Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

[Butch5]

Will a Reformed believer please explain how Adam and Eve acted against their nature? This has been asked several times and no one has dared to touch it.

Marvin, any thoughts?

That is interesting. I've not thought of that before. I am interested to see if anyone answers.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin Knox said:
What religion are you by the way?

Will knowing that in any way advance our pursuit for Truth? In good faith, I pursue Truth through the Gaudiya-Vaisnava school. It's the mature expression of the pure Sanskrit/Vedic tradition.

Yes.

Being devoid of the Spirit of God, you are unable to understand, much less comment on with any authority, the writings of the Spirit of God.

Dead men and children should not enter into discussions concerning books written for living adults.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Will a Reformed believer please explain how Adam and Eve acted against their nature? This has been asked several times and no one has dared to touch it.
Marvin, any thoughts?

That is interesting. I've not thought of that before. I am interested to see if anyone answers.

Who said they did?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"There is no problem with free will theology. The error is to claim that man cannot choose outside of his nature. Of course all of man's choices are WITHIN his nature. So it's just a false claim."

Using 'foreknowledge' in place of 'predestination' is an extremely problematic approach altogether, as it incurs man's decisions on God's preeminence.

That is a bigger error than one could ever put on predestination. This was even the reason in and of itself that those like Calvin even proposed predestination ideology in the first place.

Not sure how your response relates to my post.

 

[EmSw]

Who said they did?

Come on Marvin; I see you aren't going to touch it either. They didn't have a sin nature. How did they sin without a sin nature?

If Adam and Eve acted against their 'unsinful' nature, then those with a sinful nature can act against it and acknowledge God, do good, understand the Gospel, and come to Jesus.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Come on Marvin; I see you aren't going to touch it either. They didn't have a sin nature. How did they sin without a sin nature?

If Adam and Eve acted against their 'unsinful' nature, then those with a sinful nature can act against it and acknowledge God, do good, understand the Gospel, and come to Jesus.

This could become quite silly if you act true to form as you have done in the past - in which case I won’t talk with you anymore.

Where did you see that I am unwilling to touch this simply because I asked you a question? Who told you that Adam and Eve acted against their nature when they failed to believe God?

It does not require a sin nature to sin.

Could Jesus have sinned if He had been only fully man and not also fully God? I wouldn’t be able to say dogmatically. But I’m thinking that the hypo-static union is the thing that guaranteed His success against sin - simply because God by the very definition of what sin is cannot sin.

Had He only had a nature exactly like Adam (which He did have) and not also that of God – He likely would have sinned - or at least He could have sinned.

Who says that one can only sin if he has a sinful nature?

Adam and Eve received a sin nature because they sinned.

We know precious little about their nature before the fall.

It does seem from scripture that it was not the equivalent of our new nature after our regeneration or exactly like that of Jesus after His resurrection.

Our new man cannot sin. Our old man can’t do much else but fall short of the glory of God.

The works that we sow to the flesh (the old nature) will be burned up. The works we sow to the new spiritual man will remain.

Concerning Adam and Eve - about the best we can say (besides that they were created in the likeness of God in some way) is that their nature was “neutral” and able to sin or not sin.

Likely that would be the same for the sinless man Jesus as well (speaking only of His humanity).

Your logic that says that a “neutral”, man such as Adam (and Jesus in His humanity?), being able to sin makes it automatically true that a sinful man can attain to the glory of God is unfounded by any kind of logical progression.

Where do you come across such rules of logic?

It seems that you are looking for me to say that we can’t, in our old nature, do any good or attain to any knowledge whatsoever. I won’t say that because I don’t see where the scriptures teach that to be true. In fact it seems that something other than that is true.

But whatever good we do is relative. We will always miss the mark and fall short of the glory of God while in the flesh.

But this is the important thing for you to remember. Whether some Calvinists overstate the inability of man to do good works or not – the fact is that the Word of God tells us that fallen man has certain limitations without the working of some special act of God.

He cannot understand the things of God. He cannot come to Jesus. He has to have His eyes opened by God like the example given us in Lydia.

Call it what you will – regeneration or something else. View it as an instantaneous act or as a process of some kind where the sinner kicks against the goads for a time before being regenerated completely.

