there. No, to me the whole story has a tone of familiarity between God and Adam that suggests more that just a coincidence that God decides one day to take a stroll and Adam hides from Him. It seems much more in keeping with that whole story to believe both that whatever "walking in the Garden" means, it was common place and up until the point it is mentioned Adam had NEVER "hidden" from God. And that understanding of those words in the Creation story is also in line with the idea that people the Bible says "walked" with God are not indicating that someone strolled down the beach with Him, but it is a reference to the closeness, the unity of their relationship with God.

Then you believe what you want to believe if you're satisfied with that then so be it. We have tried ever way we know how to communicate with you to no avail. So be it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. I have one question for you...Can you name anything "that has life" that did not start out a seed and then grew.
Isn't this a law of life? We don't start out Grown and mature and perfect, nothing does, It Grows into.....Even our Lord was said to have "learned and Grew by the things He suffered." From the age of 12 yrs. old, all it says until He was 30 something, "Was that He Grew" that is not there for no reason.

And the tree of Life is a picture of our Lord yes, but you seem to understand it as living forever. The Life of Christ is a Quality .....Freedom, Peace, Joy, in His Spirit etc. God is the Only One who is eternal....no beginning and no end.

Even Gen.1 is in Seed form, starting out with Darkness, Not Light, this depicts what happened when Adam disobeyed God, ignorance, suffering, sorrow...etc. is in the definition of the word darkness.
Then God Speaks/brings forth His Word, The Light/Truth..And that Light has been hovering over our deep/soul since the beginning, creating us in His image and likeness.

Gen.1:26,27...is Prophecy of The End from The Beginning.
Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He calls those things that be not as thou they are. So when said "let us Create man in our image and likeness" He was speaking of The End Result, and He saw it was good. Not specifically our beginning but our End.

The proper question is not whether or not we as humans start out perfect - the question was did Adam. According to many here supporting UR, no Adam was not perfect - which should lead to other questions - not the least of which should be how could it be Good to hold fault against him for what he did if he was not perfect and as a result of Adam's single cause all of this world to be cursed along with all the following generations of mankind?
If God was simply sewing seeds that needed to evolve into something that would one day be perfected - however one sees that occuring, then there is no need for such seeds to have a redeemer to restore them to state from which those same seeds were originally - as in the first seed (Adam) was originally made. In such a view everything is imperfect and just needs to evolve into perfection. So how can Jesus be seen as anything but a great example or life coach when it is admitted the race He came to help does not need help to be restored, but needs to evolve?
Those should be the type of questions one asks oneself if one is going to claim mankind was originally made imperfect and needs to "grow" into something else. The construct is more in line with Mormon thoughts regarding what they see as our "natural" progression. I guess for those one claims "get it" in this life one could kind of claim that Jesus's example should they follow Him spares/saves them from having to continue trying to "get it" in Hell.

But that is not what most Christians mean when they speak of the NECESSITY for our having a Redeemer or Savior. Great example, good life coach in the UR view yes - but even there as one allows that some don't "get" that example in this life - it is difficult to see the necessity of needing Him as a coach/example in this life when one says God allowing people more time in Hell in the next life to "get it". Which is why I keep saying the UR view seems to remove the NECESSITY of a savior for mankind.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Then you believe what you want to believe if you're satisfied with that then so be it. We have tried ever way we know how to communicate with you to no avail. So be it.

No this is not true. All that has been done here in replies by the UR side (save perhaps by only one response jugghead gave) is to explain why the orthodox view of creation, purpose of our existence, nature of God...etc does not work for those holding the UR view. I would think that it is a given those traditional views don't work for the UR view, since one has taken a view that dissolves many of those basic foundational elements of Christianity. Besides jugghead's attempt, I fail to see how anyone has presented a consistent logical view of why we are here, why God made us, that is doesn't also require some attribute of God or our need for a redeemer to change. So if there is a failure here, it is in my opinion the UR side's inability to explain how their staunch defense of it does not completely dissolve or at least muddy the other aspects of Christian beliefs mentioned because they certainly cannot stand together.

For instance, one cannot claim in the same breath that God is All Good, yet creates something less than He could have - which is just another way of saying not as good as He could have - which means imperfect - which means He caused that imperfection - and imperfection certainly being the opposite of saying it is as good as it can be - or not all good - which is another way of claiming God created evil - which is NOT congruent with saying God is Good. If someone can explain how a Creator can be Good and still be said to create evil then let's hear it. Otherwise, do not pretend that one has given a defense of such beliefs or even attempted to communicate how that makes sense for someone to spout in regarding to the creation story in order to hold a belief in UR. Simply saying it must be so or that the story/verse or whatever MIGHT be understood that way because it supports a belief in UR is not a defense of claiming something like God must have created evil.

