What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

[seekingsolace]

I guess people don't think the devil is competent at deception.

 

[ContraMundum]

Because Hitler tapped into a growing antisemetism in the German christian community..... in many cases told their victims they were doing it in the name of the church and christ.

Can you show me where to find info about the underlined bits?

 

[Dave-W]

Can you show me where to find info about the underlined bits?

You can start here:

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.ww2.html
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007171
http://alphahistory.com/holocaust/19th-century-anti-semitism/

 

[ContraMundum]

You can start here:

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.ww2.html
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007171
http://alphahistory.com/holocaust/19th-century-anti-semitism/

OK thanks...pretty much read most of that kind of stuff before. I was kind of hoping for some newer research. But I suppose it's all been covered.

 

[Lulav]

This is, in my opinion, quite insightful. I'm happy you made this statement.

I find it difficult to deal with the fact that so many people in this movement think that they are the spiritual successors of the original Church, as if the last 2,000 years could somehow be wiped away and have no real influence on their personal interpretation of the Bible.

One excellent example is how almost all MJs and MGs understand the Trinity and the person of Jesus. It is completely in-line with what has been handed down in the Protestant and Catholic traditions. Do they really imagine that this was the faith of the earliest Christians? While it makes you feel good to imagine that your brand of beliefs most readily reflects the positions of the founders of your religion, how can this be proven? 1 Corinthians 15 mentions "people who are being baptized for the dead" (οἱ βαπτιζόμενοι ὑπὲρ τῶν νεκρῶν). Is this something that modern MJs understand and practice?

Where do you think the Mormons got it from?

St. Chrysostom tells us further that the proxy who was to be baptized used to be concealed under the bier of the dead man, who was supposed to answer in his name that he desired to be baptized. How perfectly natural the custom was may be seen from the fact that among the Jews also a man dying under ceremonial pollution was cleansed by proxy.

 

[jerry kelso]

To all,
1. According to the scriptures Paul said there is no jew or gentile, man or female etc. There is only one body of Christ. Denominations are not scriptural.
2. From what I have heard and understand that the Messianic jews believe in the finished work of Christ and the resurrected Lord who makes us one.
3. In practice it is said they can still be a jew culturally but they cannot do it to believe in salvation or attain salvation or the letter of the law mentality.
4. The salvation purposes had to do with everything in their culture in the bible days pointing to the sacrifices, holiness, etc. The letter of the law mentality is done away with because of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good and that made them live to the frailty of man. 5. Also, the law could never save in the first place only Jesus can.
6. In Jeremiah, the new covenant was prophetic and only offered officially to the jewish nation. This doesn't mean it was never to be for the whole world to receive but, that is a somewhat separate issue.
7. The law was till the seed should come so it was only temporary. However, for the jews the law was to be forever. The only way to reconcile this is to show the Mosaic law being abolished and now the new law in their hearts that is built on better promises is what the context should be. After all there would be no need for a new covenant if the old would have been able to save a person.
8. The truth is that the jews cannot really practice Judaism of the Mosaic Covenant in full for there is no temple, no sacrifices and they have to be able to keep all the laws and commandments etc.
The jews can still be jews culturally but don't have to adhere to the letter of the law mentality and they don't have to be a gentile christian anymore than a gentile needs to become a jewish believer. Does a gentile christian who abides by some laws of the dietary laws in the Torah a jew or is a jew eating pork no longer a jew when it is no longer required under the new covenant? Does a jew assert the judgement of stoning if they commit adultery today? That is in the torah but it is not under the new covenant.
9. I do believe that the rift between the Jewish community and the christian community is a few things.
a). It makes the jew feel like he cannot be a jew.
b). It makes the gentile feel like he has to become a jew.
c). It makes the jew feel like he is violating the law that he believes he is under.
d). It makes the gentile feel like he has to be more legalistic.
e). It makes both parties feel empowered of being more than the other.
There are probably more reasons and these will vary with different people etc.
10. This all boils down to one word and that is religion.
If the new covenant is put into proper perspective for both parties I believe there would be harmony and perspective in the church and still be able to keep the identity of the nation of Israel and their callings and purpose which will be realized in the future, understood and intact.
As far as the torah in the perspective of the Mosaic covenant for them to believe in being abolished can be seen for these reasons in short using the sacrificial system, the civil law and the moral law.
1a). The sacrificial system was done away because the blood of bulls and goats could not save and the ceremonial cleansings and the rest of the types and shadows were fulfilled in Christ at Calvary.
1b). The civil law is for the disobedient according to Timothy. Christians are not to be subdued because of the finished work of Christ and the power that resides in them and who they are in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit to help us 24-7 without measure and the old testament saints did not. It doesn't mean that the old testament saints didn't ever have help etc. but the ethic of leaning to self effort was more a characteristic because of the nature of the context of working up to a law in self effort was more than overcoming. Paul shows this dichotomy in Romans 7 of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man.
1c). The moral law was done away, not because of the moral aspect for right is right and wrong is wrong and sin is always wrong. It was done away with in context of the specific judgement which dealt with the blessing and cursing system built into the Mosaic law. The new covenant is built on better promises not because the law of Moses was inferior as in a bad covenant for it had glory but the new covenant has greater glory in light of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ! Amen! Jerry Kelso

