Let's Talk Eschatology

[ViaCrucis]

One might say why not post such a thread topic over in the Christians-Only Eschatology sub-forum? Well, anyone who has ever visited that area might know that that place is...weird. Additionally, I wanted to have a discussion on [Christian] Eschatology that had a larger audience than what the Christians Only or Eschatology boards would get. Maybe it'll get moved there anyway, we'll see.

So I wanted to talk Eschatology, specifically Christian Eschatology, but it doesn't have to stay that way as the discussion evolves. My reason for wanting to discuss this subject has largely been influenced after watching some Youtube videos on Dominionism and NAR (New Apostolic Reformation).

So broadly speaking Christian Eschatology is usually divided into categories based on how one views the idea of "The Millennium", only one passage in the Christian Bible specifically mentions this, and it's found in the Apocalypse of St. John (known also as the Book of the Revelation, and incorrectly as "Revelations"). These three broad categories are as follows:

Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Amillennialism.

Premillennialism, historically, was also called Chiliasm, from the Greek word for "thousand". That is, Millennialism. The prefix "Pre-" is added because it specifically is the idea that Christ's Parousia or Second Coming occurs prior to "The Millennium". The most well known form of Premillennialism today is Dispensationalism, though there are many who are non-Dispensationalist Premillennialists, they sometimes call themselves "Historic Premillennialists" because it is closer to the historic Chiliasm of antiquity than modern Dispensationalism. However the common ground of Premillennialism is that Christ's Parousia takes place before "The Millennium" and during this thousand year period Jesus will physically reign as King Messiah on David's throne from Jerusalem over the earth, and will subject all things to Himself. Given how vocal Dispensationalism is in Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches in the United States this is the kind of Eschatology that most non-Christians are probably going to hear about because there is a very loud and very profitable industry, pumping out books and movies, and one can find it all over the internet.

Amillennialism is, historically, the position of most Christians and remains so for most Christians and most Christian churches today. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and most Mainline Protestants are Amillennial. It's called Amillennial because we (I am an Amillennialist) don't believe "The Millennium" mentioned in the Apocalypse is literal. Our position largely isn't based on the Apocalypse, but on other passages of Scripture which speak of Christ, having ascended and presently seated at the right hand of God, as reigning as Lord in the present. All things are subject to Him now because He is Lord now, He sits and reigns as King Messiah over all things even now, exercising His royal authority on earth through the Church, not to conquer worldly powers, but to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments, by the Church's mission to love our neighbor and feed the hungry. As a Lutheran this is further coupled with the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms, in which Church and State are to be entirely separate, where the Church does not become the power behind the State; nor does the State become the power behind the Church.

Postmillennialism is by far the least known view. According to Postmillennialism Christ's Parousia takes place after the Millennium. According to Postmillennialism Christ uses His Church to exercise His authority in the world; where this differs from Amillennialism is that Postmillennialists view the Church as leading the world, eventually into a golden age. Leading the world into the Millennium, after which Christ will come back.

And here is where Postmillennialism becomes "interesting", as Postmillennialism was the view of Rushdoony and was intrinsic to Christian Reconstructionism. That Christians must take up places of power, influence, and authority and enact Theonomy, put into place "Biblical Law" by which to govern the State. This is, also the intrinsic ideas behind Dominionism, "Kingdom Now" theology, and what is called the New Apostolic Reformation. The basic theological principle here is that Christians/the Church are supposed to wrest control of all areas of public life: politics, the media, the arts, education, etc and take them "for God". In NAR theology these are called "the seven mountains", here is how Wikipedia describes it:

"As part of its effort to reclaim the US for Christ, the NAR has for several years run a campaign to reclaim what it calls the “seven mountains of culture” from demonic influence. The “mountains” are arts and entertainment; business; family; government; media; religion; and education. The NAR teaches that these “mountains” have, quite literally, fallen under the control of demons; the reason why there is sin and corruption and poverty on the Earth is because the Earth is controlled by a hierarchy of demons under the authority of Satan. The apostles must therefore be reclaimed for God to bring about the kingdom of God on Earth."

That term "the apostles" needs to be defined here. This isn't referring to the historic Apostles that all Christians are familiar with, but to modern day "apostles and prophets", as a fundamental tenet of NAR is that in these "last days" God has raised up a new generation of apostles and prophets to lead and guide the Church to seize the world for God's kingdom.

So more interesting? It would be very easy to imagine that perhaps this represents just a strange fringe of the religious landscape in the United States--and while not entirely false, it may be good to understand that we're talking people with some pretty serious influence.

