You are talking about not allowing a lot of things because they're not mentioned in Scripture. Neither are computers; that's my point.
Jesus said "go into the world and make disciples", he didn't specifically say we could witness/reach people over the internet. Yet it is a wonderful tool for doing just that. Worship services, song leaders, gathering together in one building to praise and worship God are also tools, some of which are taught in Scripture.
No, you misunderstand the things I am speaking about and you are far from the truth in this matter.
I am talking about Gods commands to the church and God's order in all churches, yes "
commands", not cultures of the day. Church practice as commanded by God for the church. Paul would say things like ,
"...when ye come together, every one of you hath [not just a man called the pastor over all] a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying [if this is not allowed to happen then they quench the spirit and hinder God's order and working in the body and this is very serious, they just play church then no matter what good things they think they have laodicea thought they were rich and increased with goods and had need of nothing also].27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace [all can have a revelation of anything God gives them which is not allowed in most assemblies today who follow mans order].31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion [if Gods order was different in every church that would be confusion], but of peace, as in all churches of the saints [this was for all the churches as Paul was directed, not just for the Corinthians and so for today as well]....37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord [The Lords commandments are very serious and you make them nothing as if they are just made up ideas of man that I speak].38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant...40 Let all things be done decently and in order.[this order is God's order not mans, for it is God that works in every part of the body to effectually work and give gifts and revelation as they wait on him Romans 12 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor 12 etc]" 1 Cor 14;26-32,37,38, 40)
And since when are the "
commandments of the Lord" not very serious. if anything believers do in their gatherings
hinders this order of God and the body life and function under Christ headship we must reject it and warn of it and let it fall to the ground. No matter how right it may seem to us. Gods way is always best. Sometimes even the so called good may be the enemy of the best. For example when the early church was being persecuted for such a long time from Nero to
Diocletian. The believers must have sought some relief. The last ten years almost whipped them out. Then Comes Constantine and the believers are not under the persecution and can come out of hiding and be a high tower in the world. Constantine built the large religious structures patterned after pagan temples and set priest over very palace and paid them, and so the church was silenced by this man made order. Gods commands were not followed and all were not free to minister. The devil silenced the church in ministry among themselves and this was a master blow by the enemy to stop the body of Christ from functioning properly. These things are and were serious. Yet, many of the the believers may have thought like you do, that they still had some good things they could hear scripture meet in large places and see eachother and they were not being persecuted so that is good. And it was a way that seems right unto a a man but the end is the way of death, death to the body ministry and priesthood f all believers, death to the functioning of the church under Christ headship, death to the gifts in operation freely etc. The so called good that they may have seen was the enemy of Gods best and true way. And God had commanded that these freedoms be allowed to happen. But they did not and still are not allowed,. And when we examine what stands in the way of Christ working among us as the church functions in him. We see many of the things i pointed ot. Like one man pastor over all and church buildings the way they are set up, song leaders, programs etc etc.
First, we start with the truth and the body functioning under Christ headship, then we understand God's order among us and we can then see whatever comes along and judge it by that truth. For example if we know the true gospel 1 Cor 15:1-5, we dont have to see every false gospel mentioned in scripture to judge them by. We can try it against the revealed scriptural gospel and see if it is true. if not we should reject it. The same goes for Gods order and set order in the church and how we ought to behave ourself. if we see the true order and Christ as the head building his Church from inside believers, and then we see men set up a religious building ( patterned after pagan temples) and they call that a church and act as if that is the church Christ is building we can safely reject this.
“... which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4:15,16)
If Christ is not allowed to be the head and work effectually in every part of the body when gathered , then they just play church create a dyusfunctional body, have a religious show and form without power and Christ stands outside knocking wanting to come INTO them and sup (communion) with them. The word communion means to participate with. This participation is how all live and ministry and correction and guidance is given to the body. But instead men trust in an eloquent leader over all and the body ministry in Christ is hindered and the spirit quneched,
"...Quench not the Spirit...." 1 The 5:19
there was a set order in the churches and how they ought to behave. Just because some dont see this order doesnt mean its not there. here are some examples,
"“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5)
Here we see that Paul had a definite “
order” for them to be in and until this order was in place he diligently sought to work towards this end. The order he and Titus were following was led by the Spirit, and it was not mans order and fanciful ideas of mans wisdom and philosophies based upon traditions of men, but rather Gods order and commands .
The word “
order” , means “epidorthoo- from 1909 and a derivative of 3717; to straighten further, i.e. (figuratively) arrange additionally:--set in order. ( Strongs comcordance dictionary)
“For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)
This “order” among the Colossian church here was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in spirit. This is Gods order, and it was said to be“in Christ” . This order was not mans order and it is often not understood by man outside the Spirit..
