Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

[Davian]

God is immaterial. He's not a part of the physical universe. He's made out of spirit.

What is "spirit", and how would you differentiate it from "imaginary"?

 

[quatona]

Never-the-less, the Christian god did not begin to exist. I said this at least twice. Sprechen sie English?

Personally, I find the attempt to argue for the existence of something by means of defining it into existence totally unconvincing.

 

[Winepress777]

...Really, this is a ridiculous argument.

It's not an argument, it is the proof you asked for. And you weren't expecting that. I DO jump up on the roof tops and proclaim Jesus is come in my flesh. You absolutely positively can not. Will not. Why? Because the Word says you can not. And you lie if you say you could.

(1Jn 4:2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...

You are one or the other my friend. And you can prove it right here in all our presence and before God. He will honor your choice either way. Peace

 

[Winepress777]

And you do believe Truth? How do you know that?

For starters;

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 Corinthians 2:1-16
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. ...

John 8:32
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Mark 4:11-12
And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...


We search these things out


Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

 

[The Cadet]

(2Pe 3:3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


(2Pe 3:4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


(2Pe 3:5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


(2Pe 3:6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


(2Pe 3:7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

...You're not very good at the whole "logic" thing, are you? Yeah, people will scoff at the messages of the bible. They'll scoff at anything which appears ludicrous, whether it's true or not. It's trivially easy to point to passages like this in any religious text and say, "See, they predicted we would scoff!" It's no different from the napkin religion posted above.

Can we go back to talking about William Lane Craig? His arguments are flawed, but at least they don't make me want to bang my head against a wall repeatedly.

 

[quatona]

Can we go back to talking about William Lane Craig? His arguments are flawed, but at least they don't make me want to bang my head against a wall repeatedly.

Not? You must be a very patient guy.

 

[Davian]

Denying your creator

I do not deny; I am sceptical of unevidenced religious assertions.

who gives you the proof in His Book

Yes, that circular reasoning again. It only works if you already believe (that is why it is called "circular").

is being tool-less

Are you calling me "tool-less"? Is that intended as hurtful?

 

[twob4me]

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[David4223]

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[KCfromNC]

Talked about it in an above post. I suspect that God's time runs in a circular fashion.

What does this even mean?

Did you not read the comment in parentheses?

That's not an answer.

It's not a very reasonable possibility.

In what way is it unreasonable? Please be specific.

The comparison is to how the universe runs. It runs much like a machine. The comparison would lead us to deduce that since machines have a designer that the universe had a designer.

Yes. And to be more precise, machines have a human designer. Therefore if you really believe that the universe looks like a machine you're saying it looks like it was designed by humans. Is that really what you're trying to sell here? That you look at a planet and think "you know, the most reasonable conclusion is that some people designed and built this just like the built a birdhouse". Or could it be that you're stretching a bit with the comparison between things we know are designed by humans and the was natural processes produce the appearance of design?

 

[Davian]

For starters;
<snip>

We search these things out

<snip>

Indeed - it is called confirmation bias.

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors. - link

Got anything for someone that does not already believe this "truth" that you claim to have?

 

[AllanV]

The one idea in the Bible from the beginning to end is the potential to be immortal. It was lost in the Garden of Eden and the consciousness of man changed, but it will be regained in the future.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Good and evil is written into man's consciousness and is the fact that even today people need to do bad to then understand good.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

http://techgenmag.com/2015/04/07/wi...-forever-the-genetics-of-immortality-say-yes/

Because man changed in the past there would be some indications genetically that living forever would be possible. There needs to be a consciousness shift and Jesus has shown the truth of how this is achieved. The mind must be renewed.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

It is clear that the way to God is a certain way of inducing a mind change and consciousness shift that separates a person from their biology and mind connections with other humans. It is a peculiar experience similar to the fast of Jesus and His expelling of Satan and the demons by the word of God in the desert.
Every person is subject to these in the mind but they only truly reveal themselves when provoked. Every person is comfortable with their own demons and these become normal aspects of the personality.

 

[Davian]

The one idea in the Bible from the beginning to end is the potential to be immortal. It was lost in the Garden of Eden and the consciousness of man changed, but it will be regained in the future.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Good and evil is written into man's consciousness and is the fact that even today people need to do bad to then understand good.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

http://techgenmag.com/2015/04/07/wi...-forever-the-genetics-of-immortality-say-yes/

Because man changed in the past there would be some indications genetically that living forever would be possible. There needs to be a consciousness shift and Jesus has shown the truth of how this is achieved. The mind must be renewed.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

It is clear that the way to God is a certain way of inducing a mind change and consciousness shift that separates a person from their biology and mind connections with other humans. It is a peculiar experience similar to the fast of Jesus and His expelling of Satan and the demons by the word of God in the desert.
Every person is subject to these in the mind but they only truly reveal themselves when provoked. Every person is comfortable with their own demons and these become normal aspects of the personality.

What has this to do with the OP?

 

[AllanV]

What has this to do with the OP?

If a person Knows God he or she will potentially live forever. That is God's request that we all Know Him. It is necessary to think about where God is because immortality isn't actually sought after and everyone accepts that they will die at some point. But then most when faced with it shrink back possibly in fear of pain or suffering.
The best argument that can be offered is what is indicated and offered to those who are able to overcome.

 

[Belk]

If a person Knows God he or she will potentially live forever. That is God's request that we all Know Him. It is necessary to think about where God is because immortality isn't actually sought after and everyone accepts that they will die at some point. But then most when faced with it shrink back possibly in fear of pain or suffering.
The best argument that can be offered is what is indicated and offered to those who are able to overcome.

Sounds like an argument from consequence.

 

[Davian]

If a person Knows God he or she will potentially live forever. That is God's request that we all Know Him. It is necessary to think about where God is because immortality isn't actually sought after and everyone accepts that they will die at some point. But then most when faced with it shrink back possibly in fear of pain or suffering.
The best argument that can be offered is what is indicated and offered to those who are able to overcome.

But that is not an argument for the existence of your god; I am not concerned of the promises your particular religion makes, if the veracity message cannot be established.

 

[Joshua260]

Personally, I find the attempt to argue for the existence of something by means of defining it into existence totally unconvincing.

That might be relevant if that's what I did, but it wasn't.
1. I simply explained that God did not begin to exist.
2. P2 simply says that everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.

Those two statements alone do not argue for God's existence. S2 lays down a foundational premise and s1 simply shows that God is not in that group discussed in s2.

 

[nonbeliever314]

That might be relevant if that's what I did, but it wasn't.
1. I simply explained that God did not begin to exist.
2. P2 simply says that everything that begins to exist has a cause for it's existence.

Those two statements alone do not argue for God's existence. S2 lays down a foundational premise and s1 simply shows that God is not in that group discussed in s2.

You didn't explain that God did not begin to exist, you asserted it.
And when are we going to start doing some QM and GR? I'd rather argue mathmatically at this point.

 

[quatona]

That might be relevant if that's what I did, but it wasn't.
1. I simply explained that God did not begin to exist.

No, you didn´t explain it. You simply defined God as not having a beginning.

 

[Davian]

Define exactly what you mean.

It may be perceived by some as hypocritical to cherry pick an untestable hypothesis from modern cosmology just to support one line of an argument while discarding the rest of the science as incompatible with your religious beliefs.

These astrophysicists that are cited in this thread, whose statements you feel do not undercut this "beginning" that you require for your KCA, do you concur with their other scientific conclusions about the nature of the cosmos, such as this "beginning" (if it were such) having happened about 13.7 billion years ago, with our solar system forming about 4.5 billions years ago?