 

[Lulav]

If the new covenant is put into proper perspective for both parties I believe there would be harmony and perspective in the church and still be able to keep the identity of the nation of Israel and their callings and purpose which will be realized in the future, understood and intact.
As far as the torah in the perspective of the Mosaic covenant for them to believe in being abolished can be seen for these reasons in short using the sacrificial system, the civil law and the moral law.

1a). The sacrificial system was done away because the blood of bulls and goats could not save and the ceremonial cleansings and the rest of the types and shadows were fulfilled in Christ at Calvary.
1b). The civil law is for the disobedient according to Timothy. Christians are not to be subdued because of the finished work of Christ and the power that resides in them and who they are in Christ. We have the Holy Spirit to help us 24-7 without measure and the old testament saints did not. It doesn't mean that the old testament saints didn't ever have help etc. but the ethic of leaning to self effort was more a characteristic because of the nature of the context of working up to a law in self effort was more than overcoming. Paul shows this dichotomy in Romans 7 of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man.
1c). The moral law was done away, not because of the moral aspect for right is right and wrong is wrong and sin is always wrong. It was done away with in context of the specific judgement which dealt with the blessing and cursing system built into the Mosaic law. The new covenant is built on better promises not because the law of Moses was inferior as in a bad covenant for it had glory but the new covenant has greater glory in light of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ! Amen! Jerry Kelso

A. The blood offerings were for a covering, not salvation.
"ceremonial cleansings' fulfilled on the cross? Can you explain to me how Jesus on the cross fulfills my obligations regarding niddah?

B. Timothy taught none of this, this came from Paul. Anyway, Gentile Christians who were idoloters and never kept any of G-ds Holy commandments now are freed from keeping the law. Does that really make sense to you?

C. Moral law done away with, so you are free to murder, steal, lie, sleep around, worship other gods, covet, hate your parents, etc. ??? With no repentance and no repercussions?

Wow! it is a wonder that more people aren't Christians!

 

[Meowzltov]

8. The truth is that the jews cannot really practice Judaism of the Mosaic Covenant in full for there is no temple, no sacrifices and they have to be able to keep all the laws and commandments etc.

You follow those laws that apply to you. One of the laws that apply is that sacrifices are only offered at the temple. Since there is no temple, it would be unlawful to offer sacrifices anyplace else. It is not the case that Jews are "not really practicing Judaism" without the Temple. Daniel practiced Judaism fully in Babylon...no temple there.