It matters not to me - so long as you recognize that the scriptures tell us that God began the good work in Christians and that somewhere very early on in the process without their knowing it they passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Our spiritual birth is the result of life that God started in secrecy. Our spiritual birth is not, because of His pleasure over our success, the catalyst for God making us a new creature.

God is the author and finisher of our faith - not us.

If you teach that fallen men are able to attain to salvation by their own efforts and are then rewarded with eternal salvation because of their successful effort - we will part company real quick.

And if you revert to your old ways and begin to preach a false gospel of works we will not communicate directly again.

Kapeesh?

 

[rnmomof7]

OK, what's the point here? We know from v.12 that in order to become a child of God, one must believe in Christ. v.13 explains how one becomes a child of God; by being born again spiritually. And that is God's decision, not ours.

Exactly and that is just what the scripture tells us.. one more time

The question is WHO will receive Him ... The next verse answers that question , the ones born again BY THE WILL OF GOD ... not by human choice or will but God choice and HIS will

John1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man, but of God.


Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.



A dead man can not will himself to life ...
he must be born again spiritually before he can see his sin and see he needs a Savior

Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Notice regeneration comes before the indwelling Holy Spirit ...



[/b]2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The Bible explains upon WHOM God shows mercy and compassion:

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Again the question is who will forsake his ways ...

All men are wicked and unrighteous before a holy God ... but the natural man loves his sin and consoles himself that he is not as bad as his neighbor.. He will never repent and come to Christ without being regenerated by the grace God

Eph 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.






God has compassion and mercy on those who forsake their own way and return to the LORD.


It should be obvious how God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart: by allowing him to continue to live longer than he should have. We know this from Ex 9:15-16 - 15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.


On what Biblical basis is this statement made? Here is what Jesus said, which refutes this claim:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn 5:25

Jesus Himself said that "the dead will hear". He didn't say the regenerated will hear His voice, but the dead. Obviously he was referring to spiritually dead people. They can hear. And the phrase "those who hear will live" is obviously a reference to spiritually dead people not only hearing the gospel message but beiieving it. Because we know from a host of verses that "will live" refers to receiving eternal life.

When the dead hear His voice they are NO LONGER DEAD.. THAT IS REGENERATION ... when Lazarus heard the voice of Christ he was no longer dead...one needs to be brought back to life before one can walk out of the tomb... before the death cloths can be removed ... dead people can not make choices

Not those who have been born again through faith in Christ.




This is great passage that teaches that faith precedes regeneration. v.5 equates being born again (quickened) with being saved (by grace you are saved). The parenthesis is an explanation of what being "quickened" means.

The work quickened has a very specific meaning ...when a mother first feels the movement of her child in her womb ..that is called the quickening ..."feeling life"

That comes BEFORE one is born ...one is born after the quickening ...

The Holy Spirit quickens us.. we see our sin and need for a Savior.. and then repent and believe ( have faith)

Then, in v.8 Paul adds to the phrase of v.5 "by grace you are saved" the words "through faith". So, it is through faith that one is born again, or saved.

Notice that the scripture says BY GRACE through faith...Faith is a gift received by Gods grace

"The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rests...It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves,but that Christ saves through faith."( B.B. Warfield )

The Bible explains upon WHOM God shows mercy and compassion:
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

God has compassion and mercy on those who forsake their own way and return to the LORD.

The scripture says HE chooses on whom He will have Mercy ... The scripture is clear.. HE decides on whom He will have Mercy... you have used pure eisegesis in your interpretation...

It should be obvious how God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart: by allowing him to continue to live longer than he should have. We know this from Ex 9:15-16 - 15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

uuuuuum seems this scripture proves my point ... God is sovereign over who is hardened and who is quickened ..

On what Biblical basis is this statement made? Here is what Jesus said, which refutes this claim:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn 5:25

Jesus Himself said that "the dead will hear". He didn't say the regenerated will hear His voice, but the dead. Obviously he was referring to spiritually dead people. They can hear. And the phrase "those who hear will live" is obviously a reference to spiritually dead people not only hearing the gospel message but beiieving it. Because we know from a host of verses that "will live" refers to receiving eternal life.

When He speaks life into a man the dead hear and are no longer dead .... and those that do hear will live .


