Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

No, this isn't just about being in Eden....and Ezek 31:18 doesn't claim that Pharaoh was in Eden.

Now again, are you claiming that the king of Tyre was....

1) a cherub
2) anointed
3) perfect in all his ways
4) a covering
5) in Eden

This is what the scripture says and YES, I agree with scripture.
Yes, it does say Pharaoh was in Eden the same as The king of Tyre. And in Allegory, so was you and so was I.

 

[James Is Back]

This is what the scripture says and YES, I agree with scripture.
Yes, it does say Pharaoh was in Eden the same as The king of Tyre. And in Allegory, so was you and so was I.

Pharaoh wasn't in Eden I don't know where anyone would get that idea from but that is not Scripture at all no matter how much anyone twists Scripture to fit their own theology.

There is no Scripture at all that says Pharaoh was ever in Eden.

 

[2KnowHim]

Pharaoh wasn't in Eden I don't know where anyone would get that idea from but that is not Scripture at all no matter how much anyone twists Scripture to fit their own theology.

There is no Scripture at all that says Pharaoh was ever in Eden.

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[justlookinla]

This is what the scripture says and YES, I agree with scripture.
Yes, it does say Pharaoh was in Eden the same as The king of Tyre. And in Allegory, so was you and so was I.

You're asserting that the king of Tyre was a cherub, anointed, perfect in all his ways, a covering in Eden, died and was reincarnated later again as the king of Tyre?

 

[justlookinla]

This is what the scripture says and YES, I agree with scripture.
Yes, it does say Pharaoh was in Eden the same as The king of Tyre. And in Allegory, so was you and so was I.

No, it doesn't say that pharoah was in Eden the same as the king of Tyre. Read it again....

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
​

It's a comparative scripture, thus the phrase "whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness". There's absolutely nothing about being in Eden, as contrasted to scripture specifically saying the king of Tyre was in Eden.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, I know it is hard for you to agree to that, but anything less than that, puts God in the light of being caught by surprise, or going oops, or making a mistake. And that I can't see.



That's what you see though, if He didn't create someone perfect from the beginning you seem to see it as "not being His best".
But what we call His best and what He calls His best can be two different things. You and I were both born in sin and tresspasses were we not? Born that way,....but look at what He has done for us in Giving us His Son.
It has always been God's way to save the best for last. Remember the marriage at cana?

Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

If we were made perfect from the start how could we have ever fallen? Perfection does not fall. And the scripture in Ezk. that everyone wants to use to discribe satan's fall, notice it says he was "perfect in all Thy/your ways" but it does not say God's ways. The same as it denotes here that...
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:



I know that you think that angels are beings in the heavens way beyond the milky way (as weve been taught) probably having wings as in the pictures we see, the images of angels are everywhere. But I don't see them that way. I believe that angels are who we are wheither in the physical realm or the Spiritual realm. When you hear the word angel immediately this image appears in your mind, am I right? Simply put, I believe angels are who we are in the Spirit, we are human here in this world. We each have our own ....for a lack of better words....counterpart....and that choosing was intirely God, before the world began. Some were chosen to be a vessel of honor for the purpose of God, and some were chosen to be a vessel of dishonor for the purpose of God, so that in the end none of us can boast of ourselves, that we had anything to do with our own salvation. We are all messengers of God wheither for the good or for evil. Consider this. The two different realms.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

This is no doubt through His Son Jesus Christ, for He is The Seed, The Word of God.
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

As you can see angels can very well be prophet, priest or teacher, in the Greek it also says preachers.
Now is there any wonder why we will judge angels? There are messengers all around us all the time, we must discern the difference.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Luk_20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.



I have to ask you something about this statement. Do you think that God ever had anything other than His Son/Word in mind when we are talking about Perfection? IOW....could there ever be any perfection without Him?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What part of God knowing what Satan, Adam and all of us would do before He made any of us do you think indicates the orthodox view has God "surprised"?
God can't be surprised, that would be a silly thought for anyone to have.

If we say God created us to love, know and serve Him and share in His Eternal Happiness then several things are required in order to make that a real purpose. For starters we would have to be perfect in order for that purpose to be possible, which is why the Fall being a real fall and our need for redemption are both important concepts. Take away the idea that God made us that way, then there really was not a fall and it removes the need for our redemption. If we are not in a fallen state there is nothing to be restored to, we can't become "new". You could say we can grow/evolve into something new, but that is not what a restoration means. He said I make "all things new" not I make all things "better". The idea becomes we just need more time to become what we will be, whether in this life or the next and we toss out the need for a redeemer all to preserve support of a belief in UR.