Right after this verse Paul says,
“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ( Colossians 2:6)
This shows us again that this order is according to our walk in Christ and how we ought to walk. He warns them in this chapter of the danger of going away from this and following mans order as well, in Colossians 2:8. All these things apply to our daily life and as we gather in Christ. For there is never a time when we are not to walk in Christ.
Churches must behave in a certain way,
“ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)
Clearly, Paul speaks of an order here and this is how they “
ought to behave” themselves in the church. How believers ought to behave themselves is given by the Spirit of God, and as we walk in Christ and his anointing.
“Let all things be done decently and in order.” (1 Corinthians 14:40)
This is God's order not man's.
“And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Corinthians 11:34)
and do you still say these things are not important and Gods cmmands for the church through Paul and others?
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.” (1 Corinthians 16:1)
Do we believe that Paul was led by the Spirit to give such orders, and in what he said and did or was he just doing his own thing and following his own orders and giving others his own direction? About this Paul said,
“Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1)
Notice here that Paul did not even direct men to follow him directly, but only as he followed Christ. He then went on in the chapter to praise them for keeping the ordinances (or traditions, patterns) as he handed them down to them (1 Corinthians 11:2).
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15)
“Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2)
Notice Paul said, they remembered him on “all things” . These “all things” would have included the order from God in church meetings, which he does speak of in the letter many times. Holding the traditions was not an option either.
“For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Corinthians 4:17)
Again we see that this order Paul had as he followed Christ was what he taught “everywhere” in “every church”. Yes, what he said here related many teachings in the christian walk and not just church gatherings, but it also related to church gatherings as well and these were the same in every church as we read already. Pauls “ways which be in Christ”, are the order of God.
Paul also speaks of Christ in him as a witness all he said and did he said .
“Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.” (Philippians 4:9)
This would also include the way he was led to set in order church gatherings, all of which he spoke to churches many times
But mans traditions make Gods order and word of no effect. Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of his day for this also, and yes this was an important thing, no a small matter. paul also warned about the traditions and commandments of men Colosians 2:8 etc)
“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. “ (Mark 7:13)
When the word of God is made of no effect we are not able to live and move and walk in that word. And the effects of that word are hindered. Part of Gods word to believers and His order was for them to “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16). But this word is will not have effect of we do not Let this happen, and if instead we are drawn to traditions of men.
Paul sought to “set in order” (Titus 1:5) all things in every church as God led him to do so. He knew that through Gods leading the church becomes the witness of the body of Christ to the world and manifest the diversities of ministry and functions in the the body of believers when they gather together. If God’s order is set, Christ is able to work “effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love (Eph. 4:16). If Gods order is set, Christ leads as the head of the church and enables the body to be equipped for their witness to the world through Him. Therefore, anything that would hinder this, is against Gods order and affects the witness of the body of Christ to the world. But to “set in order” should be the goal of believers who should recognize that without this set order God s work is affected among us.
Mans order on the other hand, does not have Gods “set order” nor do many allow Christ to work effectually in the measure of every part of the body when they gather, they usually have one man or a few that take over the entire meeting where noone is allowed to edify one another. Mans order quenches the spirit and hinders Gods work by not allowing Christ to work in each part. This happens because men are led away from the Spirit and Gods leading and into their own natural understanding, forms, human wisdom, philosophies and rudiments of the world which are not after Christ (Colossians 2:8-10). This order of man is in many churches today and seen everywhere, which often often makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions. A false order creates confusion and a dysfunctional body with weaknesss and hinderances in many areas. The primary danger however, is that Christ is not able to work effectuallty in the body as the head in many of these gatherings today.
God’s set order is not a detailed moment by moment program as we see many churches have today, but rather principles and commands to allow freedom for God to move among us and is defined by certain aspects and parameters to allow this freedom in the body. Gods order in part, is his arranging of our lives and ministry, as we are led by the Spirit.
Jesus and the disciples were Jews, and their worship was influenced by, or modelled on, Jewish worship.
What Jesus was influenced by the Jewish worship? Jesus is God he doesnt follow man men and he said ,
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)
The Old testament worship and the new testament worship are different. Yes men could still worship God in their hearts in the OT. But a religious form was also set up in the temple with sacrifices priest songs etc. The NT church that Christ is building he builds from within as every believer lets the word of Christ dwell in them richly Col 3;16. etc
What God wants from us is that we believe in his Son, trust him for salvation, are born again, filled with his Spirit, use the gifts his Spirit has given us to serve him, tell others about him and worship him in Spirit and in truth.
