The Confederate Flag

[GoldenBoy89]

They both represent bad ideas from the past and failed states. Essentially their the same in their use today.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The Nazis were never a significant part of this country. Pretty obvious.

The whole, "this group of people is less worthy than my group of people" thing is kinda similar. The CFA did not have access to 20th century weaponry though.

 

[The Cadet]

None of this is relevant. The origins of the war are not what a veterans' monument is commemorating. It's the sacrifice of the men, and it's well-known that preserving slavery was the farthest thing from the minds of the footsoldiers who volunteered on both sides of the war.

And the average Nazi footsoldier did not know about the death camps. So? We don't have states here in Germany celebrating "Third Reich Appreciation Day".

 

[KitKatMatt]

So when you travel to asia you will look down your nose at all the people/signs/buildings with swatikas on them?

Did I say I would?

Did I even say I would look down on people who display Confederate flags?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.

This is the flag of The US at that time. Notice it is not the same as the flag we currently have.

 

[SuperCloud]

That sensationalist claim has been disproved. You can give it a rest now.

My understanding is that DNA tests showed that TJ father children with Sally Hemming.

Anyways... I believe TJ did. He owned slaves. He was no holy man.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Excellent to see this wisdom. Liberal news spinning has only confused the Confederate Flag with racism. The Civil War wasn't begun over slavery. Slavery wasn't even part of the issue until it got politically thrown into the mix two years after the war began. So many negative comments made against the Confederate Flag by so many drifters of the hard blowing wind...

Ok. Forget the racism attached to the flag. How about it's connection to secession, treason and rebellion? That alone would make any flag like the confederate flag illegal in just about every country on earth. Most places don't let you fly the flags of enemy nations... A basic unspoken rule of civics is that you don't fly the flag of a nation that declared war against your country. Especially if that nation purposely chose to separate itself from your nation.

I wouldn't make it illegal to own one. That is just stupid and totalitarian. But I don't think the flag of another country (current or historical) should fly over government buildings. They lost the war, their flags come down. They are lucky no one has ever made it illegal like they have in Germany in regards to the Swastika flag.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'd say that it would be necessary to show that the flag does in fact 'stand for slavery.' Seems pretty obvious to me, yet I notice that you didn't even make an attempt at doing that.

Actually my comparing it to the Nazi flag was my attempt at that. I'd think everyone would think flying the Nazi flag is bad (especially if you are German). The same reason would apply to the Confederate flag.

The Confederate flag represents the Confederate States of America. The main reason for the Confederacy existing was to retain slavery. So that is what the flag stands for.

I never know who has the authority to determine what a symbol stands for.

I don't think one requires an authority to have a reasonable opinion.

The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.

I don't think it does symbolize that. Such actions weren't the main core identity of the US.

I say what matters more is the intent of the flyer.

Of course, the flyer needs to be aware of both symbol's baggage, and be prepared to explain themselves if they fly them.

If someone is genuinely ignorant, then it wouldn't make them racist. But I don't think good intentions make an action okay.

You might called a black person the N word with good intentions... but once you know why it's bad, you should probably stop.

 

[Armoured]

Actually my comparing it to the Nazi flag was my attempt at that. I'd think everyone would think flying the Nazi flag is bad (especially if you are German). The same reason would apply to the Confederate flag.

The Confederate flag is the flag of the Confederate States of America. The main reason for the Confederacy was the retain slavery. So that is what the flag stands for.



I don't think one requires an authority to have a reasonable opinion.



I don't think it does symbolize that. Such actions weren't the main core identity of the US.



If someone is genuinely ignorant, then it wouldn't make them racist. But I don't think good intentions make an action okay.

You might called a black person the N word with good intentions... but once you know why it's bad, you should probably stop.

I'm an Australian. And while I'm not disagreeing with you specifically, you should know that the rest of the world doesn't have the same relationship and understanding of issues like "the N word" or "blackface" as Americans do.

IMHO, the confederate flag and even a NAZI flag aren't directly comparable to calling someone "the N word". One is a direct action towards someone else, the other is making a general statement about one's self.

 

[Paradoxum]

Paradoxum, you're from the UK right? Does anyone there (that is a UK born and raised citizen) fly the American flag? I would kind of see that as the same thing. Well if anyone actually did that, you all seem a little more reasonable than us in a lot of ways.

