How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[keith99]

In other words they were given an "out" from circumcision. It seems that at the very least the dietary laws still held.

Nope the dietary laws are clearly no longer applicable.

Mark 7:18-19

And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

 

[RickG]

Creationism talks about where the sin came from.

In the past Creationism was relative to fundamentalism. Over the past 30 years of so, Creationism has taken on the persona of "Creation Science". In discussion here in the CF Science Forums, when one speaks of Creationism or Creationists, it is a direct reference to the misrepresented science that is presented by "Creationist" organizations such as, AiG, Discovery Inst., CRS, CSE, ICR, etc.......

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope the dietary laws are clearly no longer applicable.

Mark 7:18-19

And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

But of course Jesus contradicted himself:

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Since even Jesus could have been said to be on both sides of Old Testament laws one is forced to pick and choose which verses one believes in.

 

[bhsmte]

Nope the dietary laws are clearly no longer applicable.

Mark 7:18-19

And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

All the fast food chains, just breathed a collectively sigh of relief.

 

[bhsmte]

In the past Creationism was relative to fundamentalism. Over the past 30 years of so, Creationism has taken on the persona of "Creation Science". In discussion here in the CF Science Forums, when one speaks of Creationism or Creationists, it is a direct reference to the misrepresented science that is presented by "Creationist" organizations such as, AiG, Discovery Inst., CRS, CSE, ICR, etc.......

And a very interesting bunch they are.

 

[keith99]

I doubt Creationism plays much of a role at all. the evidence would suggest that the largest losses are to denominations that fully accept evolutionary theory. Doubtful that anyone left those churches due to Creationism. Someone earlier pointed out that there are many reasons people leave a religious denomination most of those are just simply not inspired by their former religious leaders or they disagree with new doctrine or new liturgical settings. People leave for frivolous or serious reasons but Creationism is not anywhere near the top of the lisrt. In the last hour I would be surprised if anyone in particular was persuaded to leave their religious faith behind simply because of Creationsim. they might change denominations for that or become unaffiliated with a denomination but dumping faith for unbelief is usually based upon something more basic to the human psyche than how and when the universe came into existence.

Have you considered that creationism serves an a magnifying mirror in some ways?

Creationists claim they are the true Christians, that others differ from them because of lack of faith, no real relationship with God. They say they have the correct interpretation of difficult passages of Scripture.

But it is obvious to everyone outside of their circle that they lack even the most basic understanding of the physical world.

Now what happens when instead of careful and detailed exegesis when a young person asks if perhaps their Church has things wrong they instead get the 'relationship with Jesus' or lack of faith answers?

Might a young adult suddenly realize that their Church might just look as silly to others as creationism does to them? And once the veil is removed they will start to notice just how much doctrine has little support.

One should also look to how many Churches treat outsiders, especially those like gays or atheists. And make no mistake, young adults will see the actions over the words from the pulpit. If what is said is fine but what the people do is not the young will see that and judge by the fruits. And good for the young on this. But here again creationists and other fundies play a part in opening the eyes. What they might not see clearly in their Church they will in other more extreme Churches. And one day they realize that in many ways they are not that different.

Some will stay and work to change their Church, others will leave. And eventually those in the first group will get tired of trying, especially when they are the ones who are like Christ and keep getting told they are the problem.

 

[keith99]

But of course Jesus contradicted himself:

Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Since even Jesus could have been said to be on both sides of Old Testament laws one is forced to pick and choose which verses one believes in.

The usual resolution is that 'everything is accomplished' came to pass with the resurrection.

But it would seem Jesus made all things clean even before that.

And this seems rather different than a rounding 'error' related to measurements or some non-central thought.

 

[Blue Wren]

Here's one list. You can find more by listening to evolution being discussed at many of the more fundamentalist churches.

