When was the Flood of Noah?

[PeterDona]

A minimum bound.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

We have found Homo Sapiens fossils dating back 195,000 years.

Ah, I remember when I was a small child, my mother bought me a book for collection photos, and the location was the "Omo river" in Ethiopia. What a coincidence, that to buy those collection photos you had to buy Omo washing powder (which she did not). I must have been ... 5-6 years old or something.

But of course, you would know my counterargument ... how would they even know those ages? Some dating method, or what layer it was found, or .....

 

[DogmaHunter]

You are de-railing the OP, which is about the date of the flood. If you want to talk about why it never happened, open your own thread.

I'ld say providing evidence that there is no date for the flood since it never occured, is quite on-topic.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well, thankfully, that theory cannot be tested, can it?

Why "thankfully"? Because it would be a problem for your dogmatic beliefs?

Well, thankfully, it isn't so much a theory as it is a fact.

Consider this examples: remove 99% of all dog breeds and only keep great danes and st bernards.
Do you think mating them will produce a chiwawa?


See? Killing 99% of the population means losing 99% of the genetic variation. I used dogs as an example because of the many many breeds. It makes it easier to understand.

But even within the same breed, this remains factual. Within single species, there exists a LOT of variation.

Consider another example....
The human races. Black, caucasian, asian, aboriginals,...

Now kill everyone except a handfull of asians.
Do you think they will have black or white descendants?

See?
And the same goes if we go a level deeper still. As deep as the actual genetics.

We even see this in human populations. When humans migrated out of africa, the largest population of human stayed behind. The group that migrated, had far less genetic variation then those that stayed behind.

This loss of variation is so extreme that we take dna samples of a random white french person and a random chinese person, there is actually LESS genetic variation between them then between 2 random (unrelated) black people in the same city in Africa.


So, to conclude...

Yes, this is very testable.
And the results are not in favor of biblical stories.

 

[RickG]

Ah, I remember when I was a small child, my mother bought me a book for collection photos, and the location was the "Omo river" in Ethiopia. What a coincidence, that to buy those collection photos you had to buy Omo washing powder (which she did not). I must have been ... 5-6 years old or something.

But of course, you would know my counterargument ... how would they even know those ages? Some dating method, or what layer it was found, or .....

They certainly aren't made up or assumed. Dating methods involve precise scientific techniques, contrary to what the "creation science" community wants their target audience to believe by way of misrepresenting those techniques.

 

[The Cadet]

Ah, I remember when I was a small child, my mother bought me a book for collection photos, and the location was the "Omo river" in Ethiopia. What a coincidence, that to buy those collection photos you had to buy Omo washing powder (which she did not). I must have been ... 5-6 years old or something.

But of course, you would know my counterargument ... how would they even know those ages? Some dating method, or what layer it was found, or .....

While I don't have access to the full text, the abstract of the paper publicizing these finds goes in to some detail about the dating methods used.

 

[Ben West]

If all you can offer is this continuing series of unevidenced, disjointed claims, then please do not bother wasting my time with your gibberish.

Dear Readers, Notice that when people who promote Evolution cannot refute God's Holy Word and they don't post actual evidence, but instead, make statements like the one above just before they run away. It's another example of the Faith it takes to believe the False ToE since they cannot support their views with actual evidence. Amen?

 

[Ben West]

The complete absence of what should be very obvious evidence to support such a claim. If you told me that there was a forest fire in the hills behind my home last night, I should expect to see some evidence to support your claim. If, on the other hand, I see no smoke residue, no scorched earth, no blackened trees, no reports on the local media, no comments from residents in that area, then I have every justification for making a counter claim that that fire did not occur.

Now, the evidence of such a cataclysmic event as a global flood would be expected to leave behind far more significant evidence. There is none. It didn't happen. It's a myth.

Dear Readers, There is NO evidence of a Global Flood on our Earth since such thinking is UnScriptural and promoted by those who who do NOT understand what is actually written. The Flood sank Adam's firmament into Lake Van, Turkey releasing the Ark into the biggest Lake in the area, exactly where one would put a 450 ft long Boat.

The Ark brought Adam's unique high intelligence level, which is like God's Gen 3:22 to our Planet which did NOT produce ANY Humans by magical Evolution, no matter how the believers in Godless evolution rant and rave.

The historic evidence below completely refutes their False Notions. Notice that they won't even try to refute it. It's because they CANNOT. Amen?

http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

 

[Ben West]

let me say, I certainly do not hope. Interesting, do you know what a scoffer means in danish language? Someone who is disappointing, someone for which you had expectations that they cannot fulfil.