 

[jugghead]

Not a matter of convincing, just asking how your own view makes sense to you, which neither Hillsage or yourself addressed - I see Jugghead took a stab so I will follow up with him.

Notice how the story mentions all the preparation required for Adam to be in God’s presence – like Moses was required to do…….

“And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam”

“but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man”

NOT!

Notice that prior to the fall Adam had access to the potential for immortality that was removed after he sinned. So not only does your view have an imperfect being potentially remaining in that state forever, but consider that one’s view is saying more or less, that God wanted Adam to sin (that is not a good thing BTW) so He could justify kicking him out.

This last wednesday my son called me to inform me that his mother (my x-wife, who I was still very good friends with) passed away, it was through this that the Father showed me something, you can believe what I say or you can dismiss it.

Just because something has the potential for immortality does not negate the fact that it also has the potential for death, this is proven in the death of Jesus upon the cross, Christ was sinless so by that His physical body had the potential for immortality, but it also had the potential for death.

Is the flesh perfect if it also has the potential for death? I do not believe so. Now going to the breathe of life that was breathed into Adam that made him a living soul, if Adam did not have the potential for death in that breathe (spirit) that was breathed into him, he would have been incapable of dying, but since he did .... so he did.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr.....If you're sitting inside your house and looking out your window at a parade going by, all you are going to see is what is in the frame of the window. You cannot see what's coming or what already passed by. All you can see is what is right in front of you. But, if you were to go up on the housetop you would be able to see more would you not?

Now, ...God who is Higher than any housetop, who is Known for seeing even further than that. He declares that He sees The End from The Beginning. That All ages are seen at One moment for Him. We do not see this way unless He permits it.
We who believe in UR, have been permitted to see as He sees, even if it is for only a moment. And that is not to say that we are special or anything like that. It's just that most of us, have walked away from all the teachings of Orthodoxy, and allowed Him to empty us out of those things, so that we could be filled with His Teachings. And that's what it will take. As long as you are satisfied with the orthodox teachings of the church, then you will never see these things on this side Jordan, and that's not to say that you don't love Him, or that you are wrong, or that you're not saved, so please don't misunderstand me.
I'm only saying that you won't be able to move on from where you are.

Adam was a "figure" of the one that was to come, Not the very "Image of". What does this mean to you? A type how? And Why is Jesus referred to as The Last Adam?

Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Of course this is referring to Our Lord, but Adam also "in a figure" did the same thing.
So if we have all borne the image of the first Adam, we will also bare the image of The Last.

It is All about "SEED" and it's not about "Evolving" as you say, it's about Dying, and bringing forth.
The first Adam died and brought forth Death.
The Last Adam died and brought forth Life.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

This last wednesday my son called me to inform me that his mother (my x-wife, who I was still very good friends with) passed away, it was through this that the Father showed me something, you can believe what I say or you can dismiss it.

Just because something has the potential for immortality does not negate the fact that it also has the potential for death, this is proven in the death of Jesus upon the cross, Christ was sinless so by that His physical body had the potential for immortality, but it also had the potential for death.

Is the flesh perfect if it also has the potential for death? I do not believe so. Now going to the breathe of life that was breathed into Adam that made him a living soul, if Adam did not have the potential for death in that breathe (spirit) that was breathed into him, he would have been incapable of dying, but since he did .... so he did.

Again, we are not talking about our current condition - which is clearly no access to ability for our bodies to live forever. We were talking about the way God made Adam and Adam's access to something (called Tree of Life in the story) that would thereby make it possible for such a creation to share in God's eternal happiness. Without that access/ability it would make no sense to suggest God made man to share in His eternal Happiness because that "sharing" would cease at the end of the created persons life. IOW if God meant for man to share in His eternal Happiness and to serve, love and know Good(God) AND gave man a free will - then one real possibility/potential outcome of making Adam HAD TO BE that Adam could choose to never sin - and in that case Adam WOULD HAVE remained in the state (with God and in the "world") EXACTLY as God said He made it - VERY GOOD. Which therefore REQUIRES (in order for Adam to be ABLE to serve, love and know Him and share in His Eternal Happiness) that Adam be VERY GOOD (otherwise he could not "stand" in such a close relationship with God) and that Adam never die.
To deny that potential outcome of creating Adam as one real possibility requires some or all of the
those things to be not be true - which is my repeated point here.