• Evolution has no scientific support.
• There are no transitional forms in the fossil record.
• Evolution denies the existence of God.
• Evolution teaches that we are mere animals and therefore it is responsible for all evil.
• Evolution is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics.
• Creationism is recognized as legitimate science by many leading scientists.
• Evolution science is a mindless religion.
• The speed of light has been slowing down
• The earth's magnetic field has been continuously decaying
• Scientific evidence supporting evolution has been dishonestly fabricated

Big Lies of Creationism

I was shown a biology textbook, written by a creationist, for creationist home school, and the sites ICR. This list of lies, they are true, from what I've seen.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The reason I left church: those in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity have an absolute lack of curiosity about the universe, absolute certainty about everything they believe (you will never hear the words 'I could be wrong'), a magical worldview, renunciation of reason....

You get the picture.

 

[sfs]

Christianity is about what Jesus did to remove sin.
Creationism talks about where the sin came from.
So what point is there for Jesus if there is no sin?
What point is there for Christianity if the bible is wrong and there is no sin?

Creationism is one explanation for where the sin came from. It's there regardless of whether that explanation is correct or not.

But you didn't answer my question: How did you choose what parts of the Bible to believe?

 

[Willtor]

Have you considered that creationism serves an a magnifying mirror in some ways?

Creationists claim they are the true Christians, that others differ from them because of lack of faith, no real relationship with God. They say they have the correct interpretation of difficult passages of Scripture.

But it is obvious to everyone outside of their circle that they lack even the most basic understanding of the physical world.

Now what happens when instead of careful and detailed exegesis when a young person asks if perhaps their Church has things wrong they instead get the 'relationship with Jesus' or lack of faith answers?

Might a young adult suddenly realize that their Church might just look as silly to others as creationism does to them? And once the veil is removed they will start to notice just how much doctrine has little support.

Wow. This response bears striking similarity to St. Augustine's comments on the literal interpretation of Genesis. He was also especially concerned about non-Christians hearing absurdities spouted by naive Christians who were ostensibly giving the meaning of Scripture. In his day, it was the shape of the Earth, of course. But evolution is all more of the same. And tomorrow it will be something else.

One should also look to how many Churches treat outsiders, especially those like gays or atheists. And make no mistake, young adults will see the actions over the words from the pulpit. If what is said is fine but what the people do is not the young will see that and judge by the fruits. And good for the young on this. But here again creationists and other fundies play a part in opening the eyes. What they might not see clearly in their Church they will in other more extreme Churches. And one day they realize that in many ways they are not that different.

Some will stay and work to change their Church, others will leave. And eventually those in the first group will get tired of trying, especially when they are the ones who are like Christ and keep getting told they are the problem.

* Lime-ation, mine.

This is, I think, right at the core of the issue. There are too many "thems" and "their evil agendas" and how "they need to be stopped." This is why there is lying for Jesus.

Once upon a time, the Church stood with the poor and the oppressed; it didn't grind them into the ground. Jesus stood with them, and the Church really believed it was his body and so it ought to do likewise. That was a long time ago, though. Now the Church is bourgeois. It's all about protecting the Church's position in society against all comers. But Jesus didn't seek status. I don't see why we should. Status has changed us -- not for the better.

I have faith that Truth prevails. When you say that the first group (those who try to reform their churches) will give up, I think you are right, but I don't think they will give up Jesus. The Church will continue into the future, but it may look very different, and (at least for a time) will be very much smaller. This is all for its benefit, of course, as it loses the cruft it's acquired: creationism and other anti-intellectual ideas, xenophobias, the use of force in achieving its goals, and a number of other vices that have crept in over the centuries.

Of course, I could be wrong about Jesus being, himself, the Truth. Then the Church may not survive (and it really shouldn't if he isn't). But I think he is. And so I have faith. I'm hopeful that the future Dietrich Bonhoeffers, Desmond Tutus, and Mother Teresas of the world find each other and want to build a community.

 

[Davian]

I think the real reason for this is not that Creationism drives them away

Creationists Drive Young People Out Of The Church

but that they don't have a real relationship with God

I have yet to meet anyone that can demonstrate such a thing.

and have no other avenue in which to understand or know God.

You could simply imagine that you "know" this "God".

If you don't know that God exists it is all useless anyway.

And if God is only a character in a book it is all useless anyway.

