Saturday and Sunday

[Soyeong]

It was already scripture that the 613 were given to Israel and its converts (who were then Israel) and not to the Gentiles. So they changed nothing.

You were saying that they had the authority to change God's law in regard to changing the day of worship. This would involve countermanding God, which they had no authority to do. In Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19 it says that Gentiles were once alienated from Israel, but and now fellow citizens. Also:

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Gentiles are now included among God's chosen people so laws that God gave for how His chosen people should behave also apply to them.

 

[Soyeong]

It still wouldn't have been on the Sabbath, even if you accept his view. The eucharist would have been observed on the first day of the week.

You're trying to argue that they started a new tradition, but Havdalah service was not something new. The eucharist would have been observed on Passover.

 

[Soyeong]

They were already observing it because of the Judaizers. But the council released them from the requirement.

• Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke

The yoke of the influencers included all their mountain of oral traditions for how to law, which is what they were objecting to.

• Acts 15:19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
• Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood

When employer hires a new employee, they don't start by teaching them up front everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job, but rather they start with the basics with the understanding that they will learn how to do the rest on the job. In the same way, new Gentiles coming to faith would have been unfamiliar with all of the laws in the Torah, so to not to make things too difficult for them, they started with the basics, which Paul excuses in verse 21 by saying that they would continue to learn about how to keep the law every Sabbath in the synagogues.

Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

If you think Gentiles were only supposed to keep those four laws, then that would exclude the teachings of Jesus, as well as other teachings in the NT, but if you say that this is obviously not an exhaustive list and that other laws were included, then I'd agree with you.

 

[SAAN]

It still wouldn't have been on the Sabbath, even if you accept his view. The eucharist would have been observed on the first day of the week.

He is agreeing that they did in fact meet on a Sunday, just not the Sunday morning like we do now.

 

[Meowzltov]

You were saying that they had the authority to change God's law in regard to changing the day of worship

Isn't every day a day of worship? Orthodox Jews worship every day. Catholics say Mass every day.

 

[SAAN]

I do agree we should worship God everyday, but in scriptures, he did set one day apart from the others and made it holy and a day of rest. We kinda do that here in america as many banks, car dealerships and other businesses are closed on Sunday.

In this day and age Im not even really sure if God cares about the whole Saturday vs Sunday debate the way we do as humans. I could be 100% wrong and the Sabbath 100% still matters and we should be keeping it, but one thing ive always wondered, if the Sabbath was so important, why would God even allowed it to be changed by the RCC and not send out a punishment or curse for doing so to the point where they would not have changed it and just left things as is.

 

[Meowzltov]

You're trying to argue that they started a new tradition, but Havdalah service was not something new. The eucharist would have been observed on Passover.

I disagree. "Break bread" is a euphemism for communion. It makes no sense to say they are devoted to Havdalah.

• Acts 2:24 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer
• 1 Corinthians 10:16 When we bless the cup at the Lord's Table, aren't we sharing in the blood of Christ? And when we break the bread, aren't we sharing in the body of Christ?

 

[Soyeong]

Isn't every day a day of worship? Orthodox Jews worship every day. Catholics say Mass every day.

Indeed, but God bless the 7th day and declared it holy, so it is a special day of worship.

 

[Meowzltov]

The yoke of the influencers included all their mountain of oral traditions for how to law, which is what they were objecting to.


When employer hires a new employee, they don't start by teaching them up front everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job, but rather they start with the basics with the understanding that they will learn how to do the rest on the job. In the same way, new Gentiles coming to faith would have been unfamiliar with all of the laws in the Torah, so to not to make things too difficult for them, they started with the basics, which Paul excuses in verse 21 by saying that they would continue to learn about how to keep the law every Sabbath in the synagogues.



If you think Gentiles were only supposed to keep those four laws, then that would exclude the teachings of Jesus, as well as other teachings in the NT, but if you say that this is obviously not an exhaustive list and that other laws were included, then I'd agree with you.

You are inserting information into the text that simply isn't there.

 

[Meowzltov]

He is agreeing that they did in fact meet on a Sunday, just not the Sunday morning like we do now.

