Is God the "first cause of everything" (including sin) as the Westminster Confession says?

[FreeGrace2]

staff edit

Where in the world does this come from?? Sin certainly is not a relative consideration, though one is free to think anything they want to think about sin.

The Greek word for sin means to 'miss the mark'. That would be anything that misses God's will and commands. Very specific. God's will and commands are laid out clearly in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The nature of fallen men is spiritual death …

No, the condition of fallen man is spiritual death, or separation from God. The nature is human, and has been corrupted by sin from Adam.

THS is why one must be born again ...the dead can not choose t live..

This is a false issue. One must be born again in order to see and enter the kingdom of God, per John 3:3,5. And spiritually dead CAN choose God's eternal life. That is the very essence of the good news of the gospel: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ FOR eternal life.

Could I have some scripture where "free will ' is taught ?

It can be found anywhere man has choices. A good place to begin is with Romans 6 and the choice of who we present ourselves to as slaves (6:16). The concept continues into ch 7.

 

[rnmomof7]

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[rnmomof7]

What we are seeing here in many cases is an example of what I have said occurs all too often among believers discussing theology in this section of the forum.

People often become so entrenched and embittered in their opposition to so called Calvinism that they feel justified in misrepresenting what a traditional Reformed Christian is saying.

Often even common sense logic and or scriptural texts are ignored or argued against because to agree with the Reformed interpretation even a little might make your case a little less successful.

Sometimes it's done even though agreeing wouldn't really win the day for evil Calvinism at all. It would just make a point that scripture makes so that we can both understand things better from the Holy Spirit's standpoint.

The same things are done from the side of the Calvinist as well.

It really is a shame.

I think the hatred for Reformed theology is fear.. fear that maybe they are not among the elect, or that they do not have the ability to persuade friends or family to "accept Christ ' or "ask Him into their hearts"
It makes them feel "helpless" as IT SHOULD ...

God is the God of salvation ...man is not God in his salvation ...

God elects men...they do not get a vote..

When we preach the gospel.. it is not our persistence or our way with words or our ability to convince ...because to the unsaved it is ll just foolishness ...

It is a work of God to open their ears so they can hear.. it is an act of God to give a heart to see our sin and the holiness of God.. he promised us a new heart... He does the heart transplant...

as Spurgeon noted if the elect of God had a mark on their back we would run around lifted shirts.. we do not know so we present the gospel and leave the results to God

 

[rnmomof7]

A lot of Calvinist have just this problem. Always had since Calvin ruled Geneva. Hence all the zealous works they did.

And that are done by Roman Catholics, Arminians , and cults ..

Man wants to assure himself ... instead of taking the promise of God seriously ..that we have the assurance of the Holy Spirit

 

[rnmomof7]

No, the condition of fallen man is spiritual death, or separation from God. The nature is human, and has been corrupted by sin from Adam.


This is a false issue. One must be born again in order to see and enter the kingdom of God, per John 3:3,5. And spiritually dead CAN choose God's eternal life. That is the very essence of the good news of the gospel: believe in the Lord Jesus Christ FOR eternal life.

John 1;11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It can be found anywhere man has choices. A good place to begin is with Romans 6 and the choice of who we present ourselves to as slaves (6:16). The concept continues into ch 7.

Remember that Romans was written to the saved.. not to people seeking salvation.

Romans 9

14What should we say then?an Is there injustice with God?ao Absolutely not!ap 15For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy

to whom I will show mercy,

and I will have compassion

on whom I will have compassion.aq, ar

16So then it does not depend on human will or effortas, at but on God who shows mercy.au 17For theScripture tells Pharaoh:

I raised you up for this reason

so that I may display My power in you

and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.av, aw

18So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.


Dead men can not make choices.. God promised Adam they would die if they ate that fruit.. They ate and they died.. and mankind has been born spiritually dead ever since .

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Eph 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Marvin Knox]

......................Dead men can not make choices.. God promised Adam they would die if they ate that fruit.. They ate and they died.. and mankind has been born spiritually dead ever since ...........

The spiritual deadness of fallen men is one of the most basic concepts in the scriptures.

One can almost see Jesus shaking his head in amazement as He asked Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"

If people would simply start with this very basic truth as they delve into trying to understand salvation by grace it would go a long way toward our being able to come to agreement on these things.

I'm praying that the net of grace is really, really large because the lack of basic understanding in Christianity concerning this most basic area is really astounding.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sin is a relative consideration.. God and His pure devotees do not operate on that platform. In other words, sin exists only in the minds of illusioned, ignorant souls. To fully approach the Absolute Truth, one must go beyond considerations of mundane "good" and "evil".