I already showed you what God wants for believers when they gather together. And his commands for such things. God commands that believers allow Him to move freely among them and to wait on him for all gifts and ministries. (1 Cor 14;6-38, 1 peter 4;10,11, Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, Col 3;16 Ephesians 4;10-17, etc ). Paul said that those who do not acknowledge the commands of God for the church are "ignorant" or not known or to be recieved. They themselves will be ignored and we don't listen to ignorant men or women 1 Cor 14;37,38. Jesus said if we love him we will keep His commandments.
He doesn't command that we can only worship him in our own homes with 10/20/30 other believers, all crammed in together and cut off from the rest of the body of Christ.
Yet God commands that all be allowed to edify eachother and minister as he leads them. if the large building hinder this with 2000 people gathered. it will be hard if not impossible to allow every one to have in this setting. Gods wisdom is to gather in smaller meetings and he led the apostles to plant churches by his command to them in homes as we see clearly in scripture. Unless you want to say that the apostles were not following Christ in this and they just made up their own ideas? Jesus even from the start showed the apostles how to plant churches when he said,
"11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you." (Matthew 10:11-13)
and here are just a few verses about the pattern we see the apostles using to plant chuches. Note that these letters were written some 60 or more years after Christ death, showing that they still met in homes that long after. And everything we are directed to do in scriputre is not always related to salvation. But many things can indirectly affect others and even salvation if God is not working in the gathering as he commands. Do you think the apostles did these things by their own commands?, or God's?
Jesus also told the disciples where to met on Pentecost. It was in the upper room of a house. Again, the Lord directed them to go there Acts 2.
“Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)
“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)
“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)
“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)
A building is an outward thing - a device which enables Christians to be together
No even if people meet in a large building or a house that does not mean that enables them to be together. the unity in the Spirit is when Christ is working effectually in every part. The together part is in the spirit not by just being in a building. And if they are are just sitting in a large pagan type restructured building made for believers to sit in and watch the show at the front given by the paid professional exalted on a stage where all face the back of eachothers heads. This does not provoke them to love and good works in the edifying of eachother. This cuts off and hinders body ministry and Christ working in the church. yet they often, as you do think they are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing. yet Christ is often standing outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them. You may ask how can I make that judgement about a church . Well i know Gods commands in this area and how we ought to behave ourself in the church and when i see men in disorder and mans order i know that they are hindering Christ from freely working effectually in every part of the body as we are told he seeks to do.
As I have said, it can also be a witness to the community - non Christians know where to go to find comfort, hope, hold their funeral and baptism services etc
This is your own ideas and not scriptural. And you said these religious Babylonian temple type structures (unbiblically called churches) are where UNBELIEVERS can fgo to have their funerals and baptismal services??? let the dead bury their dead follow Christ way and there is no baptism for unbelievers.
It's not wrong to have one, you haven't shown any Scriptures which prove otherwise and I really don't know why you are getting so worked up about it all. As I said, if it doesn't suit you; don't do it.
yes it is wrong , first of all to have a man mad building of brick and mortar and call it "a church". he church is the body of Christ made of living stones a spiritual house, never is it a man made building of brick and mortar made by man. This is a lie to say so. And I am sure thatyou agree liars are not in a good place with God. Also the very so called 'church buildings and "churches made by man, hinder and quench the spirit in the real church 9 the body of Christ) and create a dysfunctional body.spiritually dangerous, hindering to the body of Christ and Christ headship, creates a dysfunctional body, cuts off body ministry and the gifts from freely functioning, fights against the commands of God, sets up men as heads of the church in dominant exalted roles over others, creates schisms in the body of Christ at large and quenches the spirit in the gatherings in many ways, makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions, hinders the family environment of the body of Christ, and the fellowship in the breaking of bread, and many other dangers. And you say we should not get "so worked up about it". Paul did when he saw mand order hindering Christ and peter wrote about this important issue also 1 Peter 4;10,11
Yes because he claimed to fulfil prophecy and then he said that prophets are often welcomed by foreigners but not welcomed in their home town. They didn't try to kill him because he had gone into a building to worship God - because that's what they were doing too.
this is before the New testament had happened. they were still under the law and the places they met Jesus used as a means to evangelize or speak to them. But the new testament church met in their homes around Christ in the midst this can easily be shown all through the pattern they followed in the NT and the commands of God for the freedom of the body to minister under Christ headship. .
1. What does that matter?
2. That's judgemental - you don't know how people prepare their sermons; how much time they spend in prayer and how they deliver them.
