• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

Status
Not open for further replies.

Achilles6129

Veteran
Feb 19, 2006
4,504
367
Columbus, Ohio
✟44,682.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Republican
How exactly do you understand "God's time" to work. What testable model do you have for this idea and what successful predictions has it made?

Talked about it in an above post. I suspect that God's time runs in a circular fashion.

Don't think I didn't notice the subtle attempt to shift from "we understand there's a different type of time for gods" to "if there is a different type of time for gods".

Did you not read the comment in parentheses?

Another possibility is that there's no intelligent designer, obviously.

It's not a very reasonable possibility.

We know cars are designed because we see humans design, build and repair them. Unless you have examples of a supernatural designer god doing the same, there's no comparison.

The comparison is to how the universe runs. It runs much like a machine. The comparison would lead us to deduce that since machines have a designer that the universe had a designer.
 
Upvote 0

Achilles6129

Veteran
Feb 19, 2006
4,504
367
Columbus, Ohio
✟44,682.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Republican
And a Muslim will say the same thing about the Qur'an and Allah. I'd say neither of you have any basis. What methodology can an outsider use to determine who is right?

Right, and you could say the same thing about Mother Goose or Harry Potter. Anyone can make any claim that they want to. The only way for at outsider to "determine who's right" is based on reasonable deductions and personal experience - the sort mentioned in the New Testament. I don't believe, however, that a similar personal experience is mentioned in the Qur'an.
 
Upvote 0

TillICollapse

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2013
3,416
278
✟21,582.00
Gender
Male
Marital Status
Single
(Joh 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I've been able to prove that, because a true atheist is unable, totally and completely unable, to confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. That is the proof that He wasn't been drawn by God. If there was no God, any of them would be able to say it for it would then mean nothing. It works on any of them. Try it
Do you believe an atheist is capable of loving Jesus and acknowledging Jesus is real, while still being an atheist ?
 
Upvote 0

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
69
✟16,405.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
What, you mean sincerely? How could I possibly sincerely confess to something I do not believe? I mean, if you just want me to say that Jesus Christ is my lord and savior, I'll do that for you all day. I'll shout it from the rooftops. I won't believe any of it, of course, and it won't be sincere, but you don't need some divine providence for that. I bet you couldn't sincerely confess to a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster either. It's simple logic that if you don't believe in something, you cannot sincerely claim to hold belief in that thing, regardless of if it's a god or a speck of dust floating around Uranus.
Exactly. You can't do it. For any number of the reasons you give. You say you can, but you can't. Go ahead, jump and that roof and confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. But you won't. There is the proof.
(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 
Upvote 0

Joshua260

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2012
1,448
42
North Carolina
✟17,004.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So what's the point of debating it, then? You clearly have no interest, regardless of what the evidence says, of changing your mind. I wonder if you extrapolate that as far as WLC does, to the point where you could be shown Jesus rotting in the tomb and his ostensibly dead body being moved by disciples and buried in an unmarked grave elsewhere via a time machine and still have faith that he rose from the dead. And then I'm reminded that WLC thinks that a personal revelation at one point should supercede his own repeatable observable experience, and I get really sad. :(
You are greatly incorrect on this. Craig has said that if presented with such a defeater, he would have to consider the possibility that what he believes to be witness of the Holy Spirit is really just own delusion (I am greatly paraphrasing him). But given the lack of any good defeaters to his properly basic belief, he is justified in believing in that. For example, one could tell him that he is really just a brain in a vat and that all he thinks is reality is just a delusion. But lacking any defeater to prove that, he is perfectly justified that his senses are telling him the truth...that there really is a world outside of his own self.
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
I know that God's time must run differently because you can't have an infinite series of past events (as time runs in our universe) - it's an impossibility. If you had an infinite series of past events in the way we understand time, you could never have gotten to your present event. Thus, time must run differently for God.

Now, if you want to claim there's no God, it wouldn't matter. You'd still have the same issue. Whatever inanimate, unintelligent "thing" that you believe somehow made the universe would have to have time run differently for it.

My idea is that whereas time runs in a straight line in our universe, time for God runs in a circular fashion. Hence God would have no beginning and no end yet also be able to perform actions in his own time, like create a universe, for example.
I do not presuppose that the English language in layman's terms is capable of adequately framing the period of time prior to the current expansion of the cosmos in a manner that supports your position. The astrophysicists do not seem concerned about it.

