Was the Apostle Paul a supersessionist?

[richard373]

I’ll answer my own question and let others challenge it if they wish. It would be “Yes, but of the ‘soft’ or partial variety, particularly in view of his statement in Rom11:25,28” [For I would not wish brethren that you be ignorant of this mystery so as to become wise in your own conceits - that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the complement of the Gentiles has come in... Israel may still be enemies for the gospel’s sake but is (nevertheless) beloved by Yahweh for the sake of her ancestors]. I raise this question in the context of a book I have recently published - “The Fellowship of the Secret”. That writing was a result of a prophecy I received concerning the re-integration of churches that separated from each other at the Reformation but in the context of this forum also refers to the reconciliation of the Jewish fathers of the Faith with their Christian brethren, both reconciliations being made possible by a mutual acknowledgement of error. On Jewry’s part that was a failure to recognise the claims of the Nazarine Prophet and what the apostles subsequently taught about Him, whilst on the Church’s part it has been a failure to grasp what Paul was intimating in Ephesians3:8-11 concerning the “fellowship (or dispensation) of the secret” which I have come to understand is referring to the Church and gospel age, the nature of both having been hidden from previous generations (Rom16:25), even from the heavenly authorities themselves (Eph3:10 strictly Greek). This would support a literal reading of Rom11:11,12 &15, namely that fullness of salvation (through a mystical participation with Christ - Col1:26,27) had only been extended to the Gentiles as a result of Jewish disobedience. That has radical implications to overall providence (which I am raising in the "controversial theology forum) but it also challenges traditional “hard” replacement theology, i.e. the understanding that all the promises to the nation of Israel (God’s firstborn son – Ex4:22) have been superseded and made null and void by the establishment of the Church. My webpage [http://www.richardbarkerauthor.info.] explains in more detail what I’m intimating here - Happy to discuss the Jewish/RT aspects on this thread.

 

[Lulav]

I On Jewry’s part that was a failure to recognise the claims of the Nazarine Prophet and what the apostles subsequently taught about Him, whilst on the Church’s part it has been a failure to grasp what Paul was intimating in Ephesians3:8-11 concerning the “fellowship (or dispensation) of the secret” which I have come to understand is referring to the Church and gospel age, the nature of both having been hidden from previous generations (Rom16:25), even from the heavenly authorities themselves (Eph3:10 strictly Greek).

Shalom Richard,

If you read your bible carefully you will see that many Jews did come to belief in Yeshua as Messiah. Sadly because of competing sects they were basically wiped out and the Gentiles took over. Yeshua was remade into Jesus Christ and the Jews were abhorred for what they had done to their own Messiah, not the Gentiles and these Christian believers did not follow Jesus and his teachings of love and forgiveness, quite the opposite. If you haven't read the 'Early church fathers' you should.

And you think the only part the church needs to reconcile is a failure to grasp what Paul was teaching? That something hidden from all generations, and even the heavenly authorities had now come about? Don't you find that a bit to convenient? Where is the second witness to this? The Church has much to make amends about, starting with keeping the Jews from knowing their Messiah by their hatred of them, mistreatment, and murder.

 

[richard373]

Shalom Richard,

If you haven't read the 'Early church fathers' you should.

And you think the only part the church needs to reconcile is a failure to grasp what Paul was teaching? That something hidden from all generations, and even the heavenly authorities had now come about? Don't you find that a bit to convenient? Where is the second witness to this? The Church has much to make amends about, starting with keeping the Jews from knowing their Messiah by their hatred of them, mistreatment, and murder.

I certainly agree the Church has "much to make amends about"; I am seeking to challenge my fellow Christians to recognise there has been an historical error concerning what Paul is actually saying about the race of Israel, namely that they are Yahweh's first-choice people whom He has by no means forsaken but intends to fulfil His promises to them "once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom11:25). I assure you what I am saying will be anything but "convenient" if the Churches are to acknowledge such an error. I have certainly studied the early Fathers, it is partly why I became a Catholic. In contrast to those early Fathers you refer to my tradition has come to recognise its past errors in this respect - it no longer affirms "hard-supersessionism", acknowledging Yahweh's continuing love and good intentions towards Israel, His firstborn son (Ex4:22)

 

[Open Heart]

The Church has much to make amends about, starting with keeping the Jews from knowing their Messiah by their hatred of them, mistreatment, and murder.

Jews don't know Christ because God has placed a veil over their eyes for the sake of bringing in the Gentiles. Romans 11:28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake" Romans 11:8 "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

 

[Open Heart]

Israel may still be enemies for the gospel’s sake but is (nevertheless) beloved by Yahweh for the sake of her ancestors].