In Greek, which is the language used, Scoffer means:

1. to play with, trifle with
   
   
   1. to mock
      
      
   2. to delude, deceive
      
2. Reminds me of Satan. Amen?

 

[Ben West]

Don't know why ancient civilizations such as the Egyptians, Chinese, and other groups of people, such as the Native Americans, Aboriginals, etc, did not get the memo of the Flood.....and were not drowned to death.

It's because the Flood totally destroyed Adam's Earth and NOT the present Earth. Amen?

 

[Ben West]

QV please: The Sixteen Grandsons of Noah

From the site:>> When Noah and his family stepped out of the Ark, they were the only people on Earth. It fell to Noah’s three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives, to repopulate the Earth through the children that were born to them after the Flood. Of Noah’s grandchildren, 16 grandsons are named in Genesis chapter 10.<<

The above information is the view of ancient Theologians and does not agree with Scripture, Science not History. Noah's 3 sons were already married when they got on the Ark. Gen 6:18 Noah's grandsons would have had NO other Human to marry. Such an event would also cause a Bottleneck in the Human genome and could NOT explain WHERE the 7 Billion Humans alive today, came from. Nor can it explain HOW the DNA and ERVs of the common ancestor of Apes got inside today's Humans.

The grandsons of Noah, like Cain on Adam's Earth, married one of the sons of God (prehistoric people) who were already here and had been for Millions of years when Noah arrived. The combination of the sons of God (prehistoric people) and Humans (Adam's daughters) Gen 6:4 passed Adam's unique superior intelligence, which is like God's Gen 3:22, to the children of this combination. This is HOW God produced the 7 Billion Humans alive today on Planet Earth. Our God is an Awesome God and Jesus is LORD. God Bless you

 

[Ben West]

A minimum bound.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm

We have found Homo Sapiens fossils dating back 195,000 years.

False assumption since the bones of the sons of God (prehistoric people) are what was found. Science has confused the sons of God with Humans. The sons of God were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam) but instead, came forth from the water at God's command on the 5th Day, Gen 1:21 along with "every other creature that moveth". This event happened on Adam's Earth AND the present Earth. Gen 6:4 This means that we will find life all over the Universe where we find liquid water but we can find Human life ONLY on Planet Earth. This is because there was but ONE Ark. Amen?

 

[RickG]

False assumption since the bones of the sons of God (prehistoric people) are what was found. Science has confused the sons of God with Humans. The sons of God were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam) but instead, came forth from the water at God's command on the 5th Day, Gen 1:21 along with "every other creature that moveth". This event happened on Adam's Earth AND the present Earth. Gen 6:4 This means that we will find life all over the Universe where we find liquid water but we can find Human life ONLY on Planet Earth. This is because there was but ONE Ark. Amen?

Is that a GAP theory explanation?

 

[Saucy]

There is evidence of a flood. It's all over the world. There is evidence that water covered the entire earth. Of course, because of the scientific column, scientists misinterpret the evidence. But it's still there.

Take a minute and for the sake of my argument, imagine the creation story as true. God just created the whole earth in six days as written. He takes a modern scientist and sets him in the middle of the garden. He sees the trees and says, "they have fruit on them! They're fully grown and mature!" He walks over and sees Adam, a fully-grown man. A scientist would see all of this going on and assume, just based on naturalistic processes, that the earth is old, at the very least as old as the trees in the garden. But he'd be wrong because it was just created the day before.

This is why you can't study the naturalistic processes and find evidence of God, creation, or supernatural events. What you look at and assume took a million years of slow, steady work could've been formed in a much shorter amount of time. You look at the Grand Canyon and see millions of years, but it could've been created as a result of the flood. In fact, a lot of creation scientists say the Grand Canyon is great evidence for it.

My biggest gripe with so-called scientific discovery is most of it is imagined. Yes, science has a lot of great uses in our society. I absolutely adored seeing Pluto for the first time. But studies of things that you claim happened millions and billions into the past? That's ALL assumption. They then create these elaborate drawings. My point is, this stuff is then FORCED upon us and taken as facts. And if I don't accept it as a fact, some atheist says I'm an idiot.

But those 'facts' change. Constantly. Virtually everything in my high school science book is now obsolete and 'proven' incorrect. How many times has a new discovery 'proven' previous 'facts' incorrect? How often has the age of the earth changed to accommodate those new 'facts'? A TON of assumptions are made in science.

At least with the global flood, we have stories of witnesses that were passed down. Someone asked about how all the nations in the world have stories passed down, but doesn't that prove there was a flood? I mean, the bible does describe the Tower of Babel, how God dispersed peoples across the world. And when you look at ancient civilizations from the same time, they virtually mirror each other. Like pyramids and stories and legends.