 

[jerry kelso]

A. The blood offerings were for a covering, not salvation.
"ceremonial cleansings' fulfilled on the cross? Can you explain to me how Jesus on the cross fulfills my obligations regarding niddah?

B. Timothy taught none of this, this came from Paul. Anyway, Gentile Christians who were idoloters and never kept any of G-ds Holy commandments now are freed from keeping the law. Does that really make sense to you?

C. Moral law done away with, so you are free to murder, steal, lie, sleep around, worship other gods, covet, hate your parents, etc. ??? With no repentance and no repercussions?

Wow! it is a wonder that more people aren't Christians!

lulav,

Sorry, but you completely misunderstood what I said.
1. Jesus came to fulfill the law. This law was the law of Moses. He did this. He did it through things such as being born to the virgin Mary, his parents taking him to the temple and going through all the rituals, different times when he said a particular thing concerning the old testament being fulfilled etc. Jesus fulfilling the law of Moses under the Kingdom of Heaven message and the Kingdom of God message was all in the context of his messiahship to Israel. The land was connected to Abraham and Jesus said, the meek shall inherit the earth. Also in this same phrase inheriting calls back to the king and the kingdom on earth which he called the KoH in the physical aspect which connects with David. Isaiah 9:6-7 talks about the Messiah's birth and the kingdom forever for the government would be upon his shoulders.
The cog in the wheel is that Israel was to repent as a nation. Matthew 6:33 Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. This is the spiritual aspect of the KoG as in Luke 17:20-21. Paul said, the gifts and calling of Israel are without repentance meaning they would come to pass, but the condition for entrance into the kingdom was Repent for the KoH is at hand.
The blood was for a covering for sins which life is in the blood. The new covenant is the blood of Christ. So to say it wasn't for salvation as in no connection as a type or shadow is incorrect.
2. Hebrews is clear that the blood of bulls and goats and even divers washings which dealt with water baptism were done away with when Christ died on Calvary.
It is because of Christ death who arose to intercede in the throne room that we can go straight to the throne of grace instead of going through the priest and why there are no more sacrifices etc. Water baptism dealt with the purification of sin and was required to do though it was a type and could not actually save a person. Read Numbers 19. John the baptist baptized to repentance to flee the wrath to come and because the kingdom of heaven was at hand. It still was a type and not an actual saving of the individual.
Actually, all the types and shadow pointed to the coming redeemer and a sacrifice in everything a jew did.
3. Sanctification is also allocated through the finished work of Christ. Jesus satisfied everything when he finished his work on the cross and said it was finished.
The Mosaic law was do, do, do and Christ death and resurrection was what he did, what he did, what he did.
Colossians 2:15 says, Christ nailed those ceremonial works to the cross.
Timothy taught what he received from Paul for he was his son in the faith. Timothy talks about the law and how it is for the rebellious and sinners. This is talking about the civil law. As christians we are not to be subdued if we are abiding in Christ and allowing him to control us.
4. Being free from the law of Moses includes jews as well as gentiles who had no covenant. Jeremiah talks about a new covenant and that is what jews and gentiles need to understand.
Some gentile believers think there was no grace in the old testament and only law. This is not true in the least anymore than there is no law today but only grace. It took grace for God to want to save anyone in any age. If there was no law it would be a free for all of immorality and chaos for everyone.
5. I didn't say that moral law of itself was done away with. I said that sin is always sin and always wrong. Thou shalt not kill, steal commit adultery, etc is wrong today just as much as in the old covenant.
What I said was that the moral law connected to the specific curse of the judgements was done away with.
I believe I gave this example; Adultery is wrong today just like in the old covenant. However, in the old covenant the penalty was stoning if someone committed adultery. Today, that is not true in our culture as a fixed law.
Picture it like a will. There can be same basic items of information in both an old will and a new one. But, one can change the circumstances surrounding one of those items and change the whole contexts and not lose definition of the basic meaning.
6. I do not dismiss the fact that the law of Moses was holy and good and that the life towards God was to be who they were. However, the way to attain was weak compared to when Christ died and rose again. This is why the new covenant was built on better promises. Peter said the law was a yoke and not to put it upon the gentiles. Paul said the law had glory but the new covenant had more glory and a veil was put over their eyes so they could not see what was to take place. The changing of the law of Moses to the new covenant was the changing.
7. Gradual revelation God has given with each age and dispensation and we need to know it all and why so we can fully understand the redemptive plan of God.
I will ask you; what is your biggest concern and fear of the law of Moses and its ethic being abolished on the cross and the new covenant which is the blood of Christ and the message of the cross and resurrection? Jerry Kelso
Jesus came to earth to offer the kingdom to Israel and they rejected it because they would not repent as a whole nation.

