Acts 15:21 is often misused and misunderstood. A no spin zone thread!

[Frogster]

You are now engaging in some of the worst cherry-picking of verses I have ever witnessed, demonstrating that you have no clue what you are talking about. Try reading 10 or 15 verses before and after the single, conveniently-numbered sound bites you cite. Understanding them in the context of the message will, in every case, prove that you don't understand anything about them.

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Hebrews 7:18 The law says the all high priests are to come from the descendants of Aaron. However, we now have a high priest that is from the timeless order of Melchisedek. The weakness of men made it necessary that the Levitical priesthood be supplanted by a sinless high priest. Of course, the priesthood of Melchisedek is actually older, but that is another discussion entirely.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Hebrews 10:9 The first system of sacrifice for sin was the blood of bulls and goats. This first system was merely a place holder for the second system of sacrifice, which was the Messiah. Now that the second one has come, we don't need to rely on the first.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

2 Corinthians 3:13 The perfect law of YHWH is so glorious that Moses literally glowed when he received it. He had to cover his face with a veil so that the people could talk to him. The letter of the Law written in stone required the death of the violator. The Messiah has paid that price. We can now walk in the light of the Torah without condemnation. This new system is even more glorious than the old one. We can have all the benefits of obedience without the fear of the curse of the Law.
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 If you obey I will bless you. If you disobey I will curse you.
Galatians 3:8-14 YHWH knew in advance that he would redeem us from the curse of the Law so that we could receive the blessing of Abraham. The blessing comes from obeying his commandments. The curse is gone, but why not receive the blessing?
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Ephesians 2:15 We've gone over this. The Torah did not distinguish between Israel and the stranger who believed. The only distinction that kept them apart was man-made. The Greek word used here is dogma. The Pharisees amplified it by adding to the Torah. Paul is trying to reassure these people that any distinction that anyone tries to make has been broken down by the Messiah. That is the unifying effect of the Messiah's work. That is why Paul was sending them to synagogues to join congregations of Jewish believers in the Messiah. Messiah has made one new man out of two groups of people.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, PLUS THE BOOKS OF MOSES

Colossians 2:14 This one of your worst cherry-picking examples, and one that especially shows a failure to even compare it to the last thing you cited. To begin, "ordinances" is dogma. "Nomos" is the Torah. Dogma is used with regard to man-made civil law or the religious laws of the pagans. But, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, the Torah is not against us! David says the Torah is a lamp to his feet, the thing that makes him wiser than his enemies and his delight. How could something that shows you where to walk, makes you wise and is a delight be against you? It can't be. EXCEPT, if you do not obey it. But, let's go on...
Verses 16 and 17: the most abused verses in the entire Bible!
Through the entire chapter Paul has been warning them not to be judged by the pagans. And now he says , "don't let them judge you because you keep the Sabbath, the feasts of YHWH and his dietary laws." How do we know this is what he means? Because he says they are a shadow of things to come. The Sabbath and the feasts illustrate YHWH's plan of salvation! 2 Peter 3:8 The day of rest is the thousand year reign of the Messiah. IT IS THE 7TH MILLENIUM Any day picked by men CANNOT BE a shadow of things to come, because only YHWH's calendar is true.
READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER, THE BOOKS OF MOSES AND PSALM 119

It is time to put away the milk and get some meat.

You seem to think Jesus was lying when He said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." And, before you add "He fulfilled the Law so I don't have to..." offer ANY other literary context where fulfilling means abolishing. Can't be done.

bro, I have no ideas what you think you proved. What is all this? I see no rule of thought, it is just sort of ummm....whatever.

 

[Frogster]

James points out that the Christians are in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing scripture - Paul is not making that point in Acts 15 -- James is.

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

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The book of Acts shows both Jews AND Gentiles in the synagogues every Sabbath hearing scripture --

in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18.

This fact does not escape James' notice by way of helping with the "solution" in Acts 15.

in Christ,

Bob

Show me how those are Christians in Acts 13, 17, and 18, prior to the coming of Paul.

I have covered over and over, how the synagogues by 49 AD were in no way where Paul would want his disciples, james even said don't trouble them (green above), it is in your post. Well, what do you think would happen if Christians started going into hostile territory, where Judaizers were, the very thing Paul went to Jerusalem to fight off? lol! trouble, as James said!

Bro, do you see how my facts make sense? You're not giving me any history, or tangible things to go on, you just keep saying what you think it is in 14:21, but common sense, and historical knowledge are not in your posts about 15:21

Ok, now please show me how they were Christians in Acts 13, 17, and 18 prior to Paul's arrival. You posted it, lets see it, thanks!

 

[Frogster]

Yea, saying the word Gentile is what upset them...

I guess even the context of a single sentence has no value in your world, much less what is actually going on. That's pretty scary.

well, what upset them but the Gentile word? Gosh, the were freaking out thinking Paul brought a gentile into the temple, so it all fits, unless you can prove otherwise.

 

[Lulav]

bro, I have no ideas what you think you proved. What is all this? I see no rule of thought, it is just sort of ummm....whatever.

Huh, I had no trouble understanding what he posted, seemed clear cut to me.

 

[Lulav]

red above, the wall was the law.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

If the law were the wall, then why were Gentile G-d fearers in the synagogues ?