The Bible warns in the end days that there will be a falling away.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I have no concerns of what the Bible purports to say in the absence of evidence that it comports with reality.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Excellent OP/Thread

I would imagine that most posters (YEC) we encounter here have little to no background in any physical science and are more than willing to follow and spread the claims put out by Creationist organizations for no other reason that hearing what they want to hear.

If I had no background and/or experience in science I too would probably be caught up in this conformation bias. Fortunately though (Thank God)I do have a considerable academic background and professional experience in the Earth Sciences and Chemistry. Thus it is easy for me to "fact check" information put out by those creationist organizations. What I find is appalling. That is, a lot of "confirmation bias" by "non-professionals", in the area(s) they write about. Additionally, those who actually have "associated" credentials and experience in the areas they write about, I see "Intellectual Dishonesty". The difference between the two is that the latter actually know that their claims are far from scholarly work. That is they only use information that seems to support their position, while ignoring everything that does not.

No wonder Christians are leaving the faith, if Christians have to deliberately misrepresent and lie to support their faith, what credibility does that faith have?

If you have the time and interest perhaps you could give some advice to this Creationist college student considering a major in Earth Sciences:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7877201/

I agree that this is an excellent OP topic. I had exams today and am mega tired and brain drained so I'm not writing much more about it now.

 

[justlookinla]

As many of us here know, Barna research* has shown that the denial of scientific data about reality is one of main reasons ex-Christians give for why they left Christianity. A major (perhaps biggest) source of this reality denial in churches is creationism.

Now we have data as to how many people are leaving Christianity in the US.

It turns out to be over 1% , or over 3 million people each year. That's nearly 10,000 each day, or 366 per hour - about a person every 10 seconds. In the time it took you to read this far, another 5 people left their church, never to return. Christians lose ground, 'nones' soar in new portrait of US religion - Religion News Service

Creationism is, of course, only part of why they leave. But how big a part, on average? If it's only 10%, then that's still about 40 people a day leaving due to creationism. If creationism makes up most of the reason, then that could be as high as hundreds of people a day.

What do you think? You can vote for your estimate.

In Christ-

Papias

*Barna data says that around 25% cite this as a reason they left - among teens. https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church

For couple of thousand years, the teaching of creationism increased the church from relative handful to billions of adherents. Not a bad track record.

Now, why do folks 'leave church'? They respond to the spirit of the adversary of God instead of the Spirit of God. Been that way for a very very very very long time now, nothing complicated about that.

 

[Strathos]

I'm not sure, but this new forum overhaul is going to drive me away from the forums for good. I can't stand it.

 

[Messy]

I'm not sure, but this new forum overhaul is going to drive me away from the forums for good. I can't stand it.

That's evolution.

 

[juvenissun]

I'll restate an earlier comment I made you may have missed. "If one has to misrepresent science to support one's religious beliefs, then what does that say about those beliefs?"

I guess you are saying that science is MORE important than faith. Suit yourself.

 

[RickG]

I guess you are saying that science is MORE important than faith. Suit yourself.

I am saying just the opposite juve. A faith that has to make stuff up and deliberately misrepresent science shows that the people doing that have abandoned their faith. Creation science is not another opinion. It is deliberate misrepresentation.

 

[bhsmte]

I am saying just the opposite juve. A faith that has to make stuff up and deliberately misrepresent science shows that the people doing that have abandoned their faith. Creation science is not another opinion. It is deliberate misrepresentation.

Some people's faith is built upon this misrepresentation. Typically your fundies and or black and white thinkers.

They really have no choice, but to misrepresent well evidenced science that goes against their beliefs, as the belief will be protected at all costs.

 

[Papias]

What does it matter?
Hopefully we are about the truth of the Bible, not a numbers game.

You are contradicting Jesus himself.

Jesus said:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.....​

Mt 28:19

Note that Jesus did not say: Go therefore and drive away disciples, by idolizing one interpretation of Genesis .............

Jesus said His words would be confusing except for those who are truly believers.

I'm not sure about how we are each interpreting that verse. Which verse do you mean?


In Christ -

Papias