Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[football5680]

They weren't saved at that first moment but only thought or said that they were.

This supports the argument I was making. They "thought" they were. If they become an apostate later in life then obviously they will not be saved. We cannot place ourselves in one group or the other because we don't know the future. We may affirm the same beliefs that an apostate once held but this affirmation did not save them. In the end this belief tells us nothing and it is much safer to hold the opposing view.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

See the words "born again" in that verse? It's about born again, not salvation.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
John 3:3

Call it being "born again" call it your "salvation experience." Either way, the verse explicitly states that once we have this experience, we become not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, and as a result, God will never let us fall from grace.

This passage is about the free gift of salvation. It's free to everyone. No one will be turn down. That's what it means.

How do you derive that from "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out"?

Let's break it in half. "All that the Father gives me will come to me" references unconditional election. Everyone the Father so wills will come to Christ. "Whoever comes to me I will never cast out" references the fact that everyone the Father so wills to come to Christ can never be separated from Christ, i.e. never fall from grace.

No one will turn it down? I didn't know everyone on earth was Christian.

See where it said "and they follow me?" The Christians following Christ are His sheep and are saved. If you follow sin, you're not following Christ.

See where it says "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"? Christians once saved will never perish, and no one (including themselves) can snatch them out of the Father's or Christ's hand so that they lose their salvation. That's called eternal security.

This is about Christ's love for us, nothing to do with never losing your salvation.

So if Christ's love for us is salvation itself, then how could a God who is sovereign not save someone if for that person He died? If no one has eternal security, then why does Scripture explicitly state that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, which numerous other times refers to our salvation?

This is about God's love. He still loves you even when you've turned away from Him and in hell.

See previous response.

Read all of Romans 11. These gifts are promised blessings, not salvation. And the calling are for the Israelites.

Okay, let's look at context:

"As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."

Sounds like eternal security to me.

See where it said "they would have continued with us?" They were once in the faith. These are Christians that fell away, depart from the faith.

See where it says "they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us"? They were never in the faith.

This is about those who endured till the end and completed their good work. They will be rewarded when Christ returns. This has nothing to do with Christians that fall away nor ever walked in the spirit.

Really? If "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion," then how can those who you claim were once saved really be saved? Are you saying that God began a good work and then quit half way?

You're not being very honest are you?

On the contrary.

This is what 2 Timothy 2:12 said.

2 Timothy 2:12 (ESV) if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

So where does it say that those who denied Christ were saved to begin with? "If we endure" strongly hints at eternal security.

Clearly posting a bunch of misleading passages.

Clearly.

Bottom line: Once saved always saved is an utterly false teaching leading Christians to hell.

Much like the Arminianism you profess.​

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't get it--where does it say we can tell God what He means?? He says what He means---
(Rev 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ananias and Sepphira died lying to God.
Judas lost his salvation--the bible says he fell--in order to fall, you have to saved first.
(Act 1:25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

If you fall, and are unrepentant, you will perish.
(Luk 13:5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you are willfully disobedient and do not repent, you can not be saved---
(Mat 13:19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

(Mat 13:20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

(Mat 13:21) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

(Mat 13:22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

(Mat 13:23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


Jesus describes the ways that people will be lost---even though they once accepted, they turned away--their choice. God doesn't force anyone to stay with Him.

 

[Butch5]

I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?


EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.

I would submit it is fiction. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says one cannot lose salvation.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
John 3:3

Call it being "born again" call it your "salvation experience." Either way, the verse explicitly states that once we have this experience, we become not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, and as a result, God will never let us fall from grace.

How do you derive that from "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out"?

Let's break it in half. "All that the Father gives me will come to me" references unconditional election. Everyone the Father so wills will come to Christ. "Whoever comes to me I will never cast out" references the fact that everyone the Father so wills to come to Christ can never be separated from Christ, i.e. never fall from grace.

No one will turn it down? I didn't know everyone on earth was Christian.

See where it says "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"? Christians once saved will never perish, and no one (including themselves) can snatch them out of the Father's or Christ's hand so that they lose their salvation. That's called eternal security.

So if Christ's love for us is salvation itself, then how could a God who is sovereign not save someone if for that person He died? If no one has eternal security, then why does Scripture explicitly state that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, which numerous other times refers to our salvation?

