Black People Should Stop Expecting White America To 'Wake Up' To Racism

[TheBarrd]

Or they just can't help but destroy everything and continue living in poverty.

That does seem to be the problem.
You can't cry "racism" out of one side of your mouth, while you're busy destroying everything the "racists" try to do for you.

 

[TheBarrd]

My post speaks for itself.

I don't post to agree or disagree with people, I base my opinions on my observations of the available evidence.

Forgive me.
I was just a bit surprised to find you on the same side of the fence as me. I don't expect that it will happen very often...

 

[bhsmte]

Forgive me.
I was just a bit surprised to find you on the same side of the fence as me. I don't expect that it will happen very often...

If it happens it happens and when it does, it won't be because I have a desire to agree or disagree with any group, it will be because that is my observation, based on the evidence.

 

[pakicetus]

The idea that they need special opportunities tailored just for them is totally ridiculous...

Nobody is actually suggesting they do. Well, almost nobody. Can you find anyone in this thread who's said that?

they have full access to the same opportunities as anyone else.

No they don't! I posted 96 studies measuring racism and discrimination in many different contexts using many different methods.

Of course, even if blacks weren't discriminated against at all, they'd still have worse opportunities on average because they're more likely to be born poor.

We have black doctors, for instance, who have struggled from poverty to success, just as we have poor white children who have dropped out of high school to go to work.

I'd like to see someone refute my counter-argument: There were successful black people during segregation. There were successful black people in the 19th century. But that doesn't mean they had equal opportunity then.

 

[Avid]

Stop making excuses for your selves.

What excuses are you seeing? What is being said, and what is it being used to excuse?

I'm guessing you disagree with Dr. Thomas Sowell, as well...

 

[pakicetus]

The road of the politically correct usually doesn't lead anywhere good.

politically-correct (pəˌlidək(ə)lē kəˈrekt) adj. A buzzword with an extremely nebulous meaning, used to heuristically categorize other views as a shortcut through critical thinking.

 

[TheBarrd]

Nobody is actually suggesting they do. Well, almost nobody. Can you find anyone in this thread who's said that?

Did you look at the article the OP posted?

No they don't! I posted 96 studies measuring racism and discrimination in many different contexts using many different methods.

And I'm sure you had a lot of fun.
However, you do know that it is illegal everywhere to discriminate against someone because he/she is a different race?
Even here, in Alabama, we'd have to sell him a cake...

Of course, even if blacks weren't discriminated against at all, they'd still have worse opportunities on average because they're more likely to be born poor.

Do you honestly think that there are no poor white people?

I'd like to see someone refute my counter-argument: There were successful black people during segregation. There were successful black people in the 19th century. But that doesn't mean they had equal opportunity then.

So, they were doing better before the Civil Rights Act?
Hmmm....
I never looked at it that way before...

 

[brewmama]

You cannot spell. If I was brewmama, I'd think you were black.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

 

[TheBarrd]

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

I'm not sure, but I think one of us was just insulted...

 

[pakicetus]

Did you look at the article the OP posted?

Yup, I read the whole thing. The author never said blacks need special opportunities, though he does mention unnamed people who want reparations for slavery or "housing discrimination." Not sure if I would call those things "special opportunities," since (unless you take them too far) they'd just correct special opportunities non-blacks already get relative to blacks. If I have two children named Emily and Jamal, and I give Emily way more food than Jamal, then once I recognize the inequity, I take some of her food to give it to him, you might say I'm giving him a "special favor." And maybe that's true--but only in a trivial way.

However, you do know that it is illegal everywhere to discriminate against someone because he/she is a different race?

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. My dad admits he discriminated against a black woman in the 1980s. You know what happened to him? Nothing.

When I say discrimination is common and severe, I'm not just guessing. If you send out resumes that are otherwise identical, the ones with white-sounding names get 50% more responses than ones with black-sounding names. (I mentioned that before, but the only counterargument I got was "that's not discrimination.") I especially like that study, because it's so simple and hard to screw up. Here's another study which expanded and replicated it. And another one, in which white job-seekers just released from prison got more responses than blacks without criminal records (all else being equal).

Do you honestly think that there are no poor white people?

No. Plenty of white people are born into poverty, and they're disadvantaged too. It just happens more often to black people, partly because of past and present discrimination.

So, they were doing better before the Civil Rights Act?

I didn't say that. I said if one successful black guy proves blacks have equal opportunity, they must've had equal opportunity during segregation too.