SO yes, in the case of Adam before the Fall (which he caused by sinning) there was both a potential for immortality (which Adam lost for himself and all succeeding generations by his first sin) and the potential for death - which is what God told them would happen - and what did in fact happen - if they did the one thing forbidden to them. So yes, Adam's first sin made that potential death a reality in this world - a reality for us all which was caused by that first sin. Death came "by one man".

None of that applies to us. Our bodies in the womb are not created immortal and we certainly do not have the access that Adam originally had to sustain our bodies eternally. So the idea would be in the resurrection of all - the new bodies of EVERYONE (including the damned) reunited with our immortal souls would once again be as Adam's body originally was - access to the ability to never die.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr.....If you're sitting inside your house and looking out your window at a parade going by, all you are going to see is what is in the frame of the window. You cannot see what's coming or what already passed by. All you can see is what is right in front of you. But, if you were to go up on the housetop you would be able to see more would you not?

Now, ...God who is Higher than any housetop, who is Known for seeing even further than that. He declares that He sees The End from The Beginning. That All ages are seen at One moment for Him. We do not see this way unless He permits it.
We who believe in UR, have been permitted to see as He sees, even if it is for only a moment. And that is not to say that we are special or anything like that. It's just that most of us, have walked away from all the teachings of Orthodoxy, and allowed Him to empty us out of those things, so that we could be filled with His Teachings. And that's what it will take. As long as you are satisfied with the orthodox teachings of the church, then you will never see these things on this side Jordan, and that's not to say that you don't love Him, or that you are wrong, or that you're not saved, so please don't misunderstand me.
I'm only saying that you won't be able to move on from where you are.

Adam was a "figure" of the one that was to come, Not the very "Image of". What does this mean to you? A type how? And Why is Jesus referred to as The Last Adam?

Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Of course this is referring to Our Lord, but Adam also "in a figure" did the same thing.
So if we have all borne the image of the first Adam, we will also bare the image of The Last.

It is All about "SEED" and it's not about "Evolving" as you say, it's about Dying, and bringing forth.
The first Adam died and brought forth Death.
The Last Adam died and brought forth Life.

Well if you want to get real technical about God's knowledge, by definition of that attribute His Knowledge extends not to just what will be, but also to ALL the what might/could be of every thing. Regardless of the complexity of the various possible outcomes - and it is beyond our imagination - He knows not just what will happen - but every single possible what-could-happen and the resulting variations from every single path that takes. So it is not just the view from the "top of the house" that He has, but every POSSIBLE view. So yes His Knowledge boggles the mind.However,

His knowing what WILL BE does not negate all the zillions of possibilities. If it did then one would have to say those are not really possibilities and His Knowledge of the exact path everything will take predetermines that path/all paths. Most of us do not believe that. He knows the paths because He knows all choices His creatures will make before we make them - and He knows the outcome/result of those choices - and so on. It is still the free will creature that makes those choices - and those choices - like Adam's - make what was only a potential before the choice was made a reality - from God's view THE reality He knew would be.

So it is not a matter of saying some of us can see His Ways and therefore a belief held must be so, more or less because we claim it was "shown" to us. What am trying to point out is just because God knew Adam would sin CANNOT mean that God set Adam up to fail. NO. There had to be a REAL POSSIBILITY that a true free will created being COULD have chosen NOT to disobey - to do ONLY what is right/good. Which then means God HAD TO have made Adam and put in him in a position where that possibility COULD HAVE actually played out. Saying Adam was created imperfect NEGATES that possibility - makes it NOT potential - makes it IMPOSSIBLE.

We actually see that type of possibility played out (become a reality) in the existence of some angels that DID NOT fall/fail - which is another way of saying to be what He made them to be. The angels in Heaven did not CHANGE/evolve/grow into something else - NO - they remained what they are - what they were made to be - because they chose to be that. But just like Adam, God gave angles the same ability to make that choice and just like Adam some of them did not want to be what He made them to be. And just like Adam's choice had "fatal" consequence, so to did Satan's and those angles that followed his lead. So even though God knew all that would happen - the potential for it NOT to be so still had to be real - otherwise those were not real choices.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I - dr b - am adding this in response to your last post.

And to tie that back to UR - the choice to NOT BE what God made us to be must have real consequence. Justice demands it and because of Who we say our Maker is - that Justice requires eternal consequence for such choice. In the case of mankind, God could have (as the Bible actually suggests He RIGHTLY/Justly could have) just wiped us all out and started over. However, in our case, He did not choose to do that - but that still leaves us in a condition/state of having real eternal consequence being REQUIRED for our choices. Which means after mankind fell - which He knew would happen - that in order for the choice He made to "do something" to allow ANY of us to avoid the eternal consequences of our choices - He had to act. So our current state - our reality - requires supernatural intervention in order for ANY of us to essential get what we deserve. IOW Adam's first sin creates the necessity for our needing a Savior.