See previous response.

Okay, let's look at context:

"As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."

Sounds like eternal security to me.

See where it says "they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us"? They were never in the faith.

Really? If "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion," then how can those who you claim were once saved really be saved? Are you saying that God began a good work and then quit half way?

On the contrary.

So where does it say that those who denied Christ were saved to begin with? "If we endure" strongly hints at eternal security.

Clearly.

Much like the Arminianism you profess.​

Pretty much all your conclusions are unmerited. If you want answers to your debate, it's like trying to explain calculus to someone who has yet to learn and fully understand basic algebra. Covering the first three topics as examples.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
John 3:3

Call it being "born again" call it your "salvation experience." Either way, the verse explicitly states that once we have this experience, we become not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, and as a result, God will never let us fall from grace.

First topic and first off. You got the wrong idea of what born again means. To say and think "born again" implies "salvation experience" clearly tells me you don't know what it means.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
John 3:3

Being born again is not about going to heaven. Because the kingdom of God is within you. Salvation takes you to the kingdom of heaven. Eternal Life takes you to the kingdom of God. Know the differences.

Luke 17:21 King James Bible
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

* What born again is not.

Many speak of having been “born again.” Millions of Protestants and tens of millions of evangelicals think that after becoming “believers” they have been “born again.” Having no idea what the term actually meant, they had been taught that “professing Jesus” was a kind of “new birth”—that they were in some mysterious way “born a second time.” It next became their Christian duty to bring others to this belief.
http://realtruth.org/articles/140311-001.html​

* Born again explanation - the short version

Born again is a phrase used by many Protestants to describe the phenomenon of gaining faith in Jesus Christ. It is an experience when everything they have been taught as Christians becomes real, and they develop a direct and personal relationship with God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_(Christianity)​

This is a process that takes time, a transformation into a new man. This doesn't happen overnight the moment you accept the gift of salvation.

* Born again explained - the long version

“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” (Romans 12:2).

Recently I ran into a woman I had not seen for several weeks. I hardly recognized her. Her hair, usually blonde, had turned completely white. The transformation was dramatic; she looked like a different person. All it took was 40 minutes and some bleach!

If only spiritual transformation were that easy. Just read a book, see a counselor, attend a conference, make a fresh commitment, resolve to be different, shed a few tears at an altar, memorize a few verses…and, presto, out comes a mature, godly Christian.

To the contrary, the experience of many believers looks like this:
​

• • Commit. Fail. Confess.
  • Re-commit. Fail again. Confess again.
  • Re-re-commit. Fail again. Give up.

After all the struggle and the effort, we tend to want a “quick fix” – a book, a conference, a counselor, an encounter, a miraculous deliverance, a program – something that will be effective and preferably pain-free. We want God (or someone else) to do something to us for a once-for-all victory so that we won’t have to keep wrestling with the same old issues.

In my own walk with God, I have discovered some helpful principles about how spiritual change takes place.
​

• • Deep, lasting spiritual change is a processIt rarely happens overnight. It involves training, testing and time. There are no shortcuts. We hear of people being dramatically delivered from drug or alcohol addiction, and we may wonder, “Why doesn’t God do that for me? Why do I have to struggle with this food addiction, with lust, worry, and fear, with an unbridled tongue?”
• 
  
  Occasionally God does grant instantaneous victory, but more often He leads us through a process that requires obedience, faith, discipline and time. God is committed to winning the hearts, developing the hearts and developing the character of His people.​

• • Spiritual change requires desireWe need to ask ourselves: Do I really want to change, or am I content to remain as I am? How important is it to me to be like Jesus? What price am I willing to pay to be godly?
• 
  
  Deep within God’s children is a desire to please Him. That desire is nurtured by prayer (acknowledging our dependence on Him) and by meditation on Christ, the object of our desire. As I read the Scripture and gaze on the Lord Jesus, I long to be like Him – humble, holy, compassionate, surrendered to the will of God, sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit. When our desire to be holy is greater than our willingness to stay where we are, we have taken a big step toward spiritual transformation.​

• • Spiritual change flows out of an intimate relationship with JesusWe want to please those we love, and we are grieved when we offend them. The more we love Jesus, the greater will be our motivation to obey Him and to make the choices that please Him. The ultimate issue in life is what or whom we worship. The process of true change takes place as we are weaned from our love and worship of self, pleasure and this world; and our hearts become wholly devoted to Christ.