 

[Lulav]

lulav,

Sorry, but you completely misunderstood what I said.
1. Jesus came to fulfill the law. This law was the law of Moses.

No, stop right there.

Funny I just got done arguing this in another matter. Please read this.

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44

Do you see where it says, 'about me'? and do you see where it says, in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms?

Not all those books, but within those books there were things about him that he came to fulfil, not destroy as he said.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…



For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot,
will pass (parerchomai - rendered void) from the Law until all is accomplished.

 

[pat34lee]

The changing of the law of Moses to the new covenant was the changing.

Really? So, what is all the law, since it is written on your heart, and it has to be the same as the law written on my heart and Lulav's and Visionary's, etc.? Since we don't need teachers any more, as he will teach us everything, when should we dismantle all the churches? So when did that new covenant go into effect?

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN YET.

 

[jerry kelso]

No, stop right there.

Funny I just got done arguing this in another matter. Please read this.

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44

Do you see where it says, 'about me'? and do you see where it says, in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms?

Not all those books, but within those books there were things about him that he came to fulfil, not destroy as he said.

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…



For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot,
will pass (parerchomai - rendered void) from the Law until all is accomplished.

lulav,
1. First of all I didn't say Christ destroyed anything.
Christ fulfilled the law.
When he died the law had reached it's goal and satisfied its purpose and it was abolish for it was no longer needed in the context of Moses. Moses was the mediator of the old law and now Christ is the mediator of the new covenant.
The smallest letter or stroke was as just as solid and secure as the impossibility of the heaven and earth passing away at that time. The key is until all is accomplished. Everything was accomplished for the fulness of grace and the redemption being settled completely at the cross when he said it was finished. It was not talking about when earth and heaven would pass away because that will not happen until after the Kingdom of God is all in all.
Jesus messiahship ministry was the last 3 years of his life to the jews only, giving the law of Moses in the proper perspective, combatting the traditions and hypocrisy of men by the scribes and the pharisees, and preaching the KoH and the KoG so they could fulfill Isaiah 2:2-4. This did not happen for they did not repent as a nation and rejected Christ. Matthew 23:37-39.
You need to read and understand the bible context and what I really said.
You are obviously upset because I said the Law of Moses was done away with. Is this correct? Tell me your greatest concern and fear about that. Tell me what you understand about the new covenant. Jerry kelso

 

[Lulav]

lulav,
1. First of all I didn't say Christ destroyed anything.
Christ fulfilled the law.
When he died the law had reached it's goal and satisfied its purpose and it was abolish for it was no longer needed in the context of Moses. Moses was the mediator of the old law and now Christ is the mediator of the new covenant.
The smallest letter or stroke was as just as solid and secure as the impossibility of the heaven and earth passing away at that time. The key is until all is accomplished. Everything was accomplished for the fulness of grace and the redemption being settled completely at the cross when he said it was finished. It was not talking about when earth and heaven would pass away because that will not happen until after the Kingdom of God is all in all.
Jesus messiahship ministry was the last 3 years of his life to the jews only, giving the law of Moses in the proper perspective, combatting the traditions and hypocrisy of men by the scribes and the pharisees, and preaching the KoH and the KoG so they could fulfill Isaiah 2:2-4. This did not happen for they did not repent as a nation and rejected Christ. Matthew 23:37-39.
You need to read and understand the bible context and what I really said.
You are obviously upset because I said the Law of Moses was done away with. Is this correct? Tell me your greatest concern and fear about that. Tell me what you understand about the new covenant. Jerry kelso