Indeed, part of the elect because of this love.

 

[Open Heart]

Romans 11;29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[visionary]

Jews don't know Christ because God has placed a veil over their eyes for the sake of bringing in the Gentiles. Romans 11:28 "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake" Romans 11:8 "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Gentiles are just now returning to the roots of Messiah Yeshua's faith... that is why MJ is gaining so much ground. The reason they are enemies for your sake is because of the traditions of Judaism that void the law. Who would think that the traditions of Christians doesn't also void the law of God? Since both parties are in the opposite ends of the same boat, I would say remove the traditions that void the Law of God and repent seeking His Way, His truth, His life... in all aspects.

 

[Open Heart]

The reason they are enemies for your sake is because of the traditions of Judaism that void the law.

Not for my sake, vis. Remember that I'm a Jew.
I can't think of any Jewish traditions that void the law. I'm not sure where you are coming from on this.

 

[visionary]

Not for my sake, vis. Remember that I'm a Jew.
I can't think of any Jewish traditions that void the law. I'm not sure where you are coming from on this.

Yeshua did and brought them up... they are there.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeshua did and brought them up... they are there.

Please give me some examples of traditions in Judaism that void the law. (You see, I don't think anything voids the law, and certainly not Judaism. You still have Jews following the Law.)

 

[visionary]

Please give me some examples of traditions in Judaism that void the law. (You see, I don't think anything voids the law, and certainly not Judaism. You still have Jews following the Law.)

Mat 15:3

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:6

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by yourtradition.
Mar 7:3

For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mar 7:13

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Open Heart]

Mat 15:3

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:6

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by yourtradition.
Mar 7:3

For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mar 7:13

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Okay, I see what you are saying. To me, they are simply disobeying the Torah. But the way it is worded, I can see why you conclude as you do. Thanks for the scriptures.

 

[visionary]

Okay, I see what you are saying. To me, they are simply disobeying the Torah. But the way it is worded, I can see why you conclude as you do. Thanks for the scriptures.

Exactly.. they are disobeying the Torah.. making the law void... so how else can the law be voided... like the Christians do with saying it not longer valid??

Please give me some examples of traditions in Judaism that void the law. (You see, I don't think anything voids the law, and certainly not Judaism. You still have Jews following the Law.)

 

[Open Heart]

Exactly.. they are disobeying the Torah.. making the law void... so how else can the law be voided... like the Christians do with saying it not longer valid??

when you disobey Torah, aka when you sin, it doesn't void Torah because part of Torah is what to do when you sin. A person can always repent etc. and return to Torah. That doesn't happen when Christians say it is no longer valid. For them the whole idea is never to return to Torah.

 

[Lulav]

It wasn't about them sinning, it was about them teaching others to neglect their parents in order to appear pious for donating to G-d, this is not what he wants or needs.

"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

• And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
• Then he said, "You skillfully sidestep God's law in order to hold on to your own tradition.
• And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
• And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
• He said to them, “Well you reject the commandment of God that you may establish your traditions.”

atheteó: to do away with what has been laid down, set aside, nullify, make void; to break faith

"For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';…but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'…you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

akuroó - I annul, make of no effect, cancel

Apparently they weren't teaching what Moses said and this is a biggie from those written in stone.

Today we would call that swindling.

 

[Truthfrees]

Mat 15:3

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:6

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by yourtradition.
Mar 7:3

For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Mar 7:13

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

These scriptures could apply to anyone (Christian or Jew) any time by adding or subtracting from YHWH's words.

 

[Truthfrees]

It wasn't about them sinning, it was about them teaching others to neglect their parents in order to appear pious for donating to G-d, this is not what he wants or needs.

"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

• And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
• Then he said, "You skillfully sidestep God's law in order to hold on to your own tradition.
• And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
• And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
• He said to them, “Well you reject the commandment of God that you may establish your traditions.”

atheteó: to do away with what has been laid down, set aside, nullify, make void; to break faith

"For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';…but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'…you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

akuroó - I annul, make of no effect, cancel

Apparently they weren't teaching what Moses said and this is a biggie from those written in stone.

Today we would call that swindling.

 

[visionary]

These scriptures could apply to anyone (Christian or Jew) any time by adding or subtracting from YHWH's words.

It doesn't diminish the problem.

 

[Truthfrees]

It doesn't diminish the problem.

True. It probably enlarges the problem.

It's an example of something everyone should guard against whether they belong to the named group or not.

 

[visionary]

Lulav... has it right.... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.