So instead of those those thoughts, if as UR folks here say, (and forget for a second all the impossible issues with saying God does this) - if we claim Adam/mankind was just an imperfect seed sown that will over time (in this life or in Hell in the next - summarizing UR) eventually no matter what WILL become what God made us to be then the necessity of our needing a Savior to redeem us is gone. You could say what He did for us has to help our growing process - but one is claiming that whatever one thinks we "grow into"; that potential is inevitable.
If it is inevitable that a seed will become an oak tree - even if it does not currently want to be an oak tree - how can we say that seed MUST HAVE the sacrifice of another oak tree to make that possible? A coach tree or great example tree - sure - but even then one must admit that the coach or example are not a NECESSITY for something one has already claimed is inevitible - the seed will become an oak tree regardless.

 

[2KnowHim]

There had to be a REAL POSSIBILITY that a true free will created being COULD have chosen NOT to disobey - to do ONLY what is right/good. Which then means God HAD TO have made Adam and put in him in a position where that possibility COULD HAVE actually played out.

He did, but it was NOT the first Adam, but The Last which is His Son, His Word, His Seed, after His kind.

The rest of what you said, is just nonsense, there is no such thing as free will Dr. that is one of the biggest lies that we have ever believed. That is what I define as looking through that window. It's the same lie that the serpent convince Adam of and the same one he has convinced you of.

 

[faroukfarouk]

He did, but it was NOT the first Adam, but The Last which is His Son, His Word, His Seed, after His kind.

The rest of what you said, is just nonsense, there is no such thing as free will Dr. that is one of the biggest lies that we have ever believed. That is what I define as looking through that window. It's the same lie that the serpent convince Adam of and the same one he has convinced you of.

Hi there, 2KnowHim:

There does indeed need to be a proper balance between an understanding of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Both are Scriptural, of course! Blessings to you and yours.

 

[2KnowHim]

Do you understand what Paul is talking about here?

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

This was Adam's beginning DR. Earthy, from the earth, Natural.

 

[2KnowHim]

There does indeed need to be a proper balance between an understanding of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Both are Scriptural, of course! Blessings to you and yours.

Yes, I agree, we have a will but that will is very limited, and it does NOT apply to Life and Death issues as God views them.
Blessings to you too

 

[jerry kelso]

Your right it wasn't, it was The king of Tyrus a man.

2knowhim,

1. The King of Tyrus was not ever in the original garden of Eden. He was never created with the workmanship of his tabrets and of his pipes. He was never the anointed cherub that covereth and was never set on the holy mountain of God. He was never perfect and without sin for he was a man born way after Adam so he was born and conceived in sin, etc.

2. Now one can make comparisons of the King of Tyrus and his true heart that was enslaved to Satan and lifted up in pride, etc. But this is a double reference and the King of Tyrus was never perfect till sin was found in him.

3. This kind of hermeneutic is used in Matthew when Jesus was speaking to Peter when Peter said I won't let anyone kill you (the Lord). Jesus said, get thee behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God.
Peter was not Satan but Satan was using him and at the same time Peter was being rebuked because he did not understand the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and that it was imperative for Christ to die as the one and only sacrificed perfect lamb who would die and take away the sins of the whole world.

4. One has to learn to rightly divide the immediate context and the overall context on a subject to reach the truth.
Jesus called Satan the Father of lies and men that followed him were called his children. This proves why Adam was tempted by Satan in the garden because Satan had already sinned beforehand as shown in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Adam is never called the Father of Satan but he was considered a child of the devil because of the fact of serving him.

5. Adam was the fountainhead of the human race and through his sin the whole human race was damned. Likewise, when Adam sinned it was because of Lucifer who was the first sinner of the universe. There was no sinner before him. The reason he sinned is because God created him to have power to create and reason and freewill choice.

6. This is bible and one can claim they only hear from God if they like and that is their choice. However, if what they say and believe is not contained in the word of God then they have not been taught of God and have not the truth. John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

7. One can have all the questions and objections that they want but if it is not found in the word then they are futile question and objections for the most part. Things of this nature are plain in scripture. There are other passages that are more in the grey area as far as specifics but this is not one of them.

If you think that you have scripture that proves my scriptures wrong you are free to show them and I will be glad to examine them and their context. Thanks. Jerry kelso