These are the people who worked with/coerced the Ugandan government to enact and pass anti-homosexuality laws, specifically individuals associated with IHOP (the International House of Prayer).

As noted, while it certainly was NAR/IHOP that is perhaps chiefly influential in me wanting to talk about these things, I really am interested in opening things up to wider discussion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[smaneck]

Postmillennialism is by far the least known view. According to Postmillennialism Christ's Parousia takes place after the Millennium. According to Postmillennialism Christ uses His Church to exercise His authority in the world; where this differs from Amillennialism is that Postmillennialists view the Church as leading the world, eventually into a golden age. Leading the world into the Millennium, after which Christ will come back.

And here is where Postmillennialism becomes "interesting", as Postmillennialism was the view of Rushdoony and was intrinsic to Christian Reconstructionism.

While I don't think there are any other similarities between St. Augustine and the Reconstructionalism, it does seem to me that St. Augustine was a post-millennialist in that he believed the Millennial became with Christ's advent. Of course 1000 A.D. came and went with sort of a thud. Joachim Fiora gave birth to an early form of Dispensationalism believing that the Age of the Spirit would begin in 1260 A.D. Luther himself believed that the millennium had ended for the anti-Christ (Pope) was seated on the throne of Christ and the devil had been unloosed in the last days.

But I agree with you that currently this Dominionism is probably the most dangerous theology in Christianity right now. It strikes me as potentially the Christian version of ISIS.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While I don't think there are any other similarities between St. Augustine and the Reconstructionalism, it does seem to me that St. Augustine was a post-millennialist in that he believed the Millennial became with Christ's advent. Of course 1000 A.D. came and went with sort of a thud. Joachim Fiora gave birth to an early form of Dispensationalism believing that the Age of the Spirit would begin in 1260 A.D. Luther himself believed that the millennium had ended for the anti-Christ (Pope) was seated on the throne of Christ and the devil had been unloosed in the last days.

But I agree with you that currently this Dominionism is probably the most dangerous theology in Christianity right now. It strikes me as potentially the Christian version of ISIS.

The bold emphasis being the point I wanted to respond to: Augustine's ideas being classified as Postmillennial seem largely to be through a rather strict reading of the word Postmillennialism: Christ's Parousia happening after a thousand year period. Though generally speaking Postmillennialism sees the Church ushering the world into the Millennium through its own efforts. Like in the following diagram:

-CryptoLutheran

 

[smaneck]

Though generally speaking Postmillennialism sees the Church ushering the world into the Millennium through its own efforts. Like in the following diagram

And that of course is the opposite of what St. Augustine suggested in the City of God. He saw the church growing as the City of God during the millennium but material empires, he held, would continue to come and go.

 

[BobRyan]

Premillennialism, historically, was also called Chiliasm, from the Greek word for "thousand". That is, Millennialism. The prefix "Pre-" is added because it specifically is the idea that Christ's Parousia or Second Coming occurs prior to "The Millennium". The most well known form of Premillennialism today is Dispensationalism, though there are many who are non-Dispensationalist Premillennialists, they sometimes call themselves "Historic Premillennialists" because it is closer to the historic Chiliasm of antiquity than modern Dispensationalism. However the common ground of Premillennialism is that Christ's Parousia takes place before "The Millennium" and during this thousand year period Jesus will physically reign as King Messiah on David's throne from Jerusalem over the earth, and will subject all things to Himself. Given how vocal Dispensationalism is in Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches in the United States this is the kind of Eschatology that most non-Christians are probably going to hear about because there is a very loud and very profitable industry, pumping out books and movies, and one can find it all over the internet.

Premillennialism is what we find in the Bible. In Rev 19 you have the 2nd coming, where all the wicked are killed and Christ appears in heaven with the armies of heaven - destroying all the armies of earth "and the REST were killed". 1Thess 4 and Matt 24 both say all the righteous are taken to heaven at that time - and Rev 19 says all the wicked are killed at that time.

Then in Rev 20 we have the 1000 years. Not fake years - not even day-for-a-year years with each day in that 1000 year period representing a literal year. Rather it is 1000 years. So then after the 2nd coming - 1000 years -- then the Lake of Fire event - the great white throne judgment seen in Rev 20 at the end of the chapter.

So most evangelicals hold to the 1000 years "are real" model and are pre-Mill. Many also hold to the classic Protestant model of Historicism while holding to that 1000 years "are real" model.

