Being Messianic in the Christian Churches

[visionary]

Come out of her my people.

 

[Meowzltov]

Come out of her my people.

Right on cue, Vis.

 

[ContraMundum]

Why is it that people always throw the "Come out of Her my people" at a church they don't like as if their interpretation of that verse is infallibly correct? Plus, it's usually some American sect or cult invented by some half-baked personality with an aversion to authority outside of their inflated opinions. Makes me wonder who is claiming the most authority? Will the real infallible teacher please stand up?

"Come out of Her my people....and join my sect run by one or two men with no education and a King James Bible" Great idea?

 

[Meowzltov]

Why is it that people always throw the "Come out of Her my people" at a church they don't like as if their interpretation of that verse is infallibly correct? Plus, it's usually some American sect or cult invented by some half-baked personality with an aversion to authority outside of their inflated opinions. Makes me wonder who is claiming the most authority? Will the real infallible teacher please stand up?

"Come out of Her my people....and join my sect run by one or two men with no education and a King James Bible" Great idea?

Saying "Come out of her" just doesn't accomplish what they want -- it doesn't make me want to come out of Catholicism. All it does is make me think they are uneducated about Catholicism.

 

[ContraMundum]

Saying "Come out of her" just doesn't accomplish what they want -- it doesn't make me want to come out of Catholicism. All it does is make me think they are uneducated about Catholicism.

Yeah, it's a totally subjective verse. The early Christians (including the Roman Christians) identified it with the world powers. So, a Roman Catholic would in those times call people out of the world system with that verse in mind. Since then, every sect has referred to that verse to call people out of whoever they didn't agree with. Idiotic, IMHO. In fact, I'd even say it's getting boring and when people throw that verse around I switch off because I agree with the ancients anyway.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

I appreciate that you were honest and open about your faith. Most people I have dealt with in the past never done such a thing ...so it is obvious to me that your motives are not in the intrest of destroying anying intentionally, but you really have to understand that most of us came out of that stuff, and we all were and are still close to friends and family and those who we feel are deceived by such doctrines.

That is why some (like myself) often harp on such subjects ...also if you read all the old English works I read that are witten around the 1700's warning america of what would happen to them if they allowed Romanist to get a foothold on its systems while living in the fruits of its fruition ...well, you may come off slightly intolerant of it as well.

Also Im very much into the Primitive Christian beliefs like that of William Whiston and into Hebrew Roots and reconciling the scripture of the NT with the OT where no contradiction exist. This position cant help but be at enmity with those in Romanist organizations.

But aside from myself ...these are common topics in this form, and you have to understand many moderators have a Romanist bias and drool over the opportunity to thrash what are seemingly heretics in their eyes, because it makes them feel warm and goody, goody inside.

So if you complain about such commments you already have to assume those post are going to get deleted and censored ...therefore such a stance is creating a censorship in this forum that should not exist. If you think those people are too "radical" to you, just simply argue with them without getting others involved.

Ive complained only once in CF since I been here and it was only to sarcasticly mock, and poke at the moderators hypocrisy. If people are rude, or vulgar, disgusting in perversions ...yes, I would, but I have yet to run into that here.

Anyways, thanks for being open. I'll probably get the boot here soon anyways, but Im glad you were nice about it all.

 

[visionary]

Saying "Come out of her" just doesn't accomplish what they want -- it doesn't make me want to come out of Catholicism. All it does is make me think they are uneducated about Catholicism.

Strange.... I stated that verse... allowed the Holy Spirit to impress upon the conscience.. and those who get defensive... are in a spiritual battle .. not with me.. but the verse.

 

[Meowzltov]

Strange.... I stated that verse... allowed the Holy Spirit to impress upon the conscience.. and those who get defensive... are in a spiritual battle .. not with me.. but the verse.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

[ContraMundum]

I appreciate that you were honest and open about your faith. Most people I have dealt with in the past never done such a thing ...so it is obvious to me that your motives are not in the intrest of destroying anying intentionally, but you really have to understand that most of us came out of that stuff, and we all were and are still close to friends and family and those who we feel are deceived by such doctrines.