• • Spiritual change requires disciplineI can remember as a college student sitting for hours on end in tiny, windowless practice rooms, playing the same piece of music again and again. I knew that I never would reach my goal – to make beautiful music – without that rigorous discipline.
• 
  
  Discipline for the purpose of godliness is not the same as self effort. Rather, it means consciously cooperating with the Holy Spirit – yielding to Him so that He can conform us to the image of Christ. The problem is, we want the outcome without the process. We want victory without the warfare.
  
  Praying and hoping for spiritual change is futile if we sit glued to a television set or neglect the means that God has provided for our growth in grace. Bible study, meditation, worship, prayer, fasting, accountability and obedience are disciplines that produce a harvest of righteousness in our lives.​

• • Spiritual change is brought about by the Holy Spirit, as we exercise faith and obedienceSo which is it? Does God do the work, or do we? According to Scripture, the answer is “yes.” Philippians 2:12-13 says, “Work out your salvation…for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” True spiritual change is initiated and enabled by the indwelling Spirit of God; it is all of grace, which we receive as we persevere in humility, obedience and faith.

• • Spiritual change is possible (and assured) because of the new life we received when we were born againAccording to God’s Word, at the point of regeneration we became, “a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). For believers, holy living is not a matter of trying harder, but rather of walking in the reality of a supernatural change that already has taken place. Sanctification is the process by which the change of God has wrought within us is worked out in our daily experience, as we “are being transformed into [Christ’s] likeness” (2 Corinthians 3:18). It is a lifelong – and sometimes painful – process. But we have the confidence that one day the transformation will be complete, and, “we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
  • http://powertochange.com/experience/spiritual-growth/transformation/

This is a process that takes time, a transformation into a new man. This doesn't happen overnight the moment you accept the gift of salvation.

​

.

How do you derive that from "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out"?

Let's break it in half. "All that the Father gives me will come to me" references unconditional election. Everyone the Father so wills will come to Christ. "Whoever comes to me I will never cast out" references the fact that everyone the Father so wills to come to Christ can never be separated from Christ, i.e. never fall from grace.

No one will turn it down? I didn't know everyone on earth was Christian.

John 6:37 King James Bible
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No, you got it backwards. It 100% conditionally selective. God will not send you to Christ until you're ready. Your conclusion is based upon a new believer. This process happens during believer's transformation when God feels he is ready to take up his cross daily. Read below.

John 6:65 King James Bible
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Ask yourself this question, when you accepted Christ gift of salvation as a new believer, were you willing to give up everything, family etc to follow Christ daily and carry your cross? How many new believers do you know who would make such a commitment the moment they accept the gift of salvation?

Luke 14:26-27
26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

.

See where it says "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"? Christians once saved will never perish, and no one (including themselves) can snatch them out of the Father's or Christ's hand so that they lose their salvation. That's called eternal security.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never die. No one can snatch them away from me. 29 than everything, and no one can snatch them away from the Father's care.

Now here you don't understand eternal life. You think it's immortality because the topic of the OP is once saved always saved. Most of the time in the bible, eternal life is not always about immortality.

The reason why no one can separate His sheep from Him is because they are currently living the eternal life. They been reborn the new birth with the imperishable seed of God. They do not follow sin any longer, and desire only to do good. A new man with a new nature.

* In the Synoptic Gospels and the Pauline Letters, eternal life is generally regarded as a future experience, but the Gospel of John differs from them in its emphasis on eternal life as a "present possession". Raymond E. Brown points out that in the synoptic gospels eternal life is something received at the final judgment, or a future age (Mark 10:30, Matthew 18:8-9) but the Gospel of John positions eternal life as a present possibility, as in John 5:24.

Thus, unlike the synoptics, in the Gospel of John eternal life is not only futuristic, but also pertains to the present. In John, those who accept Christ can possess life "here and now" as well as in eternity, for they have "passed from death to life", as in John 5:24: "He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_life_(Christianity)


* Most people think of eternal life as living forever in heaven. But it's more than that. Eternal life also is a here-and-now thing.