Your position depends on that presupposition, thus it fails.
Do you mean something "not designed" by human beings? Technically, when we come to theology, everything is designed.
Thus rendering the word useless.
 
Upvote 0

Joshua260

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2012
1,448
42
North Carolina
✟17,004.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm well aware of Krauss's "universe from nothing". Haven't read it, mind, but I got the cliffs notes. But here's the thing - Krauss basically contests the other premise of Kalam, as far as I can tell. This is not exactly a great sign. But the fact that there is still much uncertainty within this field should give pause for thought when building a syllogistic argument based on premises that are still very much unresolved within the field to support an entity which is completely untestable and unfalsifiable by science.
His book has been heavily criticized by fellow atheists. One such atheist wrote that his "nothing" is really not "nothing" at all, but a definite something. When Christians say nothing, they mean "not anything". This is not the same as what Krauss argued in his book.
 
Upvote 0

nonbeliever314

....grinding teeth.
Mar 11, 2015
398
49
✟23,292.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
IMG_1580.JPG
I'm a "scientific thinker" also. I took several physics courses (up to and including General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics) and read numerous books on the subject

Alright then, let's cut the poop and start doing physics.
 
Upvote 0

HannahElizaW

God Says It, THAT Settles It!
Feb 11, 2015
401
97
27
Oklahoma, USA
✟23,971.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
In your opinion, what's the very best argument for the existence of God? Conversely, what's the top argument against the existence of God?
Butting in:

For God: I'd say the argument concerning: logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relvancy; as a basic framework for it.

Against God: I...to be honest...wouldn't know and don't have enough background to argue for it.

:Butting out.
 
Upvote 0

HannahElizaW

God Says It, THAT Settles It!
Feb 11, 2015
401
97
27
Oklahoma, USA
✟23,971.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Nice try with the "I am" though. That type of thing won't stick scientifically.
You're right. It doesn't. But what does help is, scientifically speaking, there are some evidences that prove that the universe is NOT eternal (forgive me for not remembering the sources I had). Which leaves us with a Creator. (Although it doesn't prove WHO did it). One thing that helped me with the previous little tidbit (though you might argue more reasonably) is the question "why do we have something rather than nothing at all?". As one put it: The argument for God can be presented very easily. Something exists. You do not get something from nothing. Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.

...This probably wasn't what you were referring to at all or it's just another bug in your windshield but I thought this might..help...okay I'm done (butting out now).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joshua260
Upvote 0

AllanV

Newbie
Feb 4, 2013
634
64
NZ
✟23,913.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And a Muslim will say the same thing about the Qur'an and Allah. I'd say neither of you have any basis. What methodology can an outsider use to determine who is right?

Well that is a very liberal interpretation of that psalm. Even assuming that it meant light as in emissions in the electromagnetic spectrum, emissions in the electromagnetic spectrum are not the same thing as the strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, electromagnetic force, or gravitational force. The light produced by nuclear fusion is not the same thing as the binding energy in atoms. Also, you totally ignore the second part of that psalm, the "stretching out of the heavens like a curtain". What does that even mean? It would seem to imply the cosmos as some sort of tapestry stretched across the night sky, or a firmament (not exactly an uncommon belief in the bible).

I had no religious understanding and did not know what it was about except hearing people in their cursing in my first work experience. The idea of God was an old bearded man on a cloud in the sky who looked over everything.
The experience of God that occurred was powerful in its immediacy and the realization occurred that there is a barrier in the natural mind to knowing God. That barrier is in what people think and what comes into the mind and influences by prompting and temptation as to what they say, their demeanor and actions. It is understanding this barrier and how it influences behavior that is the key. Knowing God is in a mind that is a little deeper and just beyond the mind that is usually thought from. It was after the experience that the Bible was read and the depth of what it was revealing held me although most of it is difficult as is Christianity and Islam. There is truth in the books but many have interpreted for their own agendas.

During a quiet life with out power or phone with no debt and few distractions the experience of God occurred. In the years that followed a whole new quest began to re-understand the world, what people believed and what influenced their behavior.
There is a potential to be immortal. There is an ultimate technology available. But there is a barrier in the mind that is influenced by the senses of the biological body.