Arminian Theology makes man the initiator and author of his salvation ... [/B]

 

[nobdysfool]

Come on Marvin; I see you aren't going to touch it either. They didn't have a sin nature. How did they sin without a sin nature?

If Adam and Eve acted against their 'unsinful' nature, then those with a sinful nature can act against it and acknowledge God, do good, understand the Gospel, and come to Jesus.

Was Jesus tempted by Satan in the wilderness? Was it real temptation, or just "for show"?

The difference between Adam and Jesus with regard to temptation, is that Adam gave in to it, and Jesus didn't. In so doing, Adam corrupted his nature, to the point that all of his offspring carry that same corrupted nature. It's not optional. It's not a matter of choosing to be that way, it's the way we are.

And I see that the idea of man saving himself by his works is still the theology being pushed...

 

[Butch5]

This could become quite silly if you act true to form as you have done in the past - in which case I won’t talk with you anymore.

Where did you see that I am unwilling to touch this simply because I asked you a question? Who told you that Adam and Eve acted against their nature when they failed to believe God?

It does not require a sin nature to sin.

Could Jesus have sinned if He had been only fully man and not also fully God? I wouldn’t be able to say dogmatically. But I’m thinking that the hypo-static union is the thing that guaranteed His success against sin - simply because God by the very definition of what sin is cannot sin.

Had He only had a nature exactly like Adam (which He did have) and not also that of God – He likely would have sinned - or at least He could have sinned.

Who says that one can only sin if he has a sinful nature?

Adam and Eve received a sin nature because they sinned.

We know precious little about their nature before the fall.

It does seem from scripture that it was not the equivalent of our new nature after our regeneration or exactly like that of Jesus after His resurrection.

Our new man cannot sin. Our old man can’t do much else but fall short of the glory of God.

The works that we sow to the flesh (the old nature) will be burned up. The works we sow to the new spiritual man will remain.

Concerning Adam and Eve - about the best we can say (besides that they were created in the likeness of God in some way) is that their nature was “neutral” and able to sin or not sin.

Likely that would be the same for the sinless man Jesus as well (speaking only of His humanity).

Your logic that says that a “neutral”, man such as Adam (and Jesus in His humanity?), being able to sin makes it automatically true that a sinful man can attain to the glory of God is unfounded by any kind of logical progression.

Where do you come across such rules of logic?

It seems that you are looking for me to say that we can’t, in our old nature, do any good or attain to any knowledge whatsoever. I won’t say that because I don’t see where the scriptures teach that to be true. In fact it seems that something other than that is true.

But whatever good we do is relative. We will always miss the mark and fall short of the glory of God while in the flesh.

But this is the important thing for you to remember. Whether some Calvinists overstate the inability of man to do good works or not – the fact is that the Word of God tells us that fallen man has certain limitations without the working of some special act of God.

He cannot understand the things of God. He cannot come to Jesus. He has to have His eyes opened by God like the example given us in Lydia.

Call it what you will – regeneration or something else. View it as an instantaneous act or as a process of some kind where the sinner kicks against the goads for a time before being regenerated completely.

It matters not to me - so long as you recognize that the scriptures tell us that God began the good work in Christians and that somewhere very early on in the process without their knowing it they passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Our spiritual birth is the result of life that God started in secrecy. Our spiritual birth is not, because of His pleasure over our success, the catalyst for God making us a new creature.

God is the author and finisher of our faith - not us.

If you teach that fallen men are able to attain to salvation by their own efforts and are then rewarded with eternal salvation because of their successful effort - we will part company real quick.

And if you revert to your old ways and begin to preach a false gospel of works we will not communicate directly again.

Kapeesh?

It's interesting that bring up logic as I see a few leaps. You mentioned the Hypo-static union. That idea is logically impossible. It violates the Law of Non Contradiction. A person cannot be "fully" two different things. If Jesus is fully man then He can't be anything else. If He is then He is not fully man. However, we read in Scripture that He was made in all ways like His brethren.

Additionally, if He could not sin then He wasn't tempted in all ways as we are. We find these words from Paul.

15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15 NKJ)

Paul says He was tempted. If one cannot sin then they cannot be tempted to sin.

You said,

Whether some Calvinists overstate the inability of man to do good works or not – the fact is that the Word of God tells us that fallen man has certain limitations without the working of some special act of God.