 

[TheBarrd]

Yup, I read the whole thing. The author never said blacks need special opportunities, though he does mention unnamed people who want reparations for slavery or "housing discrimination." Not sure if I would call those things "special opportunities," since (unless you take them too far) they'd just correct special opportunities non-blacks already get relative to blacks. If I have two children named Emily and Jamal, and I give Emily way more food than Jamal, then once I recognize the inequity, I take some of her food to give it to him, you might say I'm giving him a "special favor." And maybe that's true--but only in a trivial way.

Reparations for slavery? Now, why should I make any reparations for slavery? I have never owned a slave.

And did it occur to you that, by taking Emily's food you are discriminating against Emily?

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. My dad admits he discriminated against a black woman in the 1980s. You know what happened to him? Nothing.

So, what is needed, then, is better law enforcement on this issue.

When I say discrimination is common and severe, I'm not just guessing. If you send out resumes that are otherwise identical, the ones with white-sounding names get 50% more responses than ones with black-sounding names. (I mentioned that before, but the only counterargument I got was "that's not discrimination.") I especially like that study, because it's so simple and hard to screw up. Here's another study which expanded and replicated it. And another one, in which white job-seekers just released from prison got more responses than blacks without criminal records (all else being equal).

So, it's all in the name, then? A black guy named John would have the same opportunities as a white guy named John?

No. Plenty of white people are born into poverty, and they're disadvantaged too. It just happens more often to black people, partly because of past and present discrimination.

Your compassion for poor white kids who don't get the same opportunities as their more wealthy brothers and sisters seems to be well under control.
However, the issue seems to be not so much about black or white....rather it is who's got the green...

I didn't say that. I said if one successful black guy proves blacks have equal opportunity, they must've had equal opportunity during segregation too.

There are more than "one successful black guy". It takes determination and hard work, but a black man or woman can be successful in America. College degrees are not handed out to anyone...they must be earned. If a black man could do it during segregation, there is no excuse at all why a black man can't do it now that he has been given equal rights.

 

[revanneosl]

politically-correct (pəˌlidək(ə)lē kəˈrekt) adj. A buzzword with an extremely nebulous meaning, used to heuristically categorize other views as a shortcut through critical thinking.

I carefully observed the use of the phrase "politically correct" over the course of several years, occasionally asking users to restate their thoughts using other words, in an attempt to hone in on a definition.

What I found was that 95% of the time, "politically correct" is a euphemism meaning "I resent being made to feel guilty for being a bigot."

 

[pakicetus]

Reparations for slavery? Now, why should I make any reparations for slavery? I have never owned a slave.

That's true. Reparations for slavery is a dumb idea (which is probably why only like 10% of Americans support it). After all, whites aren't responsible for anything that happened before they were born, and helping today's blacks won't do anything to help slaves who are long dead. I was really thinking of making up for the effects of slavery on the current population, which is much much different. (I don't support a program designed specifically for that, though. We should just combat unequal opportunity--which is actually measurable--without worrying about how much slavery contributes to it, which is a purely historical question and isn't measurable anyway.)

And did it occur to you that, by taking Emily's food you are discriminating against Emily?

In my metaphor the food represents opportunity (not sure if that was clear).

So, it's all in the name, then? A black guy named John would have the same opportunities as a white guy named John?

Only if someone who dismisses resumes for having black names is gonna be fair to a black guy named John once he shows up for a job interview. Which empirically isn't the case.

There are more than "one successful black guy". It takes determination and hard work, but a black man or woman can be successful in America.

1. I notice you've switched from "there's equal opportunity" to "success is possible," which is a much different claim. Even if all black people can succeed, they shouldn't have such bad opportunities to do it. (Sometimes people say bad opportunities don't matter because you can just overcome them, so I ask them "Would it be OK to lower whites' opportunities so they're as disadvantaged as blacks?" or "Would you rather send your kid to a good school or a bad one?")
2. Successful black people tend to be luckier than unsuccessful blacks (statistically, that has to be true), so success could actually be unachievable for some blacks who aren't as lucky. I know white people who did everything right and are still poor, like my mom. She's a workaholic lawyer who got straight A's throughout school and scored over 1500 (out of 1600) on the SAT.

College degrees are not handed out to anyone...they must be earned.

Even if you get one, it's no guarantee of success. Blacks who graduated from elite universities get fewer call backs than whites from middling universities, and for lower-paying jobs. White high school dropouts are wealthier than blacks with college degrees.