As angels and men are distinguished as having different natures/origins in scripture am unclear how to bend those depictions to make to states/realities of mankind. The Son of God existed as Spirit (no body) before becoming the man Jesus. All of us, including Jesus have a body and a human spirit. Jesus resurrected was of both human body and human spirit, in a manner He indicated that we to can potentially have in our resurrection. So am unclear how to accept the notion that our death and resurrection leave us without bodies - like angels which are also spirits - when clearly His resurrection (as the first of mankind to be) included both a body and a soul. Yes unlike the bodies we have now, but a real, physical, human body none the less.

 

[anonymouswho]

The purpose for God making us and the angels is huge part of the issue here in a thread on UR. That purpose would have to be in agreement with our view of the final outcome for all creatures/creation. God's Nature also comes into play in His deciding to make us all as He did. I will address His Nature first, because if we have no agreement there then we are not even talking about the same God.

Hello my friend. I have a question if that is okay. How is it that Satan and Adam were in a perfect state, and then lost perfection? What I mean is, how can that which is perfect, do something flawed? If Adam and Eve were perfect, and God is perfect, then how can we be sure that He will not "fall"?

Also, how is it that Eve made a rational decision? Remember, the Fruit contained the Knowledge of Good, as well as Evil. Eve did not know it was Evil to disobey God, nor did she know it was Good to obey Him. How is it that she did wrong, when she couldn't even comprehend what wrong meant?

Mind you everything I just said does not come from me, but is my poor attempt to summarize many thousands of superior thinkers pondering these things to reach answers (if possible) that agree with the teachings of the Apostles (which includes how all of scripture is to be understood), who were taught by God Himself.

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, my friend.

"Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Galatians 5:7

It also attacks God's Nature (Goodness) directly as the cause for evil rather than correctly being able to say evil is the result of free will choices of created beings.

I'm sorry, as noble as it is to try and take the responsibility of Evil out of God's hands, it is in direct opposition of Scripture. God is the Cause of all things, Good and Evil. This does not mean that God is Evil whatsoever. Nor does it mean God does Evil. Read the story of Joseph and his brothers, and you'll see that God does not need to sin in order to get what He wants. And He always gets what He wants. Free will is impossible my friend.

God did indeed create everything perfect. Perfect for the specific purpose that He purposed in Himself. He works all things after the council of His own will, and His will is that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. These things are not pipe dreams. God did not have have Yeshua sitting back as Plan B just in case Adam and Eve "fell" from what they were "originally" intended to be. Everything is right on schedule, and when the appointed time comes, He "will have all men will be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth". Then will all men have "eternal life":

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

God is Love, and Love never fails.

God bless you my friend.

 

[anonymouswho]

No, this isn't just about being in Eden....and Ezek 31:18 doesn't claim that Pharaoh was in Eden.

Now again, are you claiming that the king of Tyre was....

1) a cherub
2) anointed
3) perfect in all his ways
4) a covering
5) in Eden

Hello my friend. I don't think anyone is claiming the king of Tyre was in Eden, nor was he a "fallen angel". Prometheus is not real. This is figurative language. There are two ways to view this verse. The first is the simplest. This verse is about the king of Tyre, and he is being compared to an angelic being because he lived like one. He was a king, and kings got whatever they wanted at any time. The people believed they were gods, and treated them as such. We see this in the beginning of the chapter:

"Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God" Ezekiel 28:2

Consider the following verses:

"Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:" Isaiah 40:4

Is this verse really talking about valleys and mountains? Does God really want us to know about topography. When he makes the New Earth, will everything be flat? Of course not.

King of Assyria speaks: "For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped." Isaiah 10:13

God speaks: "Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood." Isaiah 10:15

Is the king of Assyria really an axe, a saw, a rod, and a wooden staff? Of course not. God is using figurative language to express His displeasure that the king thinks he is great by his own "free will". When of course it is God that works all things.