This is really a moot point as there is not a person alive who has not received so understanding from God.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (Jn. 1:7-9 NKJ)

John wrote that Christ gives light to every person coming into the world. Note too, that the purpose of this understanding is so that they might believe.

 

[Butch5]

Was Jesus tempted by Satan in the wilderness? Was it real temptation, or just "for show"?

The difference between Adam and Jesus with regard to temptation, is that Adam gave in to it, and Jesus didn't. In so doing, Adam corrupted his nature, to the point that all of his offspring carry that same corrupted nature. It's not optional. It's not a matter of choosing to be that way, it's the way we are.

And I see that the idea of man saving himself by his works is still the theology being pushed...

Where does Scripture say that Adam corrupted his nature?

 

[Butch5]

Exactly and that is just what the scripture tells us.. one more time

The question is WHO will receive Him ... The next verse answers that question , the ones born again BY THE WILL OF GOD ... not by human choice or will but God choice and HIS will

John1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man, but of God.


Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.



A dead man can not will himself to life ...
he must be born again spiritually before he can see his sin and see he needs a Savior

Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Notice regeneration comes before the indwelling Holy Spirit ...



[/b]2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


When the dead hear His voice they are NO LONGER DEAD.. THAT IS REGENERATION ... when Lazarus heard the voice of Christ he was no longer dead...one needs to be brought back to life before one can walk out of the tomb... before the death cloths can be removed ... dead people can not make choices



The work quickened has a very specific meaning ...when a mother first feels the movement of her child in her womb ..that is called the quickening ..."feeling life"

That comes BEFORE one is born ...one is born after the quickening ...

The Holy Spirit quickens us.. we see our sin and need for a Savior.. and then repent and believe ( have faith)

Notice that the scripture says BY GRACE through faith...Faith is a gift received by Gods grace

"The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rests...It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves,but that Christ saves through faith."( B.B. Warfield )



The scripture says HE chooses on whom He will have Mercy ... The scripture is clear.. HE decides on whom He will have Mercy... you have used pure eisegesis in your interpretation...

uuuuuum seems this scripture proves my point ... God is sovereign over who is hardened and who is quickened ..




When He speaks life into a man the dead hear and are no longer dead .... and those that do hear will live .


Arminian Theology makes man the initiator and author of his salvation ... [/B]

John 1:13 is referring to Jesus not those who believed on His name. Jesus is the one who was born of the will of God. Humans are born of the will of the flesh and the will of man, Jesus was not.

You said,

When the dead hear His voice they are NO LONGER DEAD.. THAT IS REGENERATION ...

The word regeneration only appears twice in Scripture. Jesus uses it in reference to the Resurrection and Paul in the verse you quoted uses it of Baptism.

 

[Marvin Knox]

In another thread concerning God's ordaining of everything that He allows to happen, we had these exchanges. My point at the time, in just this one or two illustrations, was that men did not sort of carry God around and do things with Him that He was not fully involved with Himself.

He does not allow Himself to be used in ways that He has not fully approved of and decreed to happen long before the things are done on earth in time.

Marvin said, “God is fully present in every bullet that strikes a child in a drive by shooting.”

FreeGrace2 replied,” Nah, God is not present "in bullets". God is omnipresent and dwells within believers, but He doesn't exist in bullets. He's fully aware of all bullets that have or will ever be fired. He may stop some and allow others to reach their target.”

Marvin said, “God is present in every atom that has been split in atomic explosions and in every atom that will be split.”

FreeGrace2 said, “I don't see omnipresence that way.”

Marvin said in earlier in this thread, “Of course you have gone on record elsewhere that you do not believe in the omnipresence of God. So I doubt that we’ll get very far along these lines.

I've often said that it seems to me that people who do not believe in God's sovereignty and His intimate involvement in all things concerning His creation must of necessity jettison many basic doctrines along the way.”

Uh, nonsense. I absolutely do believe in God's omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. I have never rejected any of these three. Most likely, my post was misunderstood, or misrepresented.

I have taken these quotes from you elsewhere to show that you do not believe in omnipresence.

I still do.

It seems that you believe in some kind of selective omnipresence only when it fits into your theological narrative.

God says, "Do I not fill Heaven and Earth?"