You, in turn, need to realize that there are observant Jewish Christians in the Churches. You need to accept that most of the Jewish people who become followers of Yeshua take that path as well. You might also consider that some of the most respected MJ posters on this forum in that past became RC and even EO! They see the MJ movement as lacking something important.

Once you realize that, maybe you can stop beating them up?

That is why some (like myself) often harp on such subjects ...also if you read all the old English works I read that are witten around the 1700's warning america of what would happen to them if they allowed Romanist to get a foothold on its systems while living in the fruits of its fruition ...well, you may come off slightly intolerant of it as well.

Yeah, all nice etc. But it's amazing how much those people got it wrong, how carnal their observations and aspirations were too.

Rome hasn't destroyed America, sin has.

But aside from myself ...these are common topics in this form, and you have to understand many moderators have a Romanist bias and drool over the opportunity to thrash what are seemingly heretics in their eyes, because it makes them feel warm and goody, goody inside.

That is a slanderous accusation against the mods and doesn't gel with the facts either. Having been a mod and knowing a lot of the mods here I can tell you that they are not that crooked.

So if you complain about such commments you already have to assume those post are going to get deleted and censored ...therefore such a stance is creating a censorship in this forum that should not exist.

EVERYONE gets censored, edited, banned or whatever. Not just you or the "true believers" like you. You have to learn to live within the rules.

Ive complained only once in CF since I been here and it was only to sarcasticly mock, and poke at the moderators hypocrisy.

OK...so you deliberately broke the rules and now you have hurt feelings over it??? Am I reading this right?

 

[visionary]

You, in turn, need to realize that there are observant Jewish Christians in the Churches. You need to accept that most of the Jewish people who become followers of Yeshua take that path as well. You might also consider that some of the most respected MJ posters on this forum in that past became RC and even EO! They see the MJ movement as lacking something important.

Once you realize that, maybe you can stop beating them up?

Yeah, all nice etc. But it's amazing how much those people got it wrong, how carnal their observations and aspirations were too.

Rome hasn't destroyed America, sin has.

That is a slanderous accusation against the mods and doesn't gel with the facts either. Having been a mod and knowing a lot of the mods here I can tell you that they are not that crooked.

EVERYONE gets censored, edited, banned or whatever. Not just you or the "true believers" like you. You have to learn to live within the rules.

OK...so you deliberately broke the rules and now you have hurt feelings over it??? Am I reading this right?

What he is saying is true. Understanding that each believer is walking, some started earlier, some later, some are slow walkers, and some are blindly holding the skirts in front of them praying that they know where they are going. When taking this into consideration, individual attention to where they are spiritually, when helping them open up their eyes to see, ears to hear, and the mind to understand.
It is not wrong to point out organizational flaws that misdirect the Lord's children who are like sheep going astray. What is difficult is those who are clinging to the crutches of their faith, have not yet the ability to walk on their own, and to take away the crutch will only cause them to fall. It takes a lot of prayer and more prayer. The cry in the wilderness is "come out of her my people"... They want to, they just don't know how, who, what, where, when...including us. All we can do is to keep point to our God of Israel, our Jewish Messiah, from whom we receive our eye salve.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

You, in turn, need to realize that there are observant Jewish Christians in the Churches. You need to accept that most of the Jewish people who become followers of Yeshua take that path as well. You might also consider that some of the most respected MJ posters on this forum in that past became RC and even EO! They see the MJ movement as lacking something important.

Once you realize that, maybe you can stop beating them up?



Yeah, all nice etc. But it's amazing how much those people got it wrong, how carnal their observations and aspirations were too.

Rome hasn't destroyed America, sin has.



That is a slanderous accusation against the mods and doesn't gel with the facts either. Having been a mod and knowing a lot of the mods here I can tell you that they are not that crooked.



EVERYONE gets censored, edited, banned or whatever. Not just you or the "true believers" like you. You have to learn to live within the rules.