What religion are you by the way?

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 1;11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

OK, what's the point here? We know from v.12 that in order to become a child of God, one must believe in Christ. v.13 explains how one becomes a child of God; by being born again spiritually. And that is God's decision, not ours.

We accept the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ. God regenerates the believer.

Remember that Romans was written to the saved.. not to people seeking salvation.

OK. And…?

Romans 9

14What should we say then?an Is there injustice with God?ao Absolutely not!ap 15For He tells Moses:

I will show mercy

to whom I will show mercy,

and I will have compassion

on whom I will have compassion.

The Bible explains upon WHOM God shows mercy and compassion:
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

God has compassion and mercy on those who forsake their own way and return to the LORD.

16So then it does not depend on human will or effortas, at but on God who shows mercy.au 17For theScripture tells Pharaoh:

I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden.

It should be obvious how God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart: by allowing him to continue to live longer than he should have. We know this from Ex 9:15-16 - 15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

Dead men can not make choices..

On what Biblical basis is this statement made? Here is what Jesus said, which refutes this claim:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn 5:25

Jesus Himself said that "the dead will hear". He didn't say the regenerated will hear His voice, but the dead. Obviously he was referring to spiritually dead people. They can hear. And the phrase "those who hear will live" is obviously a reference to spiritually dead people not only hearing the gospel message but beiieving it. Because we know from a host of verses that "will live" refers to receiving eternal life.

God promised Adam they would die if they ate that fruit.. They ate and they died.. and mankind has been born spiritually dead ever since .

Not those who have been born again through faith in Christ.

Eph 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is great passage that teaches that faith precedes regeneration. v.5 equates being born again (quickened) with being saved (by grace you are saved). The parenthesis is an explanation of what being "quickened" means.

Then, in v.8 Paul adds to the phrase of v.5 "by grace you are saved" the words "through faith". So, it is through faith that one is born again, or saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The spiritual deadness of fallen men is one of the most basic concepts in the scriptures.

And Jesus tells us that "the dead will hear". Jn 5:25

One can almost see Jesus shaking his head in amazement as He asked Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"

Being omniscient, He was already aware that Nic didn't understand.

 

[EmSw]

I think the hatred for Reformed theology is fear.. fear that maybe they are not among the elect, or that they do not have the ability to persuade friends or family to "accept Christ ' or "ask Him into their hearts"
It makes them feel "helpless" as IT SHOULD ...

Fear? That's quite a statement! Fear should haunt those who have no choice in becoming the elect. Since it is beyond their control, unknown fate lies at their door.

Plus, who is able to judge whether another hates or not? Hate comes from the heart, and no one is able to see in another's heart.

God is the God of salvation ...man is not God in his salvation ...

God elects men...they do not get a vote..

If men get no 'vote', then they are most hopeless. What will all your 'beliefs' come to, if you do not know if you are the elect or not? Why are you so sure you belong to the elect? I've heard many stories of Calvinists who say if man believes, then falls away, they were never 'of us'. What assurance do you have you are 'one of us'? Is it your perseverance, by which you are the elect? If so, then you do get a vote.

When we preach the gospel.. it is not our persistence or our way with words or our ability to convince ...because to the unsaved it is ll just foolishness ...

Wow, how can the unsaved man get saved if it's foolishness to him? Even regeneration will not work, because the unsaved man will even consider this to be foolishness. To whom is the Gospel preached if not to the unsaved, or natural man? Is it the well man or the sick man whom Jesus seeks?

It is a work of God to open their ears so they can hear.. it is an act of God to give a heart to see our sin and the holiness of God.. he promised us a new heart... He does the heart transplant...

Why would God opening their ears do any good? They would still, being unsaved, consider the Gospel foolishness. You have God working upon an uncooperative heart, which is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. But the Sovereign God does give us His truth about this deceitful heart in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

This is sovereign truth of our Sovereign God. Who dares to dismiss these words of truth? Who dares say this isn't for them? Will the deceitful heart cast away these sovereign words and remain in deceit?

BTW, man has free will in choosing whether to believe and act upon these sovereign words, or the free will to neglect them. This is how free will works. Why would any man neglect and reject these words of truth unless they are foolishness to him?

 

[Butch5]

The spiritual deadness of fallen men is one of the most basic concepts in the scriptures.

One can almost see Jesus shaking his head in amazement as He asked Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"

If people would simply start with this very basic truth as they delve into trying to understand salvation by grace it would go a long way toward our being able to come to agreement on these things.

I'm praying that the net of grace is really, really large because the lack of basic understanding in Christianity concerning this most basic area is really astounding.

What basic area, spiritual deadness?