Probably the best-known Bible reference to eternal life is John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

In that verse, "eternal" translates a word in the original language that means "agelong." The idea is of life that never ends. It points to an afterlife where there is no death. But it also is talking about eternal life that we "have" right now -- not "will have someday."

Jesus -- who God raised from the dead -- made a promise to people who have eternal life: "I Myself will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:40). That gives you hope for the future, even if life right now is really hard.

Eternal life means escaping the power of death. This life is ruled by death. Everything that lives will die. Physically, there is no way to escape it. But death wasn't the end of the story for Jesus -- God brought Him back to life. In the same way, death isn't the end of the story for us. The Bible says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

What eternal life is NOT is eternal death. John 3:16 says that people with eternal life will not "perish," a word that means "be totally destroyed." Matthew 25:46 talks about "eternal punishment" as the destiny of people whose lives aren't lived God's way. If eternal life is living forever with God, then maybe the opposite is dying forever, or maybe it's living forever apart from God.

But eternal life isn't just something that starts after you die. It's also a here-and-now thing.

"Eternal life" also refers to the quality of this life. Jesus said "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly" (John 10:10). "Abundantly," in the original language, means "more extremely." When ordinary life is routine and boring, Jesus gives you a new life that is Xtreme!

Eternal life is God's own life, living in you. If you want to know what that means, look at the kind of life Jesus lived. Piercing insight into the most troubling and confusing problems people face. Strength to win the struggles with sin that people usually lose. God's miracle-working power that turns impossible situations into exciting victories.

Eternal life is full and free, like a natural spring that keeps bubbling up fresh, cool water even in the time of serious drought (John 4:14).

Most of all, eternal life is the kind of life that results from a close, loving relationship with our heavenly Father and His only Son. “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17:3).

Eternal life is a life that is full and free and forever. It is peace, joy and assurance. It is comfort, strength and hope. It's never-ending life with God life in heaven after we die, but it's also abundant life here and now.

It's the kind of life all of us really want. It's the kind of life we can never achieve. It's the kind of life God gives us for free when we finally admit how much we need His help.
http://www.mostimportantthing.org/what-do-you-mean-by-eternal-life
​

Do you not know Christianity is about a relationship with God? Once you have that close relationship with God, it's real life, Eternal Life.

How do you receive eternal life? Well it's not by accepting Christ's gift of salvation as you think in John 3:16.

Luke 10:25-37
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him,and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’

36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

Matthew 19:16-22 NKJV
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Eternal life isn't about salvation. You don't receive by confessing your sins and accepting the gift of salvation. Eternal life is about what you can do to get it.

John 5:38-40 NKJV
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

John 10:10 NKJV
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

And you don't wait to experience eternal life after you die. You can have it now because it's about a relationship with God. The good life in Him.

You might want to study the bible more. There's a lot you need to know, especially salvation. You're just putting your soul at risk with this once saved always saved mentality.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

WHO IS THIS THAT DARKENS COUNSEL BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?
Job 38:2
​

Before I get into a point-by-point refutation of your argument, I think it would be beneficial for you to understand the definition of eternal security (and its distinct corollary, "Once Saved Always Saved"). You keep referring to the doctrine in a very specific [misguided] tone, and it's necessary to define a few things.

Eternal security, probably better known as the perseverance of the saints, is a complicated doctrine usually found closely linked with Calvinist Reformed theology (distinguished in this instance from Arminian "Reformed" theology).

We must start the discussion of this point by clarifying the doctrine of total depravity, which is the belief that man, utterly dead in sins and trespasses, fallen in nature, cannot in any way, shape, or form cease sinning, accept the gift of salvation, and choose God, save by the efficacious and ultimately irresistible grace of God.

We can see in Ephesians 1:3-14 that God has predestined us to Him in Christ, and Jesus resoundingly states that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44) further solidifying the fact that God draws us to Him, and that we do not choose Him. Man has to be drawn by the Father to Christ before they can believe.

We Calvinists take this doctrine a step farther, and posit a simple question: if God [the Father] has drawn the elect to Himself in God [the Son] through Himself in God [the Holy Spirit], regenerating our hearts and convincing ourselves of our own sin, saving us by His own work and power and not by a single contribution of ourselves, then why would it not follow that God would keep us through this same power unto the end of time and throughout all eternity? We "who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5).