3. God can work/speak through anyone - sermon or not; read or delivered by heart.
A sermon prepared by man and set in a time slot on a man made program where he reads the words every week , also hinders the body ministry, The believers are silent in the so called pews and expect the one man that they pay to do all the ministry and he arranges and reads other books and puts together words that he is sharing with them. This is not as all wait on the Lord for teaching and ministry Romans 12 1 Cor 14 1 peter 4;10,11, etc. yes some messages men give are helpful and scriptural. But he was never mean to dominate over all by his pre arranged written messages to the body. If it hinders the commands of God and the free ministry of every joint as Christ work in them, then it is not right. we never read of the early church doing this in their gatherings. they spoke form revelation and urgency and from the gifts of God he gave them. yes some who may write a few verses and thoughts they had revealed to them in the week can share this if God leads. But to dominate over all by their "sermons:" every week is not the order of God.
As far as being judgemental. That is a whole different thread and too long to address that. But believers are to judge all things in spiritual judgement. We are to judge righteous judgement. Paul even says about the Corinthinas and the sin in the gatherings that he has judged already concerning him that hath done this deed. 1 Cor 5. And Paul said let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. We are to judge and discern all things and prove all things and try the spirits etc, So if we know the order of God and see men hindering that order by their traditions and commandments of men, we can judge it according to scripture. God gives believers mighty weapons in the spirit to tear down strongholds. These strongholds have bound up believers for a long time.
Supposing it helps people to worship God, or find him, and faith, in the first place? You berate people for doing these things, yet you refuse to respond to any comments/testimonies where people have said they are helpful and enable us to worship God.
This is always a excuse for people to remain in mans traditions and order. they say well so and so heard the word of God when our pastor was reading and that is good so why say anything else. As I was saying good can often be enemy of the best. And for example God spoke through a donkey, or an ass, in the Ot. Does that mean we are suppose to take an ass and set him in the meeting and wait for God to speak? No. God can work in many situations to reach people. But what i am talking about is the body life and ministry under Christ headship that we are commanded to have. The traditions of man make the word of god of no effect. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for their traditions also. But yes if they read the scriptures and others heard them that was not wrong. i am not saying that there are not many believers in these religious forms there are multitudes. But even God tells his own people to come out of Babylon the great Mother of harlots.
Think of the story of when Gods people were taken captive to Babylon, they also took the holy vessels there and they had synagogues set up eventually etc. When the time to leave Babylon was come only a small group left. they didn't all go and help rebuild on the true ground of promise. Why didn't they all go? they may have been comfortable and they could have said as you do. Well, we have the reading of scripture and the holy vessels here still and people can hear Gods word herein our syagogues etc. But No, that was not Gods plan and they were not n the ground of promise. Similar Gods plan and order for the churches , and His command, is as he has shown. But many have been drawn into the babylonian type religious form that took root in a great way in Rome with Constantine. They have been captured in these religious forms . I feel like God is saying for all to come out of them and to those who hold them captive they must let God;'s people go to wait and serve him and to allow Christ to work effectually in every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
How do you know?
What evidence have you got for saying that Christians who worship all together in one building, have worship leaders, orders of service and listen to sermons are keeping the Lord Jesus out? That is wrong, as well as ridiculous.
I have been showing you just some of the evidence. the full amount is overwhelming to type here. But all we need to know is the order of God and his commands for the church and how they ought to behave themselves when gathered and the set order we see in scripture. If men go away from this then it is wrong and hurtful to the body.
but specifially how do i know if a gathering may be in the similar judgement that Jesus says to laodicea. Well, one of the keys there is that he is outside of their gathering. He is not in the center ministering and participating in them and among them. We know this because he says so in revelation 3. He wants to come into them and sup with them. The sup is the meal with them. This is the communion of the saints. We being many are one bread and we are all partakers of that one bread. This communion is Christ participation with us. This is the same direction Paul wrote of for the churches ( as the Spirit of God revealed it to him) Paul said they are to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly and from that they are able to teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER etc. Paul also told the church at Ephesus that God gave gifts to men, apostle, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teacher, for the edifying of the body. if this is not allowed to happen and if Christ who is the head is not allowed to work effectually in every part to edify the body. they Christ is not in the midst and he will be outside their religious form without power. They will basically play church, not be the church. So when i see any assembly that does not allow body ministry under Christ headship freely every time they gather and they have many traditions set in place that hinder the body i see the dangers of Christ being outside ther gatherings and knocking. Jesus said he would spew them out of his mouth, that is serious and worth consideration. yes they had sin among them and they had no spiritual vision and they were naked, blind and wretched. But if Christ is allowed to edify through the body he will use every part to address all issues. But instead we have a one man ministry and a silent body looking at the back of eachothers heads. You may say but we are so rich and increased with goods we read scripture and people get saved and we have all sorts of good programs etc we have need of nothing. That is what the Laodicean church said. The word Laodicean", means what the people want. This is the problem today, the religious show and entertainment and large temple structures of beauty etc etc and to be able to do what they want is what we see all over today.
Part 1 continued..Part 2