 

[Frogster]

Col 2;14, is clear, they were against us, and he is talking abou

Huh, I had no trouble understanding what he posted, seemed clear cut to me.

The enmity, is the law, Eph 2:15 is clear.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Just because it says ordinances, means little. Why were were we reconciled to God, because of the abolishment of just ordinances?

2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

When Paul uses reconcile, as he does in a few verses, it is not about just ordinances, it is about THE LAW! Were they reconciles because of serious trespasses, or some ordinance things in the verse below?

2 Cor 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

What were the evil deeds that they were reconciled from? Lets get past the ordinance word already.

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Eph 2:16 proves it, reconciled to God, not because of the abolishment of some ordinances! it was the law... lol

 

[Frogster]

If the law were the wall, then why were Gentile G-d fearers in the synagogues ?

With the hopes of converting them, ans some became converts. Jesus said you go over land and sea to make a disciple. But Christians would be a testimony against the Jews, big difference. The text is clear, the one new man, came after the abolishment of the enmity.

 

[Lulav]

With the hopes of converting them, ans some became converts. Jesus said you go over land and sea to make a disciple. But Christians would be a testimony against the Jews, big difference. The text is clear, the one new man, came after the abolishment of the enmity.

You are making even less sense than usual, isn't it past your bedtime?

 

[Frogster]

Huh, I had no trouble understanding what he posted, seemed clear cut to me.

Col 2 is about the law, the other member is wrong. Were we dead in ordinances? The legal demands, were the law, and trespasses there, is about the law, were we dead in ordinance trespasses? It says legal, that would be a word for the law.


Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

 

[Frogster]

You are making even less sense than usual, isn't it past your bedtime?

Oh come on, the Jews accepted the God fearers, some converted to judaism, you don't know that? Eph 2:15 is also about the Gentiles on a whole. please....

 

[Lulav]

Col 2;14, is clear, they were against us, and he is talking abou

The enmity, is the law, Eph 2:15 is clear.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Just because it says ordinances, means little. Why were were we reconciled to God, because of the abolishment of just ordinances?

2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

When Paul uses reconcile, as he does in a few verses, it is not about just ordinances, it is about THE LAW! Were they reconciles because of serious trespasses, or some ordinance things in the verse below?

2 Cor 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

What were the evil deeds that they were reconciled from? Lets get past the ordinance word already.

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Eph 2:16 proves it, reconciled to God, not because of the abolishment of some ordinances! it was the law... lol

Yet Paul said this:

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God

 

[Lulav]

Col 2 is about the law, the other member is wrong. Were we dead in ordinances? The legal demands, were the law, and trespasses there, is about the law, were we dead in ordinance trespasses? It says legal, that would be a word for the law.


Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Hah, everyone is wrong that doesn't agree with you.

 

[Frogster]

Yet Paul said this:

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God

But the enmity in 2:15 was the law, fact.

 

[Frogster]

Hah, everyone is wrong that doesn't agree with you.

well, were we dead in some ordinances, or is trespasses about something more?

 

[Frogster]

You are making even less sense than usual, isn't it past your bedtime?

Yes, I need to take my night time........

 

[Lulav]

Oh come on, the Jews accepted the God fearers, some converted to judaism, you don't know that? Eph 2:15 is also about the Gentiles on a whole. please....

Do you?

I asked you how the 'law' could be the enmity between Jew and Gentile if the Gentiles were actually in the synagogues learning about G-d and his laws?

 

[Lulav]

well, were we dead in some ordinances, or is trespasses about something more?

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

How did he forgive us?


14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


He is obvlisly speaking to gentiles here as he says 'You were dead in your sin and your uncircumsicion of your flesh'

All gentiles at the time (outside of G-d fearers and proselytes) were heathen idolaters. Which means they were all sinning against the one True G-d.

The wages of sin is death, there is a record kept on everyone, Paul is explaining that when you believe in G-d and his son and turn from your sin you are forgiven for your past sins and your debt is cancelled. He is not saying that G-ds law went away.

 

[Lulav]

Yes, I need to take my night time........

Nighty night froggie, sleep well, live to fight another day!

 

[Frogster]

Do you?

I asked you how the 'law' could be the enmity between Jew and Gentile if the Gentiles were actually in the synagogues learning about G-d and his laws?

I covered that..lets not act like the few God fearers were in the millions! Of course the Jews wanted converts, i covered that, but those were not Christian gentiles anyway.

If a God fearer started to disagree with a jew in the synagogue, about the law, what would happen, enmity, or a big hug form the synagogue people? hehehe..I proved it right there!

What you can't do is refute the obvious.

Look again.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

[Frogster]

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

How did he forgive us?


14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


He is obvously speaking to gentiles here as he says 'You were dead in your sin and your uncircumsicion of your flesh'

All gentiles at the time (outside of G-d fearers and proselytes) were heathen idolaters. Which means they were all sinning against the one True G-d.

The wages of sin is death, there is a record kept on everyone, Paul is explaining that when you believe in G-d and his son and turn from your sin you are forgiven for your past sins and your debt is cancelled. He is not saying that G-ds law went away.

Frog green above, You forgot the "with" word, the legal decrees went with it, to the cross...with...with...

Jews were dead too, and besides, there were Jews in Ephesus, and Col also. They were not that far apart.


Paul was in the we, the Jews were in the same boat, even as the others..Jews and Greeks all under sin, Rom 3.



Eph 3:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.