OK...so you deliberately broke the rules and now you have hurt feelings over it??? Am I reading this right?

...lol, this coming from one of the biggest instigators in this forum, as you are always deposing anything sounding too protestant or common within mainstream Messianic circles of discussion. You act like my doctrines are formulated in a lab or something alien to MJ ...but walk into any MJ congregation in the US and you can find such topics being discussed or used to witness in the majority of them.

Just look at youtube, or the two mainstream MJ radio stations ...these things are discussed, condemned, and debated ccontinually ...I dont have to sit here and pretend, because they are.

No, you attempt to create your own narratives of MJ doctrine according to your own bias.

As for your "rules" soap box ...the "rules" are blatantly wrong, and are selectively used to censor people who dont agree with the last 1500 years of "christian" doctrine.

In times past many stated the "rules" of YHVH's Words while those in power created arbitrary laws declaring that it is wrong to say the "rules" of YHVH. So while the holy martyrs were declaring the lawlessness and hypocrisy of the lawless, and drawing a standard among the assembly, evil tyrants from all dung heaps of the world started declairing "the rules, the rules" at them (the saints) claming the lawful people of Yah as lawless to the state.

...seemed like justifiable mass murder in their wretched minds.

Another thing people are forgetting to understand or overlook is the differance of a system of The Assembly and the systems of Evangelism. In todays modern "assemblies" there is no distinction made.

The assembly should be open in their doctrines, as they fellowship together. There is no room for sensitivity to lawlessness in the assembly ...their praise is to be holy.

Evangelism is for the sick, blind, and lame and those evangelizing, they are not to be single preachers for pay, but commissioned by the judges of the assembly to witness by twos OUTSIDE the gathering place of the assembly.

What people would rather have us do is make no distinctions from holy or profane ...this should not be so. The whole world is a standardlesd ecuminical system of tyrant worship, not the church from within whos only King is Messiah as they are estranged from the nations of the world.

No the real problem is that a standard has been raised and laid down by Messiah and Torah, and people complain who hate that standard of the people who make mention of those standards.

 

[janwoG]

With regard to Open Heart. Since he sanctifies the Sabbath and is Torah observant, he testifies that he is Messianic. What he does with RC concerns his own conscience and we have to respect our Catholic Messianic brother.

 

[ContraMundum]

...lol, this coming from one of the biggest instigators in this forum, as you are always deposing anything sounding too protestant or common within mainstream Messianic circles of discussion.

Jeff, every single thing you say about me I ignore. Why? You're a newbie. You seriously don't know much at all about me. I didn't even read this post past this paragraph. You need to earn your street cred before you start on people who have been here for years. Obviously the rules here just don't suit your style. Sorry for you.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

How can I educate people on being able to distinguish the bias here? I guess by giving examples.

If no censorship is made in the promotion, or solicitation of doctrines of faith, politic, and social or cultural lifestyles, but censorship is demanded of those who oppose those doctrines ...then you will notice the hypocritical standard laid out.

Just like in countries where homosexuality is allowed to be promoted freely everywhere, while the censorship is only placed on thise opposed to it.

One can promote homosexuality as they please with truth or lies, but when someone states the errors, and the truths of its self destructive ways then they are censored and condemned as "bigoted" by the lawless authorities.

Same thing with this issue ...one can openly promote Catholic, or even individual Protestant sectarianism which are a contrast to MJ and are allowed to without censorship, but people who are opposed to the doctrines or institutions are censored and denouned as "bigot" or whatever.

This type of interaction is completely one sided and hypocritical. Allowing only one party to state the "facts" of their position while those who are in opposition are not allowed to express or criticize those doctrines.

This is not the way to have an open ended free dialogue with anyone.

She should be able to promote her faith as she sees fit, however everyone should also be free to openly disagree with it, or even openly disagree with those who disagree. That is what a true "forum" should look like.

 

[ContraMundum]

How can I educate people on being able to distinguish the bias here? I guess by giving examples.