Thus, eternal security is vastly different from the "cheap grace" that many non-Calvinists claim it is. It is not an excuse to continually and freely sin as all sins are covered by Christ. Rather, in its simplest terms, eternal security refers to the doctrine that mankind, in its fallen state, cannot choose God, and that the same God who by His mercy ordained the elect from before the earth began to believe on His Son Jesus Christ and be saved not by their power but simply by His Sovereign Grace and Mercy will naturally be kept within His grace for time and all eternity, and those He wills to be saved ultimately will be.

Now let's discuss your arguments.

First topic and first off. You got the wrong idea of what born again means. To say and think "born again" implies "salvation experience" clearly tells me you don't know what it means.

So what then is it?

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

John 3:3
Being born again is not about going to heaven. Because the kingdom of God is within you. Salvation takes you to the kingdom of heaven. Eternal Life takes you to the kingdom of God. Know the differences.

Where in scripture is a distinction made between the two?

Luke 17:21

King James Bible
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Completely true! "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).

Many speak of having been “born again.” Millions of Protestants and tens of millions of evangelicals think that after becoming “believers” they have been “born again.” Having no idea what the term actually meant, they had been taught that “professing Jesus” was a kind of “new birth”—that they were in some mysterious way “born a second time.” It next became their Christian duty to bring others to this belief.

What does the Bible teach about this subject? And what did Jesus really say about it? It is far from what you have been taught. In this Personal, the truth about being born again will be made absolutely PLAIN! We will be thorough. And it will be impossible to misunderstand

Almost none take the time to examine—to prove—what God’s Word says about being born again. If they did, they would be stunned—astonished—at what they found! In fact, this would apply to almost any Bible subject.

Most professing Christians assume the Bible says what they have been told it says. They have been taught that being “born again” occurs in this life, upon “receiving Jesus.” But this is not what the Bible teaches. “Born again” has nothing whatsoever to do with “professing Jesus”—or “just believing in your heart”—or “giving your heart to the Lord”—or any so-called religious experience. This does not happen at conversion—but rather, the Bible teaches that rebirth comes long after this initial step in a new Christian’s life.
http://realtruth.org/articles/140311-001.html

Do you really have to copy and paste a poorly written article from Real Truth, the official website of the Restored Church of God, which it should be noted has next to no credibility within the larger Christian world in order to combat a commonly held theological viewpoint?

Born again is a phrase used by many Protestants to describe the phenomenon of gaining faith in Jesus Christ. It is an experience when everything they have been taught as Christians becomes real, and they develop a direct and personal relationship with God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_(Christianity)

Though slightly more credible than Real Truth, Wikipedia is not a valid source for debate. If they won't let you use it to write middle school papers, it shouldn't be used in a proper discussion.

This is a process that takes time, a transformation into a new man. This doesn't happen overnight the moment you accept the gift of salvation.

Where is the evidence for (a) the belief that the born again experience takes time, and (b) that the gift of salvation can be accepted by mankind in its natural state?

Born again explained - the long version [...] http://powertochange.com/experience/spiritual-growth/transformation/

Another biased source used. Power to Change is the Canadian arm of Cru, which is a heavily Arminian organization.

No, you got it backwards. It 100% conditionally selective. God will not send you to Christ until you're ready. Your conclusion is based upon a new believer. This process happens during believer's transformation when God feels he is ready to take up his cross daily.

And your proof is?

Ask yourself this question, when you accepted Christ gift of salvation as a new believer, were you willing to give up everything, family etc to follow Christ daily and carry your cross? How many new believers do you know who would make such a commitment the moment they accept the gift of salvation? [...] You might want to study the bible more. There's a lot you need to know, especially salvation. You're just putting your soul at risk with this once saved always saved mentality.

150% of the argument between these two sentences hinges on Arminianism, which is extremely un-Biblical. You ought to read the Bible more, and google "total depravity". Maybe it'll teach you something. If not, I'll just leave this here:

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe in the believer's conditional security. That means as long as a person remains a God-loving christian, he's saved. If he stops being a christian, he's not saved. Let's say he commits apostasy, he would then lose his salvation and desperately needs to come back to Christ.