That view is acceptable to me. Like I said before, our first Sunday Mass is actually a Saturday vigil Mass. In terms of observing any Mass, the Catholic church begins the day the evening before, just like in Judaism.

 

[Meowzltov]

I do agree we should worship God everyday, but in scriptures, he did set one day apart from the others and made it holy and a day of rest. We kinda do that here in america as many banks, car dealerships and other businesses are closed on Sunday.

Yes, the way to observe the Sabbath is as a day of rest, not as a day of worship per se. The phenomenon of the Sunday blue laws in the USA had more to do with the dominance of Protestant Christianity than Catholicism. My parents were strict sabbath keepers also, but kept it on Sunday -- they were fundamentalists.

 

[Meowzltov]

Indeed, but God bless the 7th day and declared it holy, so it is a special day of worship.

It was never a special day of worship for the Israelites, who offered sacrifices seven days a week. The Pharisees opened synagogues that offered Torah lessons on the Sabbath, but this was never a requirement. Even today, attending synagogue on shabbat is not a requirement for Jews. Shabbat is observed by resting from work.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I pick wednesday, paul said in Rom 14:5, be convinced in your own mind, as he in that verses, did not care about Saturday or Sunday.

Paul was not talking about Sabbath in these vs but fasting. There was a custom that the early Christians Fasted on Wednesday (the day of betray) and Friday (the day of crucifixion) that is what he addressing, Not Sabbath

 

[Adventist Dissident]

They were already observing it because of the Judaizers. But the council released them from the requirement.

• Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke
• Acts 15:19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
• Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood
• Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

So not only are they released from the 613, but no where in the letter written to them does it specifically mention that they are to keep the Sabbath, and states that these requirements are the only ones.

Acts 15 is not talking doing a way with the Law of Moses, but what additional requirement are going to be placed on the believer so as to not offend their Jewish hosts.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

While im not a Sabbatarian, can you show one verse (IN CONTEXT) where Jesus himself said the Sabbath would be abolished after his death?

Also explain Acts 15:21 when they said the gentile will learn as they go along each Sabbath.
Acts 15:20-21(KJV)
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

you got it right, this does not lessen the mosaic requirement, but add only a few things so as not to offend their Jewish hosts.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

NO is going to post a response to my post and #8?? Any takers??? It's like I am invisible here. Hellooooo anybody home?????

 

[Meowzltov]

Acts 15 is not talking doing a way with the Law of Moses, but what additional requirement are going to be placed on the believer so as to not offend their Jewish hosts.

Follow the arrow back up and read again the scriptures I cited to you. It very much does away with the Law of Moses for Gentile believers.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

While the Catholic church changed the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday, it didn't change the Sabbath to Sunday. Rather, Sunday is considered the Lord's day, when Christians meet to break bread. In the Catholic church, Catholics don't actually keep Sabbath in the Jewish sense, refraining from Labor (although nothing prohibits this either). But at any rate, if you go to New Advent, the Catholic encyclopedia, and look up Sabbath, this is what you will find:

"Sabbath - The seventh day of the week among the Hebrews, the day being counted from sunset to sunset, that is, from Friday evening to Saturday evening"​

one problem with this, In 636 Sabbath was done away with at the council of Laodecia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Follow the arrow back up and read again the scriptures I cited to you. It very much does away with the Law of Moses for Gentile believers.

I followed you arrows back to you post and did not find a response. Please show me from the text where in the text it does away with the Law. The very fact that Christ became our circumcision is proof that it was not done away with. Why in the world would he have to be come our circumcision if the law was no longer binding? It make no sense. Paul should have said don't you know that Christ abolished the Law and Circumcision, but he did not.

 

[TheBarrd]

This is such a silly debate.
Anyone who can read knows that the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.
God never changed it, and He never gave anyone else the authority to change it either.
I seriously have to wonder...is this really about what day we ought to go to church? Because that really shouldn't matter so much that people fight about it.
Or....

Or is it really about closing businesses on the real Sabbath?

Is it a matter of worship?

Or, is it something more sinister. Is it about money...

I never looked at it that way before this angle was brought to my attention in another context.