Jeff the "learner"? How about Jeff the lecturer?

Jeff, we don't need your "education". The forum has been functioning well for years. Every now and then someone new comes along and has the same complaint- but they always miss the point. It's fine to criticize and analyse. But a) at least get it right (and you haven't to many people's satisfaction) or you will be insulting people (lashon hara!) and that's a no-no and b) don't harass or pick on someone just because you hate their religion, which is disgraceful to witness from a grown man. It's not rocket science. My educated guess is that you've probably been disciplined for one of those things, not for speaking your mind on matters of religion. Quit playing the martyr, because you're not.

Secondly, and this is important: you don't decide what constitutes what gets said in the name of MJism any more than anyone else does- and there's more opinions about that than there are posters! If a person is a Protestant or has Protestant ideas, yet believes that those ideas are compatible with their understanding of Torah observance- then that's ok for them and I'm sure they've thought about it to their own satisfaction. YOU have no right to silence them because they have Protestant ideas. It's not even easy to define what that means in this day and age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The same goes for ideas that to your mind seem too "Catholic" or whatever you imagine it to be. It's just tough luck for you. You HAVE to allow them to live and believe as they do and they have a right to speak about without being bullied and harassed by self-appointed watchdogs.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

Jeff the "learner"? How about Jeff the lecturer?

Jeff, we don't need your "education". The forum has been functioning well for years. Every now and then someone new comes along and has the same complaint- but they always miss the point. It's fine to criticize and analyse. But a) at least get it right (and you haven't to many people's satisfaction) or you will be insulting people (lashon hara!) and that's a no-no and b) don't harass or pick on someone just because you hate their religion, which is disgraceful to witness from a grown man. It's not rocket science. My educated guess is that you've probably been disciplined for one of those things, not for speaking your mind on matters of religion. Quit playing the martyr, because you're not.

Secondly, and this is important: you don't decide what constitutes what gets said in the name of MJism any more than anyone else does- and there's more opinions about that than there are posters! If a person is a Protestant or has Protestant ideas, yet believes that those ideas are compatible with their understanding of Torah observance- then that's ok for them and I'm sure they've thought about it to their own satisfaction. YOU have no right to silence them because they have Protestant ideas. It's not even easy to define what that means in this day and age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The same goes for ideas that to your mind seem too "Catholic" or whatever you imagine it to be. It's just tough luck for you. You HAVE to allow them to live and believe as they do and they have a right to speak about without being bullied and harassed by self-appointed watchdogs.

...lol, you became a member in 2006, I became one in 2007. And as for your other stuff it just exposes further your personal bias as to how you cherry pick things and how you choose to frame both the interpretation along with your answer.

 

[ErezY]

...lol, you became a member in 2006, I became one in 2007. And as for your other stuff it just exposes further your personal bias as to how you cherry pick things and how you choose to frame both the interpretation along with your answer.

I think you did miss his point, again. You've only been posting in the MJ forum since the beginning of the current cycle. (apr/2015). Yet contra has been posting in this forum actively since 2007. If contra is cherry picking, then maybe you are glossing over the facts? It does seem you have a new passion for posting in the MJ forum since your arrival here in 2006.

BTW, everyone expresses their viewpoint from their own perspective (bias). I've learned it's how you react to others positions that define who you are. Not what you say. Yeshua said much, but it was what he did for us that makes it all worth something. He laid down his life for those who treated him with contempt. So one day they may change and repent, turn and do the right things to/for people. His example was one of complete service to others. He lights the way by doing, not merely speaking. If someone disagreed, he didn't follow them and make them feel bad by telling them how wrong they were, he showed them by actions how they were wrong. He walked the good path so as to show us how. He didn't merely say we were biased and fools, he showed us how to change.

Can you show us how to act Godly Jeff? THAT would be worth being taught my friend.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Same thing with this issue ...one can openly promote Catholic, or even individual Protestant sectarianism which are a contrast to MJ and are allowed to without censorship, but people who are opposed to the doctrines or institutions are censored and denouned as "bigot" or whatever.