And of course - strongly affirm the separation of church and state.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

-CryptoLutheran

Post Trib - Pre-Mill is what we find in Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will gather His elect" and in Rev 19 and 20 where the FIRST resurrection -- is the resurrection of the saints - and happens at the Rev 19 second coming event.

So then the John 14 promise to take the saints to heaven - is fulfilled at the Rev 19 2nd coming event.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[smaneck]

Any reason you left the preterists out, Viacrucis?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was mostly focused on how Eschatologies are categorized by their approach to the Millennium, rather than an overall eschatological approach; Preterism would then be categorized along with Futurism, Historicism, and Idealism. These approaches can and often do overlap Millennial approaches. Futurist, Historicist, Preterist, and Idealist Amillennialists all exist; also one can find, at least, both Futurist and Historicist Premillennialists. Adventism is an example of a group that subscribes to a Premillennial Historicist view; most of the Protestant Reformers were Amillennial Historicists.

There's also the very important distinction between Partial or Orthodox Preterism and Full or Hyper Preterism. The latter regarded by the vast majority of traditional Christians as heretical, the former completely in keeping with Christian orthodoxy.

I'm probably best described as an Amillennial [Partial] Preterist.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[smaneck]

I'm probably best described as an Amillennial [Partial] Preterist.

-CryptoLutheran

As an academic I would largely be a preterist itself, but as a person of faith, I believe that prophecies do sometimes jump into the future as well. But that can only be known after their fulfillment. So "unto us a child is born" refers first to Hezekiah, but later to Jesus or even Baha'u'llah. As for the Millennium, I tend to see it as something that happens again and again. Speaking of the City of God, Baha'u'llah writes:

"When the channel of the human soul is cleansed of all worldly and impeding attachments, it will unfailingly perceive the breath of the Beloved across immeasurable distances, and will, led by its perfume, attain and enter the City of Certitude. Therein he will discern the wonders of His ancient wisdom, and will perceive all the hidden teachings from the rustling leaves of the Tree—which flourisheth in that City. With both his inner and his outer ear he will hear from its dust the hymns of glory and praise ascending unto the Lord of Lords, and with his inner eye will he discover the mysteries of “return” and “revival.” How unspeakably glorious are the signs, the tokens, the revelations, and splendours which He Who is the King of names and attributes hath destined for that City! The attainment of this City quencheth thirst without water, and kindleth the love of God without fire. Within every blade of grass are enshrined the mysteries of an inscrutable wisdom, and upon every rose-bush a myriad nightingales pour out, in blissful rapture, their melody. Its wondrous tulips unfold the mystery of the undying Fire in the Burning Bush, and its sweet savours of holiness breathe the perfume of the Messianic Spirit. It bestoweth wealth without gold, and conferreth immortality without death. In every leaf ineffable delights are treasured, and within every chamber unnumbered mysteries lie hidden.
They that valiantly labour in quest of God’s will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, will be so attached and wedded to that City that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and re-adorned."

 

[cloudyday2]

How did the earliest commentators on Revelation understand its meaning? Do we have any mentions of Revelation from near the time of its composition?

 

[cloudyday2]

To clarify my question, if the symbolism of Revelation was a coded language that allowed the author to safely comment on recent history as an encouragement to persecuted Christians, then that purpose should have been remembered by some of the more informed people in those communities.

 

[smaneck]

How did the earliest commentators on Revelation understand its meaning? Do we have any mentions of Revelation from near the time of its composition?

There was considerable debate as to whether or not to include it in the canon. Most historians would say that Revelation is really talking about the Roman Empire not some New World Order in the distant future.

 

[cloudyday2]

There was considerable debate as to whether or not to include it in the canon. Most historians would say that Revelation is really talking about the Roman Empire not some New World Order in the distant future.

I wonder when the various eschatological theories developed? I suppose being new doesn't necessarily mean a theory is wrong, but it makes me skeptical.

Here is something interesting I found:

The conventional understanding until recently was that Revelation was written to comfort beleaguered Christians as they underwent persecution at the hands of a megalomaniacal Roman emperor, but much of this has now been jettisoned: Domitian is no longer viewed as a despot imposing an imperial cult, and it is no longer believed that there was any systematic empire-wide persecution of Christians in his time.[16] The current view is that Revelation was composed in the context of a conflict within the Christian community of Asia Minor over whether to engage with, or withdraw from, the far larger non-Christian community: Revelation rejects those Christians who wanted to reach an accommodation with society.[17] This is not to say that Christians in Roman Asia were not suffering, for withdrawal from the wider Roman society imposed very real penalties; Revelation offered an escape from this reality by offering an apocalyptic hope: in the words of professor Adela Yarbro Collins, "What ought to be was experienced as a present reality."[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

 

[smaneck]

I wonder when the various eschatological theories developed? I suppose being new doesn't necessarily mean a theory is wrong, but it makes me skeptical.