The definition I learned in bible college of omnipresence included reference to His immensity or what we would call in laymen terms His infinity or indivisibility.

"God is present at all times in His entirety and without division."

Every attribute of God is infinite and cannot be measured as it could if an attribute was divorced from another attribute.

The point again being that nothing happens in His creation that He is not involved in on a very intimate level.

As the point of this discussion has been - God is the first cause of all that happens. We are the second causes by which His decrees fall out.

It may seem to some that these facts make God culpable for evil. He says otherwise. All we can do is present Him the way the scripture presents Him and that is as the first cause of everything and say that the sins themselves proceed from the creature only who is to be judged.

God's having a bigger and better purpose for those sins makes His decrees that they happen good decrees. That is true even if they come to pass through sinful actions of men or angels. We have many examples in scripture.

It seems to me that many people selectively use many of the doctrines that they have supposedly espoused.

I have found that when I bring up things like omnipresence and omniscience and the like people say that they have nothing to do with, for instance, whether God is acting as the first cause of something (for instance - as the WCF has termed it).

The fact is that every attribute of God is involved with His every action. He is infinite and cannot be divided in His person or His actions.

We all, on both sides of the Reformed issues, use terms like "God allows it." But when we discuss theology the way we do here we need to bring everything we have learned about God from scripture to bear on things we have been discussing here. We should not use our knowledge selectively.

God simply doesn't stand aside and watch thing happen in this universe on any level at whatsoever.

In the Word of God all things consist.

I feel that there are many here who have fairly shallow and selective theology. But I'm not one of them.

Anyone who considers the entire council of God's Word will wind up leaning at least somewhat toward the "Calvinist" side.

Reformed theology (for want of a better way to describe it) is by far the more thorough and cohesive theology when compared to non Reformed theology in my not so humble opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly and that is just what the scripture tells us.. one more time

The question is WHO will receive Him ... The next verse answers that question , the ones born again BY THE WILL OF GOD ... not by human choice or will but God choice and HIS will

Nope. v.12 answers the question of WHO will receive Him. So….one more time…
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,"

OK, in black and white: as many as received Him…to those who believe in His name. Once receives Him when one believes in Him.

A dead man can not will himself to life …

Jn 1:13 isn't about this at all. In fact, this statement is a red herring.

he must be born again spiritually before he can see his sin and see he needs a Savior

I challenge you to provide any verse that clearly indicates that one must be born again spiritually BEFORE they can believe in Christ. In fact, there are clear verses that show that one is born again through faith. But I'll let you go first.

Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Isa 55:7 tells us who God shows mercy to; those who forsake their sins and return to the Lord.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

How does this support Calvinism?

Notice regeneration comes before the indwelling Holy Spirit …

Huh? Where? Certainly not Titus 3:5.

When the dead hear His voice they are NO LONGER DEAD.. THAT IS REGENERATION …

Jesus' own words refute your statement in Jn 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Jesus Himself noted that spiritually dead people WILL HEAR His voice. Your view is sadly mistaken.

when Lazarus heard the voice of Christ he was no longer dead...one needs to be brought back to life before one can walk out of the tomb... before the death cloths can be removed ... dead people can not make choices

Poor example, because Lazarus was not resurrected. He was resuscitated. Jesus was showing His power. This has nothing to do with resurrection or the new birth (regeneration). Laz was not regenerated because he was already a believer. He was resuscitated.

The work quickened has a very specific meaning ...when a mother first feels the movement of her child in her womb ..that is called the quickening ..."feeling life"

LOL. This has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual birth. Zero.

Notice that the scripture says BY GRACE through faith...Faith is a gift received by Gods grace

Yes, I have noticed that we are saved by grace, which is THROUGH FAITH. iow, we are saved throiugh faith. We are NOT saved until we believe. Look at v.5 where Paul equates being "quickened" or regenerated with "having been saved". So Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that faith precedes regeneration.

The scripture says HE chooses on whom He will have Mercy ... The scripture is clear.. HE decides on whom He will have Mercy... you have used pure eisegesis in your interpretation…

One more time…Isa 55:7 tells us who He chooses to have mercy and compassion on. Those who return to Him.

When He speaks life into a man the dead hear and are no longer dead .... and those that do hear will live .

This is a compete twisting of Jesus' own words. Shame.

