[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[ScottA]

Using my words to help me understand, so are you saying that because of the desire for a personal salvation from a flawed material world that otherworldly rewards supersedes all other concerns?

.

Sorry, I am not sure I follow you. Do you mind rewording that?

 

[dlamberth]

True: "If you have seen me (Jesus), you have seen the Father."

So none of the earth or cosmos are included?

.

 

[ScottA]

So none of the earth or cosmos are included?

.

They are a mere image of the story that is being told (his-story). In the cyberspace analogy, that would mean that when the finite purpose is through, the power is shut off to the earth and the cosmos...and the creation (the image) from nothing, returns to nothing. The purpose of the creation was to rescue the good that God had created, from the rebellion that occurred against God. By drawing out the rebellious by their own vanity into a world created to appeal to their nature, the good could be saved, while the rebellious are eliminated. It's a trap...and a lifeboat, depending.

 

[dlamberth]

They are a mere image of the story that is being told (his-story). In the cyberspace analogy, that would mean that when the finite purpose is through, the power is shut off to the earth and the cosmos...and the creation (the image) from nothing, returns to nothing. The purpose of the creation was to rescue the good that God had created, from the rebellion that occurred against God. By drawing out the rebellious by their own vanity into a world created to appeal to their nature, the good could be saved, while the rebellious are eliminated. It's a trap...and a lifeboat, depending.

How about today, now...how do you see the earth, matter and the cosmos and how do you see both God and man's place in it?

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[bhsmte]

They are a mere image of the story that is being told (his-story). In the cyberspace analogy, that would mean that when the finite purpose is through, the power is shut off to the earth and the cosmos...and the creation (the image) from nothing, returns to nothing. The purpose of the creation was to rescue the good that God had created, from the rebellion that occurred against God. By drawing out the rebellious by their own vanity into a world created to appeal to their nature, the good could be saved, while the rebellious are eliminated. It's a trap...and a lifeboat, depending.

Creation was in response to the rebellion against God?

How so? If God had not created yet, how could there be rebellion against him?

 

[ScottA]

How about today, now...how do you see the earth, matter and the cosmos and how do you see both God and man's place in it?

.

Time is an illusion. "'Today' is the day of salvation." There is only one day, his day, his time, his story (history). Matter is energy (from God), from which the creation of time, space, and matter came into being. God has projected (as with light/energy) the imagery of his story, for the telling of it.

Your day, your father's day, Jesus' day...they are the same day, but each its own, like parallel universes. Time is an illusion: We enter into our day in our own time, we exit in our own time, but we come into the timeless eternity of God simultaneously. History tells the story on a timeline...just as we often put something that is one matter, together from many pieces...even though it is only one thing. Collectively, all of our "times" have but one purpose: salvation, the rescue of the good of God's creation prior to rebellion. When the last soul is rescued, God will close the book on his story and unplug the power...after all, "It is finished" already.

As for God's place in the world: He sent his Christ (God in the flesh) to save the lost. His work is complete. Time and salvation, and the pages of the story, simply continue until the end of the story, until all who are his are saved.

 

[dlamberth]

Time is an illusion. "'Today' is the day of salvation." There is only one day, his day, his time, his story (history). Matter is energy (from God), from which the creation of time, space, and matter came into being. God has projected (as with light/energy) the imagery of his story, for the telling of it.

Your day, your father's day, Jesus' day...they are the same day, but each its own, like parallel universes. Time is an illusion: We enter into our day in our own time, we exit in our own time, but we come into the timeless eternity of God simultaneously. History tells the story on a timeline...just as we often put something that is one matter, together from many pieces...even though it is only one thing. Collectively, all of our "times" have but one purpose: salvation, the rescue of the good of God's creation prior to rebellion. When the last soul is rescued, God will close the book on his story and unplug the power...after all, "It is finished" already.

As for God's place in the world: He sent his Christ (God in the flesh) to save the lost. His work is complete. Time and salvation, and the pages of the story, simply continue until the end of the story, until are who are his are saved.

Thanks for the clarification. From what I understand of your theology so far and where it fails my sniff test is how your otherworldly rewards overrides a commitment to this world. Your not alone in a focus of otherworldly rewards. But we see the negative results of that theology in the disconnect to the world that our society has. And that disconnect has birth a variety of environmental problems, from climate change to pollution of air, soul and water, from population growth and unbridled consumption to biodiversity loss. We don't care about the earth as we rape and trash it. We are in a unique world wide crisis, partly as a result of the theology of a personal salvation from a flawed material world into a heavenly realm. We are living for those after life rewards while the earth is being desecrated. As I said, that doesn't pass my sniff test.