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Proverbs 21:1

The other way to understand this prophecy is to compare Spiritual to Spiritual, as Paul tells us to do and as 2KnowHim has been doing. That is why she compares the Spiritual prophecy to the spirit of Adam. Adam was in Eden, he was perfect in all of his way (until God Caused him to eat the fruit of Knowledge), and he was covered by the safety and shelter of the Garden. And then God brought him down low (as he does and will do to all men). Actually, I think this passage might be about something else more sinister. Ezekiel 28:2 (about the king of Tyre saying he's a god and sitting in the seat of God) sounds a lot like 2 Thessalonians.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Think about it my friend. Compare spiritual to spiritual. Who is the man of sin (Romans 3:23)? What is the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16)? What sits in the temple of God, opposing and exhaling itself above God, saying that it is itself a god? What tells us that we can thwart the will of God? That we can choose and make our own destiny?

The Scriptures are far more amazing than the Scribes and Pharisees could ever deliver to us. I've always been told this next passage is about Gentiles throughout the world, and that God reveals Himself to all people but some refuse to believe. This verse has nothing to do with unbelievers. Look who Paul addresses this to:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Romans 1:18

This is about believers, we who hold the truth. But we do so in unrighteousness. We become vain in our imaginations, making up all sorts if mythical tales of fallen angels and a fiery torture chamber called hell.

Yeshua accomplished all that He was sent to do, and no man nor angel can ever thwart the intentions of God. He will get all that He desires, because He is Love, and Love never fails.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[2KnowHim]

What part of God knowing what Satan, Adam and all of us would do before He made any of us do you think indicates the orthodox view has God "surprised"?
God can't be surprised, that would be a silly thought for anyone to have.

Ok, if He wasn't surprised, then He knew, that Adam would be disobedient. To me there is only one or the other, either He knew or He didn't. If He didn't then He would have been surprised, (because He didn't create him that way), which I thought that's what you are saying. If He did know that Adam would be disobedient, then there could only be one answer which is, God made him with that ability. Orthodoxy calls it the fall, but the scriptures calls it, disobedience or transgression.

If we say God created us to love, know and serve Him and share in His Eternal Happiness then several things are required in order to make that a real purpose.

For starters we would have to be perfect in order for that purpose to be possible,

Yes, and that is why He sent His Son, for without Him it would not be possible. It was never meant to be apart from His Son. Remember, "Adam was only a figure of the one that was to come". If Adam was made perfect from the beginning, then show me Where was Jesus Christ in that Garden Scene? Where was the sacrifice, where was The Lamb of God, where was The Christ and what role did He play when it comes to Adam?
If Adam was perfect he would have been The Son of God, Jesus Christ, He is The Perfection of God, and man can only be made into Perfection through Him, His Spirit. That's what God had in mind from the beginning.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

There are a couple of things many don't know and have never looked it up. Many believe because God breathed into Adam, it was The Spirit of Christ, (the annointed one) but it was NOT, it was the Breath of Life, which is different than The Holy Spirit of God. It was the same breath that all the animals have, it is Soul/Life, it is not the same. It's just walking around life, it is not Spiritual Life that can only come through the One who is holy, and that is God Himself through His Son.

breath. -Hebrew. neshamah.
Holy Spirit -Hebrew. ruach.

There is a huge difference between these to forms of Life, one is soulish life, and the other is Spiritual life, Adam did not possess this in his beginning.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, if He wasn't surprised, then He knew, that Adam would be disobedient. To me there is only one or the other, either He knew or He didn't. If He didn't then He would have been surprised, (because He didn't create him that way), which I thought that's what you are saying. If He did know that Adam would be disobedient, then there could only be one answer which is, God made him with that ability. Orthodoxy calls it the fall, but the scriptures calls it, disobedience or transgression.




Yes, and that is why He sent His Son, for without Him it would not be possible. It was never meant to be apart from His Son. Remember, "Adam was only a figure of the one that was to come". If Adam was made perfect from the beginning, then show me Where was Jesus Christ in that Garden Scene? Where was the sacrifice, where was The Lamb of God, where was The Christ and what role did He play when it comes to Adam?
If Adam was perfect he would have been The Son of God, Jesus Christ, He is The Perfection of God, and man can only be made into Perfection through Him, His Spirit. That's what God had in mind from the beginning.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

There are a couple of things many don't know and have never looked it up. Many believe because God breathed into Adam, it was The Spirit of Christ, (the annointed one) but it was NOT, it was the Breath of Life, which is different than The Holy Spirit of God. It was the same breath that all the animals have, it is Soul/Life, it is not the same. It's just walking around life, it is not Spiritual Life that can only come through the One who is holy, and that is God Himself through His Son.

breath. -Hebrew. neshamah.
Holy Spirit -Hebrew. ruach.