 

[TheBarrd]

That's true. Reparations for slavery is a dumb idea (which is probably why only like 10% of Americans support it). After all, whites aren't responsible for anything that happened before they were born, and helping today's blacks won't do anything to help slaves who are long dead. I was really thinking of making up for the effects of slavery on the current population, which is much much different. (I don't support a program designed specifically for that, though. We should just combat unequal opportunity--which is actually measurable--without worrying about how much slavery contributes to it, which is a purely historical question and isn't measurable anyway.)

So, we're agreed on that much, anyway. I don't owe anyone forty acres and a mule. Which is just as well, since I don't own forty acres or a mule...

In my metaphor the food represents opportunity (not sure if that was clear).

I understood the metaphor. If you take rights from Emily in order to give them to Jamal, you have discriminated against Emily. Rather, leave Emily's plate alone, and just add more to Jamal's...that way both kids have the same.

Only if someone who dismisses resumes for having black names is gonna be fair to a black guy named John once he shows up for a job interview. Which empirically isn't the case.

So, it isn't about names.
Isn't illegal to discriminate based on such issues??

1. I notice you've switched from "there's equal opportunity" to "success is possible," which is a much different claim. Even if all black people can succeed, they shouldn't have such bad opportunities to do it. (Sometimes people say bad opportunities don't matter because you can just overcome them, so I ask them "Would it be OK to lower whites' opportunities so they're as disadvantaged as blacks?" or "Would you rather send your kid to a good school or a bad one?")

You misunderstand. They have exactly the same access to higher education as whites. (See the Civil Rights Act of 1965.) Success takes hard work and determination no matter what color you are...it isn't handed to anyone.

2. Successful black people tend to be luckier than unsuccessful blacks (statistically, that has to be true), so success could actually be unachievable for some blacks who aren't as lucky. I know white people who did everything right and are still poor, like my mom. She's a workaholic lawyer who got straight A's throughout school.

Lady Luck doesn't discriminate.

Even if you get one, it's no guarantee of success. Blacks who graduated from elite universities get

fewer call backs than whites from middling universities, and for lower-paying jobs. White high school dropouts are wealthier than blacks with college degrees.

Again, your words seem to indicate that you think white=wealthy. Not true.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What excuses are you seeing? What is being said, and what is it being used to excuse?

I'm guessing you disagree with Dr. Thomas Sowell, as well...

I don't have audio on my computer right now, so I can't listen to the video, but IME, Dr Sowell likes to gloss over or otherwise twist things that don't fit his narrative. He's smart, but he's not completely honest. His book Basic Economics is a case study in selective interpretation. It was so bad, I had to stop reading it. I actually felt kind of insulted as a reader.

 

[trunks2k]

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. My dad admits he discriminated against a black woman in the 1980s. You know what happened to him? Nothing.

Yeah, the idea that discrimination doesn't happen because certain forms of discrimination is illegal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's important to recognize that discrimination can happen even without the person doing it being (fully) conscious of it. The classic example is walking down the street and being more wary of a black teen than you would if the person had been white. I admit to falling victim to it, I don't consciously do it, it just happens, but I try to recognize it and override it.

No. Plenty of white people are born into poverty, and they're disadvantaged too. It just happens more often to black people, partly because of past and present discrimination.

I didn't say that. I said if one successful black guy proves blacks have equal opportunity, they must've had equal opportunity during segregation too.

I personally prefer the video game mode analogy. Being a white, straight male is, all other things being equal, like having the game on "easy" mode. Sure, you may still stink at the game and lose, but you have an easier setting than the person who stinks at it and has it on "hard" mode. Likewise, the person who has it on "hard" mode may be excellent at the game and beat it easily.

 

[Avid]

Discrimination happens when you choose the name-brand can of tomatoes instead of the much cheaper store-brand, simply because you like that better...

 

[Avid]

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

Baffling, is it not???

 

[brewmama]

Discrimination happens when you choose the name-brand can of tomatoes instead of the much cheaper store-brand, simply because you like that better...

Bigot!

 

[brewmama]

Yeah, the idea that discrimination doesn't happen because certain forms of discrimination is illegal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's important to recognize that discrimination can happen even without the person doing it being (fully) conscious of it. The classic example is walking down the street and being more wary of a black teen than you would if the person had been white. I admit to falling victim to it, I don't consciously do it, it just happens, but I try to recognize it and override it.

Really? Interesting then that even black men have that reaction. I guess that makes them racist bigots too?

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1639

https://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cj6e/ch03_you_decide_robbery_racist.htm