I doubt anyone flies the US flag from their house. Some probably wear the US flags on clothing though. And no one would think that's bad.

I don't see how that's the same though. The US was against slavery (eventually). The Confederacy was always in favour of slavery, and retaining slavery was a main motivation for it's existence.

As 'Holoman' said, a normal person flying our own flag can be seen as potentially racist, and I'd see strong nationalism as being associated with Nazism.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm an Australian. And while I'm not disagreeing with you specifically, you should know that the rest of the world doesn't have the same relationship and understanding of issues like "the N word" or "blackface" as Americans do.

I agree. If you're disagreeing with me, I don't understand how.

IMHO, the confederate flag and even a NAZI flag aren't directly comparable to calling someone "the N word". One is a direct action towards someone else, the other is making a general statement about one's self.

I agree they aren't exactly the same. I wouldn't say they are completely different either.

Did you say in another post that you own a Confederate flag? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, unless you are flying it as if you support the flag.

Also, I don't think liking the flag, or thinking the confederates fought a good war, justifies flying the flag. That wouldn't justify use of the Nazi flag.

 

[Tina W]

No matter how anyone wants to try to sugar coat it or rationalize it or compare it to other things, the confederate flag represents, racism, slavery, wanting to be apart from America, and pride for a slavery way of life. Period. There's no reason or need to fly that flag in this day and age.

 

[Paradoxum]

No doubt the cultural imperialist in the thread will tell us how these people are evil horrible racist.

Because you know, if a symbol means something to an American it's gotta mean that everywhere.

I don't think they are racist, but what a Nazi uniform means isn't a completely subjective thing. They actually killed people, and racism was a core part of the ideology.

I don't think there's anything wrong with 'cultural imperialism' if the culture is justified. It's only a problem if it's unjustified.

IIRC, it's a themed wedding. In Asia, Nazis are just seen as "cool baddies" by many people, much like how we view pirates here in the West. The intent is roughly as racist as a themed Star Wars wedding here.

I'm not sure Japan should really get a pass... they were kinda involved... they should feel bad for being on that side.

By the way, I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing as a Nazi for fancy dress (including in the West), but I think that should come with an acknowledgment that the Nazi's weren't just 'cool baddies'.

I'd say it's no quite so okay to do it at a wedding, but whatever.

 

[Paradoxum]

I think it's the left becoming ever more radical and hysterical as they push for more and more government totalitarianism. It will only end when the oppression becomes so burdensome and persecutory even to those on the left, that a movement grows large enough to throw off the yoke. I hope that happens before the left turns the Bill of Rights into a roll of toilet paper.

I'd say the left is generally in favour of greater liberty, whereas the right tends to be oppressive and authoritarian.

Why do you think the left is becoming more totalitarian?

 

[Tina W]

I already agreed anyone flying it should be aware of the baggage and prepared to explain themselves. But if someone flies it for precisely that reason (I don't fly one, but own several, for, I contend, this exact reason) and they tell you that reason, and generally present themselves as being supportive of racial equality and justice at law, is it a racist symbol?

Yeah it's still a racist symbol even if the person flying it claims they are not racist. It's like an atheist having crucifixes and crosses in his yard and saying "to me it doesn't represent God and Christianity". They are still symbols of Christianity even if it doesn't seem that way to you. It doesn't make sense, it's illogical to fly symbols of something if you don't believe in or agree with what those symbols represent. It makes a person look crazy. An atheist would look crazy having crosses and crucifixes in their yard yet saying they are atheist and don't believe in Christianity and those symbols don't mean Christianity to them. You would think deep down that atheist really believes in God and is lying to himself.... And even you claim it doesn't represent that to you, still to most people who see crosses and crucifixes, it represents God or Christianity just like no matter how much you try to say that confederate rag doesn't mean the same to you, to most people that's what it represents.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Yeah it's still a racist symbol even if the person flying it claims they are not racist. It's like an atheist having crucifixes and crosses in his yard and saying "to me it doesn't represent God and Christianity". They are still symbols of Christianity even if it doesn't seem that way to you. It doesn't make sense, it's illogical to fly symbols of something if you don't believe in or agree with what those symbols represent. It makes a person look crazy. An atheist would look crazy having crosses and crucifixes in their yard yet saying they are atheist and don't believe in Christianity and those symbols don't mean Christianity to them. You would think deep down that atheist really believes in God and is lying to himself.... And even you claim it doesn't represent that to you, still to most people who see crosses and crucifixes, it represents God or Christianity just like no matter how much you try to say that confederate rag doesn't mean the same to you, to most people that's what it represents.