But where are any verses that actually support this by clearly worded statements to that end? There are not. None of the verses provided by the conditional security folk (generally the warning passages) do not even contain the words "salvation", or "eternal life" or "loss".

If one's salvation could be removed, taken away, or lost, then the Bible sure did a very poor job of communicating that.

In general, the warning passages are about God's heavy hand of discipline or loss of reward.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's either fiction or irrelevant.

To hold this belief you must say that somebody who was once Christian and believed everything that you believed, but then later on changed their mind and rejected God, is still saved. Obviously the Bible would reject this idea so you would be forced into a position where you must say that they were never saved in the first place.

Jesus Himself noted in a parable about soils that some "believe for a while" and then fall away. By "fall away", He was referring to their faith. Their faith ceased, obviously. But there is nothing in that parable (or anywhere else in Scripture) that teaches or warns that if one quits believing, they lose salvation. That is just an assumption from an incomplete understanding of Scripture.

If they were never saved in the first place even though they believed exactly what you believed at one point in time, then how do you know if you are saved.

If one believes "exactly what you believe" (a saved person), then that person is also saved. We call it "saving faith".

You couldn't possibly know so this belief tells you nothing.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Eph 2:8

Jesus taught that God's children (saved people) are held in His hand. Not the other way around. So even those who quit believing are still being held by God the Father's hand.

Both justification (Rom 5:16) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are gifts of God. And God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29.

2 Tim 2:13 teaches that even if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

And, finally, when one believes, they sealed by the Holy Spirit "in Him" (Eph 1:13). This is union with Christ. And this seal is a promise or pledge for the Day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:

Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul appears to state that some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.

​

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava3.htm

To "inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "having an inheritance IN the kingdom" found in Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Both 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Eph 5:5 say the same thing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would submit it is fiction. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says one cannot lose salvation.

There is actually a lot. otoh, there is nothing in Scripture that says that one can lose salvation.

 

[Near]

But where are any verses that actually support this by clearly worded statements to that end? There are not. None of the verses provided by the conditional security folk (generally the warning passages) do not even contain the words "salvation", or "eternal life" or "loss".
If one's salvation could be removed, taken away, or lost, then the Bible sure did a very poor job of communicating that.
In general, the warning passages are about God's heavy hand of discipline or loss of reward.

Your statement only says that the Bible did a poor job of communicating the idea that one can be lost after he has been saved. You didn't seem to say that the Bible actually is against the idea of it.

Perhaps things can best be explained with a series of propositions.
1) A man who has faith in Christ is saved
2) A man who doesn't have faith in Christ is not saved
3) A man who has faith in Christ, can later loss his faith in Christ
4) See point 2.

The bible contains passages about people who have shipwrecked their faith.
If we understand shipwrecked to mean, lost, or destroyed, the fact of the matter is, one can loss their salvation.
2 Tim 2:
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

Furthermore,
2 Peter 2 describes those who once knew Jesus, but left him being worse off than before.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Peter speaks of those who who have actually become apostates. They knew Jesus, but turned from him. The expression of it being better for them to have never known "The Way", gives us the indication of the penalty for such a sin. It certainly is not an early entrance into God's kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your statement only says that the Bible did a poor job of communicating the idea that one can be lost after he has been saved.

I actually said a lot more than that.

You didn't seem to say that the Bible actually is against the idea of it.

I actually made the case that one is saved forever.

Perhaps things can best be explained with a series of propositions.
1) A man who has faith in Christ is saved
2) A man who doesn't have faith in Christ is not saved
3) A man who has faith in Christ, can later loss his faith in Christ
4) See point 2.

The fallacy of this idea is refuted by the fact that when one believes in Christ, they are sealed "in Him" which is union with Christ, per Eh 1:13. This sealing is a promise or pledge for the "day of redemption" per Eph 4:30. We find the same principle in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 about the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Believers are sealed. Please show me any verse that warns of or specifically states that God goes back on His promise. There aren't any. This sealing of the Holy Spirit is permanent. Jesus said that the promised Holy Spirit would be with us forever. Jn 14.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 5:16 says that justification is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

The bible contains passages about people who have shipwrecked their faith.

Why should there be the assumption that this means loss of salvation?