Arminian Theology makes man the initiator and author of his salvation ... [/B]

I am strongly NOT Arminian. So let's not bring up false issues here.

I've challenged your post on several points. Will there be a defense?

 

[FreeGrace2]

In another thread concerning God's ordaining of everything that He allows to happen, we had these exchanges. My point at the time, in just this one or two illustrations, was that men did not sort of carry God around and do things with Him that He was not fully involved with Himself.

He does not allow Himself to be used in ways that He has not fully approved of and decreed to happen long before the things are done on earth in time.

Marvin said, “God is fully present in every bullet that strikes a child in a drive by shooting.”

FreeGrace2 replied,” Nah, God is not present "in bullets". God is omnipresent and dwells within believers, but He doesn't exist in bullets. He's fully aware of all bullets that have or will ever be fired. He may stop some and allow others to reach their target.”

Marvin said, “God is present in every atom that has been split in atomic explosions and in every atom that will be split.”

FreeGrace2 said, “I don't see omnipresence that way.”

Marvin said in earlier in this thread, “Of course you have gone on record elsewhere that you do not believe in the omnipresence of God. So I doubt that we’ll get very far along these lines.

I've often said that it seems to me that people who do not believe in God's sovereignty and His intimate involvement in all things concerning His creation must of necessity jettison many basic doctrines along the way.”



I have taken these quotes from you elsewhere to show that you do not believe in omnipresence.

Sorry, Marvin, but this is total nonsense. I clearly said that I don't see omniscience the way you do. That is hardly an admission that I don't believe that God is omniscient. I strongly disagree with your view of it. That's all.

It seems that you believe in some kind of selective omnipresence only when it fits into your theological narrative.

Nonsense.

God says, "Do I not fill Heaven and Earth?"

Uh, filling heaven and earth doesn't mean that He exists within atoms. To exist everwhere doesn't mean to exist within everything. I believe your view is very confused.

The definition I learned in bible college of omnipresence included reference to His immensity or what we would call in laymen terms His infinity or indivisibility.

I'm just glad I wasn't indoctrinated at that college.

"God is present at all times in His entirety and without division."

Yes, He is present at all times. That does NOT mean He exists within atoms. LOL

 

[rnmomof7]

Will a Reformed believer please explain how Adam and Eve acted against their nature? This has been asked several times and no one has dared to touch it.

Marvin, any thoughts?

They did not act against "their nature" ....They were created innocent ... They had the ability to sin or not to sin ...The sin nature came about BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN ...
After the fall everything the natural man does is sin before God ... he is unable to do God pleasing acts (Romans 8:8...Romans 14:23 ....Hebrews 11:6)

Note this does not mean that the natural man can not do "good" as man counts good.. but in the economy of God everything an unsaved man does is sin

 

[Butch5]

They did not act against "their nature" ....They were created innocent ... They had the ability to sin or not to sin ...The sin nature came about BECAUSE OF THEIR SIN ...
After the fall everything the natural man does is sin before God ... he is unable to do God pleasing acts (Romans 8:8...Romans 14:23 ....Hebrews 11:6)

Note this does not mean that the natural man can not do "good" as man counts good.. but in the economy of God everything an unsaved man does is sin

Where did you get this? Where does Scripture say that Adam's nature changed after he sinned? Where does Scripture say that everything an unsaved man does is sin?

 

[rnmomof7]

Nope. v.12 answers the question of WHO will receive Him. So….one more time…
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,"

OK, in black and white: as many as received Him…to those who believe in His name. Once receives Him when one believes in Him.

And indeed He does.. But who will believe in His name ?
1 Corth 2:14
“The natural man (the soulish man – one who only uses the five senses) receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.”
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You do not seem to like the verse that follows yours

Scripture is saying clearly that one is not "born saved " , ( especially significant to the jews that saw themselves as having an exclusive relationship with God ) nor by us willing someone to be saved , nor saved by our own will ... but by only the will God

Without the work of God the natural man will never hear or understand the gospel call

1 Corth 2:14
“The natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.”



John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jas 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jn 1:13 isn't about this at all. In fact, this statement is a red herring.


I challenge you to provide any verse that clearly indicates that one must be born again spiritually BEFORE they can believe in Christ. In fact, there are clear verses that show that one is born again through faith. But I'll let you go first.