There is a huge difference between these to forms of Life, one is soulish life, and the other is Spiritual life, Adam did not possess this in his beginning.

The idea of being made perfect and having the potential for evil are not incompatible. Neither is God's foreknowledge incompatible with His choosing to make creatures with freewill - which by that act makes evil one POTENTIAL result. Not a result from God's creative action, so evil cannot be attributed to God simply because He chose to make creatures who could freely choose to act against their nature (do evil). So in that construct it is man (specifically Adam) that introduces evil into what was up to the point a perfect world. With that single act Adam's very being is corrupted, which he passed on to the rest of us AND the world became corrupted as well (cursed the story calls it).

Adam was made perfect but did not remain that way, which is why a Savior for Adam (and all of us) is needed - to make it POSSIBLE to RESTORE us to a state/status where we can fulfill the purpose for which we were all made - to love, serve and know Him while sharing in His eternal Happiness. Adam did not have to sin, it was a choice. Had Adam not sinned then mankind's nature would not have been corrupted (a fallen nature) - we (as Adam's children) would not be "born into sin" - which generally means we are born inclined to sin. And yes, if mankind did not have a fallen nature, we would not need a redeemer and Jesus would not have had to become a man to save us.

Of course Jesus was there in the Garden, He was with the Father in the Beginning - remember - through Him all things were made. God has no body, so before the Incarnation the Son of God has no body, IOW He is not a human before the Incarnation.

Yes, that I think is very close to what the Church teaches about God "breathing" life into Adam. But as Adam was created perfect, before he sinned he is depicted as "walking" in the Garden with God, which is another way the Bible speaks of someone who is Holy - "And Enoch walked with God;" - which is the same state I referenced above that Adam originally was in (but fell from). That state is required for us to be "fully" in His Presence - which is another way of saying FULLY serving the purpose for which He made us (to love, serve and know Him and share in His Happiness). That state of perfect holiness would be why people like Enoch and Elijah were able to ascend without dying.

 

[Blades]

Human Beings where created in the Image of God so that we could be company for him for the rest of Eternity, Gods ways are too High for us to understand his way of doing things. We know a few things from Scripture like There is a Throne in Heaven and one sitting on the Throne, the Lord God King of the Royal Household that rules the Universe, we know that Jesus is his Son... a Royal Family is self evident here... we know that Royal Blood was shed on behalf of the Human Race at the Cross, If we read all the epistles of Paul sooner or later you are going to come across Paul telling us that we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ in the household of God....The Royal Household that rules the Universe.... Jesus is described by the Word as LORD of Lords King of Kings, it is all there in Scripture, it is also Gods plan not ours.
One has to bear in mind that it is GOD and only GOD that would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, actualy every human being that has or will ever live will be blessed indeed in the end to know that, because one thing you can be sure of, no matter how people argue against Universal Salvation being the Reality, one day we are all going to see for ourselves that it is the Reality, the Actual Good News of the Gospel

 

[anonymouswho]

That state of perfect holiness would be why people like Enoch and Elijah were able to ascend without dying.

Hello my friend. I'd like to ask you a few questions about this. Orthodoxy teaches that neither Enoch nor Elijah died, but we're instead brought up to heaven. I'll start with Enoch:

"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Genesis 5:22

This verse simply says that Enoch walked with God (followed His way) and then he was not, for God took him. It doesn't say where God took Enoch, only that God took him.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5

This verse says that Enoch did not "see" death. I don't really know what this means, but I think it might mean he never physically saw anyone die. Adam was 622 when Enoch was born, so Enoch was born 308 years before Adam died. Enoch was "translated" when He was 365 years old. Since he wasn't born to witness Abel's death, then Adam would have been the only person that would have died before Enoch was taken. That's one way that I interpret this. But regardless, we know Enoch died because the writer of Hebrews says:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. " Hebrews 11:13

And then we have Elijah:

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11

This verse tells us that Elijah went up in a whirlwind to heaven. Just like Enoch and Elijah, something similar happened to Philip while he is talking with the eunuch:

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." Acts 8:39

We are told Elijah was caught up into heaven, but this does not mean that he went to Heaven where God lives. He was taken into the sky and moved to another place. Otherwise, how else could he have written Jehoram, several years after?