 

[Butch5]

I think the hatred for Reformed theology is fear.. fear that maybe they are not among the elect, or that they do not have the ability to persuade friends or family to "accept Christ ' or "ask Him into their hearts"
It makes them feel "helpless" as IT SHOULD ...

God is the God of salvation ...man is not God in his salvation ...

God elects men...they do not get a vote..

When we preach the gospel.. it is not our persistence or our way with words or our ability to convince ...because to the unsaved it is ll just foolishness ...

It is a work of God to open their ears so they can hear.. it is an act of God to give a heart to see our sin and the holiness of God.. he promised us a new heart... He does the heart transplant...

as Spurgeon noted if the elect of God had a mark on their back we would run around lifted shirts.. we do not know so we present the gospel and leave the results to God

It's not fear. I don't fear error. I used to be Reformed and got tired of being told to believe things that weren't in the Scriptures.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

There is no problem with free will theology. The error is to claim that man cannot choose outside of his nature. Of course all of man's choices are WITHIN his nature. So it's just a false claim.

Using 'foreknowledge' in place of 'predestination' is an extremely problematic approach altogether, as it incurs man's decisions on God's preeminence.

That is a bigger error than one could ever put on predestination. This was even the reason in and of itself that those like Calvin even proposed predestination ideology in the first place.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What basic area, spiritual deadness?

Yes.

 

[Butch5]

Yes.

What do you consider spiritual deadness?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Using 'foreknowledge' in place of 'predestination' is an extremely problematic approach altogether, as it incurs man's decisions on God's preeminence.

That is a bigger error than one could ever put on predestination. This was even the reason in and of itself that those like Calvin even proposed predestination ideology in the first place.

Right on.

God's acting on His foreknowledge of what would surely happen if He acted in a certain way is what makes those things predestined to happen.

If God were to choose some other paradigm (one that would have another result) - there would be another result - and that result would be the thing that was predestined to happen, not the other.

The predestining choices of God have the preeminence over the resulting decisions of man.

The decisions of man are the direct actions - allowed and ordained by God - which bring His predestined choices to pass.

These things are crystal clear from scripture and any logical approach to what has been revealed to us about God's providence.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What do you consider spiritual deadness?

Exactly the thing that was visited upon our first parents in the day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't presume to know exactly where the spirit of man lies or what part it plays in understanding spiritual things.

I only know that "natural" mankind are dead spiritually and cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they must be spiritually discerned.

Ergo there must be spiritual life imparted in order that they can understand spiritual things such as the gospel.

Being born again by the Word of God is a result of having been given such spiritual life.

Being given spiritual life is not the result of having been born again by believing the Word of God.

Generation comes before birth.

The reason the Lord gave us the illustration in the way He did was so that there would be no mistake about the order of these things (unless of course one has an axe to grind and is affected by those prejudices).

The Holy Spirit blows where He will and we hear the result of His secret activities when one confesses Christ as Lord and Savior.

But the Holy Spirit's activities are not subject to what Jesus clearly said was, in reality, simply the result of the activities of the Holy Spirit before the fact.

Unlike some dogmatic Calvinists - I couldn't care less if one sees regeneration as an instantaneous act or a process of some kind.

What I care about is that God be given the credit for His activities in bringing a rebellious natural man to faith and that no man claim that credit for himself.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly the thing that was visited upon our first parents in the day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't presume to know exactly where the spirit of man lies or what part it plays in understanding spiritual things.

I only know that "natural" mankind are dead spiritually and cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they must be spiritually discerned.

Ergo there must be spiritual life imparted in order that they can understand spiritual things such as the gospel.

Being born again by the Word of God is a result of having been given such spiritual life.

Being given spiritual life is not the result of having been born again by believing the Word of God.

Generation comes before birth.

The reason the Lord gave us the illustration in the way He did was so that there would be no mistake about the order of these things (unless of course one has an axe to grind and is affected by those prejudices).

The Holy Spirit blows where He will and we hear the result of His secret activities when one confesses Christ as Lord and Savior.

But the Holy Spirit's activities are not subject to what Jesus clearly said was, in reality, simply the result of the activities of the Holy Spirit before the fact.

Unlike some dogmatic Calvinists - I couldn't care less if one sees regeneration as an instantaneous act or a process of some kind.

What I care about is that God be given the credit for His activities in bringing a rebellious natural man to faith and that no man claim that credit for himself.

You mention spiritual life and death. Where do you find any such thing in the Scriptures?

 

[EmSw]

Exactly the thing that was visited upon our first parents in the day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Will a Reformed believer please explain how Adam and Eve acted against their nature? This has been asked several times and no one has dared to touch it.

Marvin, any thoughts?