Jerry, do you practice Messianic Judaism? If not you are not allowed to teach in this forum, nor are you allowed to post anything that speaks of the torah being done away with, it is part of our beliefs to believe what G-d said there regarding his commandments. That said, commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist). Otherwise all are still in effect for those whom it speaks to.

I'll give you an example why your belief is flawed.

You say Jesus fulfilled all the torah or Law of Moses, right?

Can you answer this?

How did he fulfil the laws of the Levites?
How did he fulfil the laws of Niddah concerning women?
How did he fulfil the laws concerning going to war?

and I could go on but I think you should realize by now that he could not fulfill everything so what I posted before about where He said He came to fulfil all that was written about him, it is true, but that doesn't equate to all of the Torah.

Do you believe he was perfect, that he did not sin? If so how would you explain that the Torah contains this:


"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

So you are basically saying he did away with it, is that not the ultimate diminishing? And if he did indeed do this he would be in grave sin against G-d.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I guess people don't think the devil is competent at deception.

People are EXTREMELY adept at blaming the devil for the evil THEY CHOOSE TO DO.

 

[Lulav]

People are EXTREMELY adept at blaming the devil for the evil THEY CHOOSE TO DO.

Then there are those who chose not to believe that he has any power and are deceived in that. Would Eve have sinned if not deceived?

 

[Meowzltov]

Then there are those who chose not to believe that he has any power and are deceived in that. Would Eve have sinned if not deceived?

She certainly had the potential.

 

[Lulav]

She certainly had the potential.

I would have to argue otherwise, with the information we have in the narrative if was not until she was told a lie did she partake. It was partaking of that 'fruit' that gave the knowledge.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, do you practice Messianic Judaism? If not you are not allowed to teach in this forum, nor are you allowed to post anything that speaks of the torah being done away with, it is part of our beliefs to believe what G-d said there regarding his commandments. That said, commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist). Otherwise all are still in effect for those whom it speaks to.

I'll give you an example why your belief is flawed.

You say Jesus fulfilled all the torah or Law of Moses, right?

Can you answer this?

How did he fulfil the laws of the Levites?
How did he fulfil the laws of Niddah concerning women?
How did he fulfil the laws concerning going to war?

and I could go on but I think you should realize by now that he could not fulfill everything so what I posted before about where He said He came to fulfil all that was written about him, it is true, but that doesn't equate to all of the Torah.

Do you believe he was perfect, that he did not sin? If so how would you explain that the Torah contains this:


"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

So you are basically saying he did away with it, is that not the ultimate diminishing? And if he did indeed do this he would be in grave sin against G-d.