Science is generally hijacked and is mostly used to exploit resources to gain national advantage and develop technology with weaponry to back up an ideology. The theoretical scientist seems to be in something of a quest to discredit the idea of a God. The barrier in the mind influences behavior and inventions and is generally destructive from observation. Man lacks insight to ensure his continued survival on this planet and even seems to be actively destroying it.

It is difficult to comprehend a God that is manifesting everything seen and is an intrinsic part of the makeup of what appears and that we move and have our physical being in this. The atom is expanded as we know and is mostly free space much like the universe. The God I know takes up the space in volume that I do but generally the natural mind hides the awareness of and ability to know God. We have our focus changed from birth, genetically, biologically and now idolize the work of the hands in the structures, vehicles and systems that have been developed over time.

I wasn't aware that all the forces you relate are actually completely understood apart from what they do and what influences them. From the viewpoint of the earth the night sky is spread like a curtain but the main point is that what is seen is made from something that does not appear. The eternal God's hand is in what is seen.
 
Upvote 0

nonbeliever314

....grinding teeth.
Mar 11, 2015
398
49
✟23,292.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Butting in:

For God: I'd say the argument concerning: logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relvancy; as a basic framework for it.

Against God: I...to be honest...wouldn't know and don't have enough background to argue for it.

:Butting out.

You're right. It doesn't. But what does help is, scientifically speaking, there are some evidences that prove that the universe is NOT eternal (forgive me for not remembering the sources I had). Which leaves us with a Creator. (Although it doesn't prove WHO did it). One thing that helped me with the previous little tidbit (though you might argue more reasonably) is the question "why do we have something rather than nothing at all?". As one put it: The argument for God can be presented very easily. Something exists. You do not get something from nothing. Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.

...This probably wasn't what you were referring to at all or it's just another bug in your windshield but I thought this might..help...okay I'm done (butting out now).

Thank you for being honest, and admitting what you do and do not know. Everything in both of your replies I highly respect you for.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
You are greatly incorrect on this. Craig has said that if presented with such a defeater, he would have to consider the possibility that what he believes to be witness of the Holy Spirit is really just own delusion (I am greatly paraphrasing him).
Citation needed.

But given the lack of any good defeaters to his properly basic belief, he is justified in believing in that.
Not necessarily. People of different religions also claim that their own theological commitments are justified by their "inner witness," or something to that effect. This should be enough to give him pause to reflect.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
But I believe it can be shown that the KCA is more plausibly true than not, and that is the position of Craig. So far, the best objection I've heard on this thread is "We don't know". Not only has no one succeeded in showing that Vilenkin currently believes in an eternal universe (he used to, but not now), but no one has even addressed the rest of the support for p2:
1. The philosophical arguments against infinite regress.
2. The 2nd law of thermodynamics suggests that if time was infinite, then the universe surely would have fully expended all of it's usable energy by now.
3. Einstein's Theory of General Relativity suggests a beginning of the universe. He originally tried to create a "fudge factor" to avoid that conclusion but later had to retract it and called it the biggest blunder of his life.
4. The discovery of the red-shift suggest the expansion of the universe and implies a beginning.
5. The discovery of the background radiation also matched the level of what was predicted by earlier theories.
This has been addressed. You ignored it.

I'm a "scientific thinker" also. I took several physics courses (up to and including General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics) and read numerous books on the subject. But I don't think that proves anything anyway. There are also numerous scientists who believe that the universe had a definite beginning, most notably Stephen Hawking. He developed a theory that avoided a singularity by inserting what he called "imaginary time". He explained that doing this allowed him to perform certain complicated calculations. But he admits that Imaginary time is just that...imaginary. It's just a mathematical contrivance.
Some cosmological models are eternal, others are not. What relevance does this have, other than to show that the premise is contestable?

The reason I cannot agree that there is a possibility that God does not exist is because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit. I know that means nothing to you. That's a different subject though, and I'd rather stay on the KCA in this thread.
So there is nothing that could lead you to reconsider your theological commitments?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
The comparison is to how the universe runs. It runs much like a machine. The comparison would lead us to deduce that since machines have a designer that the universe had a designer.
The universe runs like the universe. What would lead one to conclude that it is "designed"?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.