Do you know what a cross means to a Muslim? It is offensive. Should I get rid of any crosses I have because it offends them?

Many people that have confederate flags are not racist.

To the pure all things are pure.

You probably have something that offends me. Should you get rid of it?

Are you living your life based on other's dictates? I hope you are not a hypocrite because that is what you are asking everyone here. You are saying if anyone has a symbol that offends others, then get rid of it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here are some facts about the civil war, much was not taught in history class but more and more are becoming aware today. much of this I have read but most I learned from 2nd hand accounts, old men that were eye witnesses to what really happened in those days.


1) - slavery was not an issue, it was part of it but not why the war was fought. the majority of southerners did not even own slaves. Most of them were small farmers who worked their farms with their families. do you really think the average farmer or poor working man is going to go to war, risk his life, make his wife a widow and kids fatherless just so a rich plantation owner can keep his right to have slaves

Slavery was an issue, indeed slavery was central to the issue. The "right" which the slave-holding states were whining about was the "right" to enslave and own human persons purely on the basis of skin color. Arguing, as many try to do, that it was "about State's rights" is at best disingenuous and at worst an attempt at distraction. Here is what is written in South Carolina's declaration of succession:

"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation." - Source

The slave-holding states were upset because the northern states passed legislation that did not comply with Article IV of the Constitution, specifically this:

"No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due" - Article IV, Section 2.3

This was eventually superseded by the Thirteenth Amendment.

The northern states passed legislation and refused to comply with this by returning fugitive slaves.

From a dispassionate view I suppose we could argue that South Carolina had a point; on the other hand we're talking about people owning people.

Sure enough once the rich slave-owning elites had managed to declare their succession and drive the nation into a civil war, the little people were left to fight for home and hearth. I have no doubt that many who fought for the Confederacy were simply fighting for their home; but these were men dragged into a conflict by the rich and powerful of the south--who generally owned slaves and for which reason they were willing to go to war.

2) the south was being bled dry by economic restrictions from the union., and they felt like they were losing their rights and freedoms as the federal government was oppressing their state rights. this was the big deal that pushed the south over the edge

Indeed, they wanted their slaves and the rest of the country wasn't playing by their rules. So much like a rotten child, they decided to throw one of the world's largest temper tantrums.

There is a reason why so many refer to it as The War of Northern Aggression

Yes, that reason has a name: it's called a failure to comprehend history.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[KitKatMatt]

I'm an Australian

Have you ever been to America, specifically the South?

Because of the removal of the country flags, I didn't know you were from Australia.

Let me put my own location into perspective: I'm from the South. In fact, I'm from an area where the KKK is still active. Not too many years ago, a nearby town made national news after the horrible murder of a black man (dragged to death behind a truck by white supremacists who offered him a ride). I see innumerable confederate flags daily, along with a fair share of Nazi-styled swastikas (no flags, mostly stickers and visible tattoos). I would say about 30% of the time, I see these two symbols around the same person.

Perhaps my upbringing has made me connect these symbol and ideals more than someone who has not lived in this area. I don't know what your personal experience with these symbols has been, and I would be interested in learning so that maybe we could understand why we feel differently about them.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Would a KKK rally look any less racist if it didn't have any confederate flags?

 

[AmericanChristian91]

I have no doubt that many who fought for the Confederacy were simply fighting for their home; but these were men dragged into a conflict by the rich and powerful of the south--who generally owned slaves and for which reason they were willing to go to war.

Though I think that there were some non-slaveowning whites that did fight for slavery, especially after January 1st, 1863 when the Emancipation Proclamation. Since on that date the Union shifted the war, to not only fighting to preserve the Union, but to free the slaves held in Confederate Territory. It wasn't just slaveowners in the south that promoted slavery/white power, since the belief in white supremacy, held by most whites in the South, was tied to slavery existing.