Isa 55:7 tells us who God shows mercy to; those who forsake their sins and return to the Lord.

The natural man will never "forsake " his ways ..He loves his sin..

Tit 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Believing that one can save oneself by "
an act of self righteousness " ...being smarter, more clever, holier, seeing what most of the world misses... that they will go to hell if they do not choose right ..is pure arrogance , Believing he can "forsake his sin" without an act of God grace first ... is the sin of Pride

How does this support Calvinism?

Wow that "wicked calvinism " that renders to God the glory due to Him...that kneels before their sovereign God in thanksgiving for His grace... that evil calvinism ???

The scriptures are clear that God chooses those that are His..

Abraham did not choose God.. God choose him

Noah did not choose God ..God chose him

Moses did not choose God ..God chose Him

Israel did not choose God... God chose them

Mary did not choose God ...God chose Her

The apostles did not choose Christ He chose them

From Genesis onward ..we see the sovereign work of God to bring forth His plan of salvation .. choosing the line of David over others to brig forth the Savior..

Salvation is ALL of God ..100 % and not a bit of man

Jesus' own words refute your statement in Jn 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Jesus Himself noted that spiritually dead people WILL HEAR His voice. Your view is sadly mistaken.


Poor example, because Lazarus was not resurrected. He was resuscitated. Jesus was showing His power. This has nothing to do with resurrection or the new birth (regeneration). Laz was not regenerated because he was already a believer. He was resuscitated.

Just as our spiritually dead bodies need the resuscitation with the grace of God

LOL. This has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual birth. Zero.

Lets try this then shall we ?

Col 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;



syzōopoieō
Pronunciation
sü-zō-o-poi-e'-ō σύν (G4862) and ζῳοποιέω (G2227)
Dictionary Aids


Vine's Expository Dictionary: quicken together with (1x), quicken together (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to make one alive together
   
   1. of Christians, with Christ
      

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to make one alive together
   
   1. of Christians, with Christ
      

I am strongly NOT Arminian. So let's not bring up false issues here.

I've challenged your post on several points. Will there be a defense?

Ummm so you would consider yourself what ??? LOL

 

[rnmomof7]

Where did you get this? Where does Scripture say that Adam's nature changed after he sinned? Where does Scripture say that everything an unsaved man does is sin?

Ummm so you do not believe in original sin??

"On the other hand, we are affected by Adam’s sin. This is how. Before the fall, Adam was sinless, perfect, and good (Gen. 1:31). He had a ‘good’ nature. But, after the fall, he became a sinner. His nature was changed from ‘good’ to ‘bad.’ Since we are his children, we inherit his sinful nature (Rom. 5:12)." https://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/are-we-punished-adams-sin

The fall corrupted nature and mankind..

Gen 5 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

1 When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

 

[EmSw]

And indeed He does.. But who will believe in His name ?
1 Corth 2:14
“The natural man (the soulish man – one who only uses the five senses) receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.”
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You do not seem to like the verse that follows yours

I am wondering how you receive the things of God if not by the physical senses. Do you not READ the truth; do you not HEAR the truth from others?

Scripture is saying clearly that one is not "born saved " , ( especially significant to the jews that saw themselves as having an exclusive relationship with God ) nor by us willing someone to be saved , nor saved by our own will ... but by only the will God

The verse does NOT say by the will of God. Please read it again.

Without the work of God the natural man will never hear or understand the gospel call

No one has said God is not involved in man's hearing and understanding the truth.

Believing that one can save oneself by "
an act of self righteousness " ...being smarter, more clever, holier, seeing what most of the world misses... that they will go to hell if they do not choose right ..is pure arrogance , Believing he can "forsake his sin" without an act of God grace first ... is the sin of Pride

Since 'believers' have God's grace, what is keeping them from forsaking their sins? Would that be the sin of pride also?

 

[Butch5]

And indeed He does.. But who will believe in His name ?
1 Corth 2:14
“The natural man (the soulish man – one who only uses the five senses) receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned.”

The reason the natural man doesn't receive the things of God is because he chooses not to. The Greek word "dechomai" means to take with the hand or to take hold of. It's in the middle voice showing that it is the natural man who is doing the receiving.