.

 

[madera23]

In other words, not your mind. You must abandon your mind, the faculty of understanding, in order to "understand".


eudaimonia,

Mark

The human mind is a faculty of thought that may come from an entity that
lives in man kind.. And they think it is their thoughts.
Not so with the insight and revelations that comes straight from the Holy Spirit. People think their thoughts are theirs, they are not.
The bible tells us to take thoughts captive and for good reason.
madera

 

[madera23]

Please explain. Is that Scott's perspective?

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If I had seen Jesus, I would not be alive to tell it. Sometimes an entity poses as Jesus, they come in all shapes and forms.

 

[ScottA]

Thanks for the clarification. From what I understand of your theology so far and where it fails my sniff test is how your otherworldly rewards overrides a commitment to this world. Your not alone in a focus of otherworldly rewards. But we see the negative results of that theology in the disconnect to the world that our society has. And that disconnect has birth a variety of environmental problems, from climate change to pollution of air, soul and water, from population growth and unbridled consumption to biodiversity loss. We don't care about the earth as we rape and trash it. We are in a unique world wide crisis, partly as a result of the theology of a personal salvation from a flawed material worlds into a heavenly realm. We are living for those after life rewards while the earth is being desecrated. As I said, that doesn't pass my sniff test.

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It should be noted that the greatest of stewards of the earth, are those who truly understand its complete value and its purpose. No one who is of God could do any harm to the earth, any more than they could or would do to themselves. This is self-preservation in its truest form. It then stands to reason that with less appreciated value, comes less care. Even the best of environmentalists who places a high value on our place in the universe, has not even touched the real value. With that greater vision then, comes a greater understanding of just where the universe fits in. If you can imagine, if we were to hold a celebration and convert our backyard into a magical place for a party...for a time...the earth would be comparable to the centerpiece of the celebration, within the comparable yard of our universe...but only for a time.

 

[bhsmte]

The human mind is a faculty of thought that may come from an entity that
lives in man kind.. And they think it is their thoughts.
Not so with the insight and revelations that comes straight from the Holy Spirit. People think their thoughts are theirs, they are not.
The bible tells us to take thoughts captive and for good reason.
madera

How do you tell if something comes from the holy spirit, vs just your own mind?

 

[Davian]

...
As for God's place in the world: He sent his Christ (God in the flesh) to save the lost. His work is complete. Time and salvation, and the pages of the story, simply continue until the end of the story, until all who are his are saved.

And the rest burn, for reasons beyond their control.

Cool story.

 

[dlamberth]

It should be noted that the greatest of stewards of the earth, are those who truly understand its complete value and its purpose. No one who is of God could do any harm to the earth, any more than they could or would do to themselves. This is self-preservation in its truest form. It then stands to reason that with less appreciated value, comes less care. Even the best of environmentalists who places a high value on our place in the universe, has not even touched the real value. With that greater vision then, comes a greater understanding of just where the universe fits in. If you can imagine, if we were to hold a celebration and convert our backyard into a magical place for a party...for a time...the earth would be comparable to the centerpiece of the celebration, within the comparable yard of our universe...but only for a time.

With the greater vision that I look through, as I look around at the desecration of the earth what I "see" are the results of a theology that is short on the celebration of the earth as otherworldly rewards overrides a commitment to this world.

 

[ScottA]

With the greater vision that I look through, as I look around at the desecration of the earth what I "see" are the results of a theology that is short on the celebration of the earth as otherworldly rewards overrides a commitment to this world.

You show yourself. But your love is in vain. This world would be nothing if not for its purpose, which is temporal.

 

[Davian]

With the greater vision that I look through, as I look around at the desecration of the earth what I "see" are the results of a theology that is short on the celebration of the earth as otherworldly rewards overrides a commitment to this world.

Indeed. It would seem that this Earth is the doormat to the [hypothetical] "next" world.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The human mind is a faculty of thought that may come from an entity that
lives in man kind.. And they think it is their thoughts.
Not so with the insight and revelations that comes straight from the Holy Spirit. People think their thoughts are theirs, they are not.
The bible tells us to take thoughts captive and for good reason.
madera

The Bible is anti-thought? Interesting. It's good to hear a Christian admit to that. If *I* were to declare that at this board, I would be accused of being a troll.