lulav,
1. I understood Messianic Judaism for Messianic jews as believing in the new covenant. Do you believe in the new covenant of the cross to attain to salvation? At the same time I do know that messianics can differ in certain beliefs just like orthodox or catholics.
2. Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi and I am not sure he performed any priestly functions.
3. I understand that jewish men and women perform somewhat differently because of the nature of their gender.
4. Jesus was not trying to go to war with anyone and it wasn't his position to. The reason the jews missed Jesus and rejected him was because they were anticipating the Revolutionary leader that would overthrow Rome and set up the kingdom alone. Jesus did offer them the kingdom but it was conditioned on obedience to the spiritual aspect of the kingdom of God. This is why he said Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. They were backslidden in their covenant and could not be blessed until they obeyed. They also missed the suffering savior who was to save them from their sin. After the future tribulation Israel will repent and will become a nation born in one day according to Isaiah 66:7-8.
Jesus fulfilled the law in teaching the Mosaic law but more in what the prophets said about him of things he did to fulfill. I gave you a few examples such as water baptism. Jesus said, John must baptize him to fulfill all righteousness which was of the law. Jesus lived and taught the law in its proper perspective and he kept the commandments of the Torah. If he did not he would have been judged for false doctrine.
5. Jesus knew no sin and that is why he was born sinless of the Holy Spirit and he had to be sinless in order to be the sinless sacrifice at Calvary. Do you believe in the death, burial, and resurrection?
Jesus did not destroy the law, he fulfilled it from the time he was born till the time he died. The law was only temporary till the seed should come. This shows that the law of Moses was temporary and would expire when it had run its course. By virtue of being temporary and expiring and satisfying its purpose and time it was abolished at Calvary not because Christ did it personally.
The law was forever for the Jews and it still is but according to the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant.
Jews and gentiles are both in the body of Christ today. A jew can still practice judaism culturally and as long as they don't do everything to try to attain to salvation. The old covenant was wrapped in the jews whole life but salvation is not in the types and shadows of the Mosaic law because the reality came and the law was fulfilled in him. He was the fullness of grace and truth and the sacrifice for redemption.
It would be more beneficial if you tell me what you believe about the new covenant and the difference between the old and new instead of trying to see if you can trip me up about your beliefs. Is that too much too ask for? God bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You follow those laws that apply to you. One of the laws that apply is that sacrifices are only offered at the temple. Since there is no temple, it would be unlawful to offer sacrifices anyplace else. It is not the case that Jews are "not really practicing Judaism" without the Temple. Daniel practiced Judaism fully in Babylon...no temple there.

open heart,
1. There are eternal laws in the old and new. The whole word is for us in its proper perspective.
2. I never said they couldn't practice Judaism now because culturally they can. The main thing is that they don't do it to attain to salvation and that they do them in the light of the new covenant. The old and new ethic is different. It was because of the weakness of the old commandment that the new ethic is built on better promises.
3. The law was holy and good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made them live life unto sin.
4. Christians whether jew or gentile need to know the difference of the two in order to live to their best of what Christ has provided in the cross. It has nothing to do with gentiles trying to convert jews or jews converting gentiles for we are one in Christ body.
5. This doesn't negate the calling of Israel for Paul said the gifts and calling are without repentance and the gentiles were grafted in and could end up in the same blindness as Israel if they get too stuck up with pride. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Really? So, what is all the law, since it is written on your heart, and it has to be the same as the law written on my heart and Lulav's and Visionary's, etc.? Since we don't need teachers any more, as he will teach us everything, when should we dismantle all the churches? So when did that new covenant go into effect?

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN YET.

pat34lee,
Actually, reading Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 he said he would put the laws on their heart or in their heart. The laws will be according to them believing in the Lord as Messiah. The first time they knew nothing about the death and resurrection so they were required to believe in the Messiah. The second time it appears the same way but they will most likely have the knowledge of the cross because they will look upon the one whom they pierced according to Revelation 1.
Israel will not need teachers anymore for the transformation because of the amount of light of knowing everything to rule and reign in the Kingdom of Heaven of which Israel will be at the head of the nations. Hebrews 8 is not speaking of the church today.
Paul listed teachers in the offices of the body of Christ. Just because we have received the benefits of the new covenant we have not learned everything. You are just thinking that if we have received the new covenant we know everything and that is not true. As I said, Hebrews 8 is not talking about the church.
The new covenant did happen at calvary and was made available to the whole world to choose.
However, the new covenant has not been chosen by the Israel as a nation. Zechariah says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will come through the fire for all Israel has to be saved.
In Jesus day some believed Jesus but it had to be the entirety of the nation of Israel to repent and not just a few. This is why Israel has not received the new covenant as a nation and will not until the tribulation when their national light will almost be snuffed out and Christ will come back and make them a nation born in one day. I hope this helps you. Jerry kelso