There is grace enough for everyone, except those who believe Torah and point out a history that even the pope recognizes to be true.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

I think you did miss his point, again. You've only been posting in the MJ forum since the beginning of the current cycle. (apr/2015). Yet contra has been posting in this forum actively since 2007. If contra is cherry picking, then maybe you are glossing over the facts? It does seem you have a new passion for posting in the MJ forum since your arrival here in 2006.

BTW, everyone expresses their viewpoint from their own perspective (bias). I've learned it's how you react to others positions that define who you are. Not what you say. Yeshua said much, but it was what he did for us that makes it all worth something. He laid down his life for those who treated him with contempt. So one day they may change and repent, turn and do the right things to/for people. His example was one of complete service to others. He lights the way by doing, not merely speaking. If someone disagreed, he didn't follow them and make them feel bad by telling them how wrong they were, he showed them by actions how they were wrong. He walked the good path so as to show us how. He didn't merely say we were biased and fools, he showed us how to change.

Can you show us how to act Godly Jeff? THAT would be worth being taught my friend.

Well I agree with you on some levels. Im not eloquent with words, and am a little socially awkward, but nothing I said was a personal attack on the person, but only directed toward the doctrines of the person. The worst thing I have done in analyzing the rhetoric of some was to assume a doctrinal sect about them.

...but how is that any different from those from any other in here? What makes their assumptions on myself any more tolerable than mine toward them?

It goes along with the creed of this forum ...that no one can say anything against Trinitarian doctrine or the counsels of Constantine.

The worst thing you hear out of me is the term "Romanism" or "Romanist" which has been a term used for the last 400 years as defining someone who will not let go of Roman Orthodoxy ...its not an insult, but if it is, shouldnt also calling someone who agrees with some tenants of Arius as a "heretic of Arianism" be so too? I mean there is a whole list of "ism's" and "ist" declaired by Romanist in the same derogatory manner ...but some guy saying things against feminist doctrines, or Romanist doctrines are labeled as wrong and are banned, but its okay for others to do it but with a different list of terms?!?

Its an obvious double standard, and whether Im a new or an old member it does not matter because its wrong. Anything labeled MJ should be open to these topics of discussion.

But no, I have brought forth subjects not having anything to do with directing it at people personally. I brought forth subjects being talked about by things I hear on MJ radio stations, and are brought about by the current MJ mainsteam and have been slandered for it and had my post erased and banned.

I also addressed things into holiness and being Godly too without being harsh with hard words ...and even had those post banned because they were too conservative.

Secondly you dont see the background of these I have had conflict with, before I say anything I already have had several alerts of my post, or comments getting ready to be banned as I am talking with them, and have not even initiated a heated dialogue of debate with them yet.

Once I had a comment banned while complementing someone ...lol, through it may have not been out of ill will but out of habit.

All and all, you will not have to worry about me talking here much longer, so you all can cheer all you like. Im pretty sure Im getting the boot either way. But the main point is I should not have been treated this way in the MJ forum, and my post, topics, and comments should have been weclomed at best and ignored and allowed to the worst.

 

[Meowzltov]

Same thing with this issue ...one can openly promote Catholic, or even individual Protestant sectarianism which are a contrast to MJ and are allowed to without censorship, but people who are opposed to the doctrines or institutions are censored and denouned as "bigot" or whatever.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I spend most of my time in CF in the theology section, and I'm often chatting with people who in a respectful way are opposed to Catholic teaching, and we banter back and forth about it. I also debate with people over observing the law, and no one censors me.

"Flaming" is not a particular opinion, but the way you voice it. I can say, "I really must disagree with you, I just can't see it in the scriptures..." or I can say, "You are a pagan turd." Both comments voice disagreement, but one is flaming and the other is not. It can get really hard not to flame when we want to voice our FEELINGS rather than our ideas. I know. But ultimately feelings is not what it's about. I think CF is a great forum, and the rules actually work to make me a better chatter and a better Christian.