If we understand shipwrecked to mean, lost, or destroyed, the fact of the matter is, one can loss their salvation.

No, loss of one's faith.

2 Tim 2:
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

Let's consider 2 Tim 2:13 - If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Since every believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them (Gal 3:2,5) and is God, 2 Tim 2:13 teaches that God cannot deny Himself, which has to include the Holy Spirit.

And, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, all by itself. The Holy Spirit simply "seals" the deal.

Furthermore,
2 Peter 2 describes those who once knew Jesus, but left him being worse off than before.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Peter speaks of those who who have actually become apostates. They knew Jesus, but turned from him. The expression of it being better for them to have never known "The Way", gives us the indication of the penalty for such a sin. It certainly is not an early entrance into God's kingdom.

Context is everything. This passage is not referring to eternity, as is being assumed, but refers to one's time on this earth before departing.

We know this because of the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the fact that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

We cannot just pick and choose individual verses or passages and demand that they are referring to loss of salvation when there are very clear verses that refute that idea very clearly.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well---I have the feeling that a lot of "forever saved" believers who have died in their sins, unrepentant, will be hearing the words---
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Albion]

But where are any verses that actually support this by clearly worded statements to that end? There are not. None of the verses provided by the conditional security folk (generally the warning passages) do not even contain the words "salvation", or "eternal life" or "loss".

Nevertheless, there are verses that seem clearly to speak to the belief, and it's self-defeating to claim that they don't exist. The idea that they might be outweighted by those that seem to speak of free will might be a way to approach this, but for some reason, freewillers never want to do that.

 

[SailorSam]

Salvation is eternal, and nothing shall separate us from the love of God.
imagine salvation like a jar of preserves. left alone they last indefinitely.
however, it is possible for an outside force to intervene and ruin the 'eternal' preservation.
if salvation was eternal and unchangeable, why would the Lord warn in the Book of Revelation 'lest your name be blotted out'? if the warning is there, such a thing must be possible. Note that the name IS ALREADY IN THE BOOK, and may be blotted out.
if one is sincere, one will stay faithful, and need not worry. It takes a conscious decision to become saved; it takes a wilfull conscious decision to lose salvation.
(imho)

 

[Albion]

Salvation is eternal, and nothing shall separate us from the love of God.
imagine salvation like a jar of preserves. left alone they last indefinitely.

if salvation was eternal and unchangeable, why would the Lord warn in the Book of Revelation 'lest your name be blotted out'? if the warning is there, such a thing must be possible. Note that the name IS ALREADY IN THE BOOK, and may be blotted out.
if one is sincere, one will stay faithful, and need not worry. It takes a conscious decision to become saved; it takes a wilfull conscious decision to lose salvation.
(imho)

But once again, it's whatever the Bible teaches that matters...and I find that the verses that seem to teach Eternal Security are hard to put aside. Besides, if we are going to speak logically--as you were doing--I don't see anything logical in saying that God would allow anyone who has repented and been saved to fall after Jesus told his disciples not to worry. If I were to believe the freewill, salvation by works, no Eternal Security folks, I would be terrified instead! The only reason that the people who belong to churches that teach such a view aren't terrified every day is because they can't really bring themselves to believe that if they give their lives to Jesus, they can still be lost eternally by just one slip-up a moment before the heart attack.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

To "inherit the kingdom" is equivalent to "having an inheritance IN the kingdom" found in Eph 5:5

How do you have an inheritance in the kingdom when the kingdom of God is within you?

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say , Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold , the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

WHO IS THIS THAT DARKENS COUNSEL BY WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE?
Job 38:2​

​

Introduction to Calvinism.

Mark 7:6-9 GNT
6 Jesus answered them, “How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote:

‘These people, says God, honor me with their words,
but their heart is really far away from me.
7 It is no use for them to worship me,
because they teach human rules
as though they were my laws!’​

8 “You put aside God's command and obey human teachings.”
9 And Jesus continued, “You have a clever way of rejecting God's law in order to uphold your own teaching.

​

Before I get into a point-by-point refutation of your argument, I think it would be beneficial for you to understand the definition of eternal security (and its distinct corollary, "Once Saved Always Saved"). You keep referring to the doctrine in a very specific [misguided] tone, and it's necessary to define a few things.