 

[RickG]

There is evidence of a flood. It's all over the world. There is evidence that water covered the entire earth. Of course, because of the scientific column, scientists misinterpret the evidence. But it's still there.

Are you saying the geologic column is evidence of a global flood?

 

[Saucy]

No I'm saying the geologic column doesn't exist. Scientists use it to 'prove' that fossils are old. They find a layer and assume the age of that layer by the fossils in that layer. But the only way you get a fossils is if the animal has been laid down by water. Otherwise, animals get eaten, bones are scattered, turn to dust, etc. The fact that you have perfectly preserved skeletons and remains, some with DNA and tissue STILL in it, proves a cataclysmic even in the not too distant past.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yah, I believe we all learned that the world started october 23, 4004 b.c. according to a study of the genealogies in Genesis done by Bishop Ussher. This seems to be disputable, but never mind. I would like a discussion, where/when does real evidence point that the flood was. I can begin myself with this contribution: Evidence Noah's biblical flood happened, says Robert Ballard that points to a flood in the Black sea region around 5000 B.C.
Looking forward to some interesting input. Stretch your googles .....And please, if you want to comment that there was no flood, just dont comment in this thread.

God has done some very unusual things with water, changed it wine, has it
gushing from rocks, calmed the sea, walked on it, and more. Perhaps the
flood that drowned all the rest of humanity and the animals was not normal
water. Perhaps all that died in the flood did not suffer a natural drowning
death. And perhaps this unusual water coming from underground reservoirs
that had been stored there from the time of creation did not leave a
"natural" imprint on the globe. If it had, it would eliminate the need for
faith. And God seems very fond of the idea that we have faith.

If we accept that this was not a natural storm, we should be able to
consider the idea that it wasn't "natural" water.

 

[RickG]

No I'm saying the geologic column doesn't exist. Scientists use it to 'prove' that fossils are old.

You have a misunderstanding of what the geologic column actually is.

They find a layer and assume the age of that layer by the fossils in that layer.

No they do not. Geologic strata is dated by radiometric dating of the strata, not the fossils. That is called absolute dating. What you are incorrectly referring to is relative dating. In relative dating index fossil are used to identify a specific period of geologic time, which generally spans quite a few million years because those fossils are found only in a specific range of time.

But the only way you get a fossils is if the animal has been laid down by water. Otherwise, animals get eaten, bones are scattered, turn to dust, etc.

No, it only requires rapid burial caused generally by isolated short-lived catastrophic events, fluvial or eolian. And you still have not addressed the main question. If by a flood, why don't we find fossils of all life forms in all layers of the geologic column supposedly by creation science said to have been laid down by said global flood?

 

[Saucy]

Because the geologic column is a concept. There have been strange things found in different 'layers'. It's not completely uniform. When they find a fossil where it 'doesn't belong', they just change the history of that fossil.

Fossil ranges have also been extended downward. For instance, vertebrates (animals with backbones such as fish and reptiles) have been pushed back into the Cambrian7,8 where 50% to possibly as high as 85% of all the phyla (i.e. the major types of animal designs) originated “suddenly” in what has been graphically called the Cambrian Big Bang.9 Sharks have been pushed back 25 million years into the Upper Ordovician.7 Vascular plants (i.e. land plants) have also been pushed back 25 million years into the Lower Silurian.7 Based on tracks of a lobster-sized, centipede-like creature, arthropods invaded the land 40 million years earlier (Upper Cambrian) than previously thought.10,11 The discovery of an apparent winged insect has pushed back the origin of winged insects and flight by more than 80 million years into the Lower Silurian. That means the origin of the supposed first land plants, which insects depend on, has to be pushed back even earlier into the Ordovician.12,13

http://creation.com/fossils-wrong-place

 

[lasthero]

The fact that you have perfectly preserved skeletons and remains, some with DNA and tissue STILL in it, proves a cataclysmic even in the not too distant past.

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it's my understanding that most fossils are NOT perfectly preserved - most of the time they're incomplete and missing pieces, and have to be reconstructed. It's also not uncommon to find evidence of predation on them - bites, things like that, indications that they've been gnawed on after death.

I'm not aware of any fossil that's ever been found with DNA, though. And fossils with tissue in them are exceedingly rare, and only happen in very specific circumstances.

Edit: actually, I do recall some Neaderthal fossils with DNA in them. As I recall, the half life of DNA is 521 years. If DNA ever been found in something that should be millions of years old, that would be a conundrum.

 

[Ben West]

Is that a GAP theory explanation?

No, the GAP theory says that there was an enormous amount of time between Genesis 1:1 and Gen 1:2. The Gap theory is UnScriptural and cannot be supported. Amen?