Here is something interesting I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

I believe pre-millenialism begins with William Miller who predicted that Christ would return in 1844, but there is an early form of dispensationalism with Joachim D'Fiora who held that the Age of the Spirit would begin in 1260.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore
What is interesting from a Baha'i perspective is that the year 1844 in the Christian calendar coincides with 1260 in the Muslim calendar. That's the year our own religion was born.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe pre-millenialism begins with William Miller who predicted that Christ would return in 1844, but there is an early form of dispensationalism with Joachim D'Fiora who held that the Age of the Spirit would begin in 1260.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_of_Fiore
What is interesting from a Baha'i perspective is that the year 1844 in the Christian calendar coincides with 1260 in the Muslim calendar. That's the year our own religion was born.

Premillennialist views had existed in a number of different ways throughout history. Some of the early fathers were Premillennialists--called Chiliasts at the time--such as St. Justin, St. Irenaeus, and St. Hippolytus. Occasional Premillennialists pop up here and there, Joachim of Fiore is a good example, during the period of the Reformation Michael Servetus is another example.

It is worth pointing out that it could be a bit too far to say that Joachim of Fiore was a kind of proto-Dispensationalist, as Dispensationalism really is a rather unique hermeneutic and system of theology; the similarity would only extend as far as that both Joachim and Dispensationalists divide history into providential epochs; but how they do this and the meaning of these are quite different.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

Is there a denomination that teaches that there will be no literal second coming of Christ?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is there a denomination that teaches that there will be no literal second coming of Christ?

There are groups that have more-or-less vague connections with Christianity that do or might. I'm thinking of Christian Science, Swedenborgians, the Unification Church etc.

From Swedenborg.org on the tenets of Swedenborgianism:

"One of Swedenborg's premises is that the Second Coming has taken place - and in fact still is taking place. The Second Coming is not an actual physical appearance of the Lord, but rather His return in spirit and truth that is being effected as a present reality as the New Church. The information revealed to Swedenborg, he felt, is a continually-occurring Second Coming in that the new information enables a new perception of the Word of God."

And depending on what you mean by "literally" there are the numerous sects/persons who have claimed to be, in some sense or another, the second coming of Christ. David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, José Luis de Jesús who claims to be both Christ and Antichrist, and many others.

And while I am unfamiliar with any denomination that officially teaches Hyper-Preterism, Hyper-Preterism (as opposed to Orthodox or Partial Preterism) teaches that Christ's return/Parousia took place in 70 AD, that Christ's return was a visitation of judgment upon the city of Jerusalem and that there will be no literal second coming to speak of. Hyper-Preterists are considered heretics by mainstream Christians (including Partial Preterists) because they reject the future, literal return of Christ, Final Judgment, and the bodily resurrection of the dead.

No mainstream Christian denomination believes that Christ's coming means anything other than the actual, literal return of the Person of Jesus of Nazareth; it's a central tenet of orthodox Christianity mentioned explicitly in the Creeds.

"From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead." (Apostles' Creed)
"From thence He shall come, in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end." (Nicene Creed)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

No mainstream Christian denomination believes that Christ's coming means anything other than the actual, literal return of the Person of Jesus of Nazareth; it's a central tenet of orthodox Christianity mentioned explicitly in the Creeds.

"From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead." (Apostles' Creed)
"From thence He shall come, in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end." (Nicene Creed)

I wonder what percentage actually believe in the second coming and what percentage are only saying a creed? The second coming was very important to early Christianity, and now it has almost become vestigial - at least that's how it was for me when I was a Christian. Of course I know that many Christians are very hopeful about a second coming.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Personally, I'm rather fond of the idea that the Millennium/Revelation/the Kali Yuga or whatever you want to call it is in fact a state of mind, not a time period that can be pinned down with historical dates at any specific point. And the Kingdom is not a place to be sought outside of ourselves - it is already there, like the Buddhist concept of Enlightenment. It's not about reaching a new era or achieving a new state - it's all about realizing that we're ALREADY THERE.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Double post.