Eternal security, probably better known as the perseverance of the saints, is a complicated doctrine usually found closely linked with Calvinist Reformed theology (distinguished in this instance from Arminian "Reformed" theology).

http://heresies.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/calvinism.html
Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." ​

​

We must start the discussion of this point by clarifying the doctrine of total depravity, which is the belief that man, utterly dead in sins and trespasses, fallen in nature, cannot in any way, shape, or form cease sinning, accept the gift of salvation, and choose God, save by the efficacious and ultimately irresistible grace of God.

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:​

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bgcF0ZMJ40​

We can see in Ephesians 1:3-14 that God has predestined us to Him in Christ, and Jesus resoundingly states that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44) further solidifying the fact that God draws us to Him, and that we do not choose Him. Man has to be drawn by the Father to Christ before they can believe.

We Calvinists take this doctrine a step farther, and posit a simple question: if God [the Father] has drawn the elect to Himself in God [the Son] through Himself in God [the Holy Spirit], regenerating our hearts and convincing ourselves of our own sin, saving us by His own work and power and not by a single contribution of ourselves, then why would it not follow that God would keep us through this same power unto the end of time and throughout all eternity? We "who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5).

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."​

Thus, eternal security is vastly different from the "cheap grace" that many non-Calvinists claim it is. It is not an excuse to continually and freely sin as all sins are covered by Christ. Rather, in its simplest terms, eternal security refers to the doctrine that mankind, in its fallen state, cannot choose God, and that the same God who by His mercy ordained the elect from before the earth began to believe on His Son Jesus Christ and be saved not by their power but simply by His Sovereign Grace and Mercy will naturally be kept within His grace for time and all eternity, and those He wills to be saved ultimately will be.

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."​

Before I get into a point-by-point refutation of your argument,
Now let's discuss your arguments.

*So what then is it?

*Where in scripture is a distinction made between the two?

*Completely true! "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).

*Do you really have to copy and paste a poorly written article from Real Truth, the official website of the Restored Church of God, which it should be noted has next to no credibility within the larger Christian world in order to combat a commonly held theological viewpoint?

*Though slightly more credible than Real Truth, Wikipedia is not a valid source for debate. If they won't let you use it to write middle school papers, it shouldn't be used in a proper discussion.

*Where is the evidence for (a) the belief that the born again experience takes time, and (b) that the gift of salvation can be accepted by mankind in its natural state?

*Another biased source used. Power to Change is the Canadian arm of Cru, which is a heavily Arminian organization.

*And your proof is?

*150% of the argument between these two sentences hinges on Arminianism, which is extremely un-Biblical. You ought to read the Bible more, and google "total depravity". Maybe it'll teach you something. If not, I'll just leave this here:

​

What exactly did you refute? All I see are a bunch of questions and comments. Where are the bible verses? Manmade doctrines carries no weight against the words of God.

Did you mean the skele picture? Oh yeah that's a very traditional calvinist rebuttal.

 

[Albion]

This supports the argument I was making. They "thought" they were. If they become an apostate later in life then obviously they will not be saved.

That doesn't say anything about OSAS, however. It just means that these people won't be saved because they are not disciples.

We cannot place ourselves in one group or the other because we don't know the future.

That's right but, again, it doesn't bear upon the issue.

We may affirm the same beliefs that an apostate once held but this affirmation did not save them. In the end this belief tells us nothing and it is much safer to hold the opposing view.

The critical point to all of this is whether or not the person has Faith. Faith is the vehicle for our salvation. But does everyone who claims to have faith in Christ truly have that which we call "Saving Faith," a relationship with God that transcends mere acceptance of doctrines? We would be making a big mistake to think that a profession of believing must, necessarily, amount to having Faith.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Introduction to Calvinism.

Now go through every single verse you posted and show me explicitly why they are in direct opposition to Calvinism. No copy-pasting from independent Baptist or Arminian sights, no improper grammar, no youtube links, no out of context verses. Just plain and simple explanations thought up by you and you alone.

Think you can do that?

If so, I would be glad to respond to any and all arguments put forth. As it is, whenever I make a decent point, you copy-paste drivel from clearly biased Arminian sources that have zero understanding of the Reformed tradition and its most basic tenets.

​