In any case, you've been dangerously misled by your religion. While not all thoughts are beneficial, thoughts are the only way to have knowledge, since knowledge is belief that is justified (you can explain logically how you know what you know is true), and thoughts are the only way to provide that justification. What you have isn't knowledge, but rather just unsubstantiated belief.

Also, you seem to have a garbled view of human psychology. Your thoughts are your own, but not all thoughts arise from the ego (the conscious, willed element of mind). Some thoughts arise unbidden from one's unconscious mind, and one can get stuck with negative thought patterns (or positive ones) as a result. For instance, someone with insecurities might find themselves thinking self-critical thoughts repeatedly, without willing such thoughts. I can understand how you might try to write those negative thoughts off as external "demons", but they are all a part of the complexity that is your own psychology.

That said, one shouldn't confuse just any thoughts with a negative thought cycle. It is possible to take charge of one's mind and direct thought through conscious will. These thoughts would not be those that one may metaphorically call "demons", since those arise from one's unconscious mind.

And so it is improper to imply that just because someone has arrived at different views regarding God than you, that they are merely stuck in such a negative cycle and their views are the product of that cycle. That isn't necessarily the case at all! It is the "better angels of my nature" (to snag Lincoln's term), my rationality and my honesty, that led me to my atheism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[paulm50]

If I had seen Jesus, I would not be alive to tell it. Sometimes an entity poses as Jesus, they come in all shapes and forms.

All it takes to be a leader of men, is blind faith from the followers. Wes Jesus such a man or sent by a god to start a new religion?

On the hard evidence it's clear he was a man. He was born and preached in the wrong place to affect world politics of beliefs of that time. His ministry was short. It appears he wasn't trying to establish a new religion, he was trying to rescue the old one. He was the 1st Century version of Luther.

It was Paul and Peter who took the new religion, after the first Jewish converts rejected the idea of dropping the old laws, to new places. It was Constantine who established Christianity in the way that suited him.

A supreme being that wants to come to Earth and change things. Doesn't "reveal" himself to Wyoming Farmers, he lands on the lawn of the White House, so why choose an insignificant outpost of the Roman empire, instead of the Senate in Rome? Because that was the place to make changes happen.

And remember, he's god so can't be denied.

 

[dlamberth]

You show yourself. But your love is in vain. This world would be nothing if not for its purpose, which is temporal.

What ever its purpose, the earth is sacred ground because God is right in the middle of it. And we ought to treat it with the sacredness that it is. When we see the desecration of the earth, that tells me something isn't right. When I see millions lacking food, water, medical access and a roof over their heads, something's not right. When I see the planet so poisoned and polluted that people are dying because of it, somethings not right. When I see a theology so consumed with the afterword rewards that it neglects it's own home, which the Earth is, something's not right.

.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

So Earth is somehow a magical, sacred place. But the other planets are?

 

[Chriliman]

What ever its purpose, the earth is sacred ground because God is right in the middle of it. And we ought to treat it with the sacredness that it is. When we see the desecration of the earth, that tells me something isn't right. When I see millions lacking food, water, medical access and a roof over their heads, something's not right. When I see the planet so poisoned and polluted that people are dying because of it, somethings not right. When I see a theology so consumed with the afterword rewards that it neglects it's own home, which the Earth is, something's not right.

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All this tells me is that you value the physical earth and heavens(outer space) over the new spiritual earth and heaven that is to come. This thinking can also be applied to your physical body. You value your physical body over your spiritual body. Your spiritual body is exactly what you were truly designed to enjoy. So the questions becomes: When will you begin to value your spiritual body (which is far far better than your earthly body) over your earthly body? Vise versa, when will you begin to value your spiritual dwelling (which is far far better than your earthly dwelling) over your earthly dwelling? I think the answer will come when you truly realize you actually have a spiritual body and a spiritual dwelling, which can only be understood and obtained by truly committing your all to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. When this actually happens you will do exactly as I'm doing and spread the good news to all who will listen. This is our purpose as Christians.

Your thinking informs me that you actually have not committed your all to the Lord Jesus Christ and I pray that you will so you can enjoy complete understanding in all things physical and spiritual. Amen!