"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." 2 Chronicles 21:12

Elijah did not write this before he was taken. The Scriptures make no mention of him writing a letter to the future. Elijah and Enoch both died, just like every man before them, and every man after them (One exception).

Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead. He is the only Man to have ever been risen from the dead. Everyone else is in the ground, waiting for Judgement. They are not conscious:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[2KnowHim]

Yes, that I think is very close to what the Church teaches about God "breathing" life into Adam. But as Adam was created perfect, before he sinned he is depicted as "walking" in the Garden with God, which is another way the Bible speaks of someone who is Holy - "And Enoch walked with God;" - which is the same state I referenced above that Adam originally was in (but fell from).

Again I say, that without the indwelling Spirit of God, "Ruach" (not the breathe of life that Adam had which is "neshamah"), it is not possible to be Perfect, or made into His Image and likeness.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Again I say, that without the indwelling Spirit of God, "Ruach" (not the breathe of life that Adam had which is "neshamah"), it is not possible to be Perfect, or made into His Image and likeness.

And again I would say that does not explain Adam's (before his sin), Enoch or Elijah, or...... are able to "walk" with God to the extent they did and we do not.

Neither has the issue about a need for redemption, a need to restore all things, a need to make us new, a need to make us like Him (not like God but like the only resurrected human to date) been addressed. It is not clear to me at all that absent a real fall from a state of perfect harmony both with God and internally within onself (body, mind and spirit); unclear why any of those needs really exists. Without a fall one is simply saying God made us imperfect and expects everyone to evolve/change into perfection - to the point of this thread - either during this life or somehow from experiencing the pains of Hell in the next. So am saying if UR is true, the need for a redeemer seems not just unclear, but unnecessary.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello my friend. I'd like to ask you a few questions about this. Orthodoxy teaches that neither Enoch nor Elijah died, but we're instead brought up to heaven. I'll start with Enoch:

"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Genesis 5:22

This verse simply says that Enoch walked with God (followed His way) and then he was not, for God took him. It doesn't say where God took Enoch, only that God took him.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5

This verse says that Enoch did not "see" death. I don't really know what this means, but I think it might mean he never physically saw anyone die. Adam was 622 when Enoch was born, so Enoch was born 308 years before Adam died. Enoch was "translated" when He was 365 years old. Since he wasn't born to witness Abel's death, then Adam would have been the only person that would have died before Enoch was taken. That's one way that I interpret this. But regardless, we know Enoch died because the writer of Hebrews says:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. " Hebrews 11:13

And then we have Elijah:

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11

This verse tells us that Elijah went up in a whirlwind to heaven. Just like Enoch and Elijah, something similar happened to Philip while he is talking with the eunuch:

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." Acts 8:39

We are told Elijah was caught up into heaven, but this does not mean that he went to Heaven where God lives. He was taken into the sky and moved to another place. Otherwise, how else could he have written Jehoram, several years after?

"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." 2 Chronicles 21:12

Elijah did not write this before he was taken. The Scriptures make no mention of him writing a letter to the future. Elijah and Enoch both died, just like every man before them, and every man after them (One exception).

Yeshua is the firstborn from the dead. He is the only Man to have ever been risen from the dead. Everyone else is in the ground, waiting for Judgement. They are not conscious:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

Without going way off thread, think about it. Not everything has to be explicitly spelled out in scripture in order to say it must be so. If Enoch and Elijah are not "with Him" then where are they (where did He take them) and what would be the point of the story showing God taking them if not to say it must be in keeping with, indeed represent a fulfillment of for those two, part of the chief reason we exist?

So if we say God made us to know, love, serve and share eternally in His Happiness, then whatever we believe happened to those two has to be in line with that purpose. And it is also in keeping to say if someone is in totally perfect a relationship with God, as it is suggested by the record of God's action at the end of the life of those two, that He would spare them a physical death. Clearly being spared death was His intention for Adam because only after Adam's sin did God act to remove the POTENTIAL for immortality from him (Son of God, the Tree of Life). So until Adam sin, he too would have enjoyed the same perfect harmony with God (and internally body, soul and mind) that allowed Enoch and Elijah their privilege by Grace.

So unless one wants to imagine another purpose for our existence and/or perhaps a different one for people like Enoch and Elijah, then the suggested reason for their special treatment is in line with that legend about them and the stated traditional/orthodox purpose of God making man. BTW to prevent the coming protests, Enoch and Elijah still need Jesus as a redeemer (as would anyone similarly treated before His Resurrection), and the orthodox position of His being God is one reason the Grace from His Sacrifice can be applied eternally (forward and backward in time) - whereas the Sacrifice of just a man could not.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Again I say, that without the indwelling Spirit of God, "Ruach" (not the breathe of life that Adam had which is "neshamah"), it is not possible to be Perfect, or made into His Image and likeness.

Adding - you touch on what we would say is needed now to help us "be Holy" as He is Holy - something He would not have told us we could do if it were not possible in this life to do so. Enoch and Elijah would be examples of that possibility - and their treatment at the end of life in keeping with their state of "being Holy" in keeping with the possibility of our resurrection to Glory.

And yes, indwelling of the Spirit - to the degree our refraining from sin allows it - is also part of the Grace making it possible for us to be able to "be Holy". That Grace (the indwelling) comes only from God, and is only made possible because of what God, in the Person of Jesus did for us all. The point about Adam, before freely choosing to sin, he was already Holy and God “dwelled” in him – which is also part of the understanding of saying people like Enoch, Elijah – “walked with God”, which clearly Adam was doing before he sinned.

 

[2KnowHim]

I give up, Dr., NO where will you show me that Adam had the indwelling Spirit of The Christ, ain't gonna happen or that he walked with God, like Enoch and Elijah. The first time it mentions God walking in the Garden, Adam "Hides" himself.

 

[jugghead]

So am saying if UR is true, the need for a redeemer seems not just unclear, but unnecessary.

But the need for a redeemer is still necessary if we believe Adam was created in the fallen state, he may have been perfect in the physical sense, but he was not in the spiritual sense ... when you were physically born into this world were you Spiritually perfect knowing all things? Did you know good and evil? We all eat from the tree, therefore we have all disobeyed the first law, "Do not eat"

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I give up, Dr., NO where will you show me that Adam had the indwelling Spirit of The Christ, ain't gonna happen or that he walked with God, like Enoch and Elijah. The first time it mentions God walking in the Garden, Adam "Hides" himself.

Not a matter of convincing, just asking how your own view makes sense to you, which neither Hillsage or yourself addressed - I see Jugghead took a stab so I will follow up with him.

Notice how the story mentions all the preparation required for Adam to be in God’s presence – like Moses was required to do…….

“And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam”

“but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man”

NOT!

Notice that prior to the fall Adam had access to the potential for immortality that was removed after he sinned. So not only does your view have an imperfect being potentially remaining in that state forever, but consider that one’s view is saying more or less, that God wanted Adam to sin (that is not a good thing BTW) so He could justify kicking him out.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But the need for a redeemer is still necessary if we believe Adam was created in the fallen state, he may have been perfect in the physical sense, but he was not in the spiritual sense ... when you were physically born into this world were you Spiritually perfect knowing all things? Did you know good and evil? We all eat from the tree, therefore we have all disobeyed the first law, "Do not eat"

The concept is that because of Adam's first sin, we are all conceived with a bent nature - inclined to sin.

And no, if as was clearly suggested to support the UR view in this thread, if God created an imperfect race, one must imagine a purpose for His for doing so that fits that thought - because the orthodox one no longer works. You cannot say He made us to love, server and know Him and to share in His eternal Happiness if one claims that He made Adam originally incapable of doing that perfectly. And without that original capability to love, serve and know Him, there really is no "fallen state" for Adam to "fall to", and thus no need to imagine a redeemer being needed to return Adam to that state. There is nothing to "undo" that makes a redeemer necessary - because one is claiming mankind was bent from the start and simply needs to evolve - change to become acceptable.

IF one says God intended for an imperfect race to evolve/change through a process of trials, stress -whatever to eventually reach a point of "perfection" where they can finally approach Him, then a best one could claim God could help coach us - and explain the Incarnation not as a redeemer being required - but a coach to help some of us change in this life - unclear how same coach is seen providing same help in Hell for those the UR folks claim do not "get it" now but come to "get it" eventually in Hell, which is another problem with the whole concept.