Paul fought the circumcision, Messianic Judaism.

[listed]

Jesus was talking to the church magesterium of his day - and Paul was talking to both gentiles and Jews -- and on trial - in Acts 21-28.

Both of them affirm torah-observant positions.

Both of them claim to be Jews.

Both of them refuse the fluff and puffery sorts of made-up commandments of men - yet both affirm God's Word and that the Bible is not being made up of that sort of thing at all.

in Christ,

Bob

How does this affect Gentiles?

 

[listed]

Which is the magisterium of the one true nation Church started by God at Sinai - with God appointed priesthood and God appointed succession of high priests - and God appointed infallible scripture.

I don't claim they were the christian church magisterium - but rather the magesterium that existed in His day - of His own church -- the one He started at Sinai.

in Christ,

Bob

Unsupportable hogwash.

 

[MoreCoffee]

He does not quote because it makes his point invalid.

It leaves me wondering how a doctrine handed down within a denomination can be so overpowering that it makes reading the bible for what it says almost impossible. Acts chapter twenty one is not intended to teach anybody to follow the law and keep the customary practises of first century Jews.

(Acts 21:20-25) 20 After hearing this, they began to glorify God, but they said to him: “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumoured about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or to follow the customary practices. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? They are certainly going to hear that you have arrived. 23 So do what we tell you: We have four men who have put themselves under a vow. 24 Take these men with you and cleanse yourself ceremonially together with them and take care of their expenses, so that they may have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to the rumours they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly and you are also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent them our decision in writing that they should keep away from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.”​

 

[listed]

fine - magisterium it is Acts 7 -- and so in every way in Mark 7:6-13 and was slammed by Christ "sola scriptura" for setting aside one of the Ten Commandments - the moral law of God binding on all mankind.

Jesus was talking to the church magesterium of his day - and Paul was talking to both gentiles and Jews -- and on trial - in Acts 21-28.

Both of them affirm torah-observant positions.

Both of them claim to be Jews.

Both of them refuse the fluff and puffery sorts of made-up commandments of men - yet both affirm God's Word and that the Bible is not being made up of that sort of thing at all.

Paul is not promoting the law nor Judaism in Acts 21-28.

 

[listed]

My quotes span 7 chapters to point to Paul's self-proclaimed actual practice when it comes to Paul - and Messianic Jews.

If you want to point out an instruction for Messianic Jews in Acts 21:25 - I think you will find that nothing there changes the truth about what Paul says his own practice is regarding the Law of God --

Just as we saw here --

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
[/FONT]

And your sole purpose is to prove we are obligated to the law against the writings of Paul.

 

[listed]

It leaves me wondering how a doctrine handed down within a denomination can be so overpowering that it makes reading the bible for what it says almost impossible. Acts chapter twenty one is not intended to teach anybody to follow the law and keep the customary practises of first century Jews.

(Acts 21:20-25) 20 After hearing this, they began to glorify God, but they said to him: “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumoured about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or to follow the customary practices. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? They are certainly going to hear that you have arrived. 23 So do what we tell you: We have four men who have put themselves under a vow. 24 Take these men with you and cleanse yourself ceremonially together with them and take care of their expenses, so that they may have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to the rumours they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly and you are also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent them our decision in writing that they should keep away from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.”​

That is what the religious do.

And with this post I am out of time for today.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

And your sole purpose is to prove we are obligated to the law against the writings of Paul.

My sole purpose is to show what the Bible says is the content of Paul's practice and teaching - where HE himself gives his own teaching and explains his own position before both gentiles and Jews.

Those who imagine that his testimony is against his letters to the churches because his letters are bent by some to oppose what he claims he is doing and teaching - are using a form of logic that I am not familiar with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening


[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]It leaves me wondering how a doctrine handed down within a denomination can be so overpowering that it makes reading the bible for what it says almost impossible.[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]y[FONT=&quot]our response to the bible details raised illustrates [FONT=&quot]a certain point that I[FONT=&quot] would agree with.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

MoreCoffee asks about Acts 21 and specifically 21:25 to which we have this Bible answer.

The post that asks us not to talk about Paul's own practice or how it fit in with the Messianic Jews - will often stick to "Let's just talk about gentiles instead" -- and avoid entirely the actual testimony of Paul regarding his own practice

Such as we find here in Acts 21 - in the actual Bible testimony Paul gives in Acts 21-28

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on Acts 21:25 - find that there gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neigbhor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25.

Rather what we have there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”

After that point - I don't find any post following that addresses this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

Paul is not promoting the law nor Judaism in Acts 21-28.

exactly, it is sooooo clear that you're right too!

 

[Frogster]

Excellent response.

Thanks, and Bob ignored it too, because it is clear, paul was no messianic, and he was no longer a pharisee.

 

[Frogster]

Paul's argument in Acts 21-28 is that he is a torah observant Jew who like all Pharisees accepts the doctrine of the resurrection and in this case a messianic Jew that also accepts that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.. the Jewish Messiah long hoped for long promised.

in Christ,

Bob

you did not answer the question, was the hope of the 12 tribes the law, or the resurrection?

you ignored the clear facts of Phil 3. It was flesh and poop in Phil 3. Now why would a pharisee say that? And how could a messianic Jew, be around his converts, and be a pharisee? Do you realize what you're trying to tell us here?!

So why keep arguing?

 

[Frogster]

My quotes span 7 chapters to point to Paul's self-proclaimed actual practice when it comes to Paul - and Messianic Jews.

If you want to point out an instruction for Messianic Jews in Acts 21:25 - I think you will find that nothing there changes the truth about what Paul says his own practice is regarding the Law of God --

Just as we saw here --

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
[/FONT]

how come you underline law and Prophets, but you don't show what paul was talking about, in the law and the Prophets, meaning the OT?


Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.


You ignore context, and what he was talking about, so go ahead, underline it, make it red, but the facts stand, paul was using the OT about the resurrection, not law promotion. You quote 24:14, BUT YOU LEAVE OUT 24:15! 15 shows what he was referring to, in the OT.


No, Paul did not steal, or commit adultery, either do I we get that already, but you are ignoring alot in Acts.

 

[Frogster]

My quotes span 7 chapters to point to Paul's self-proclaimed actual practice when it comes to Paul - and Messianic Jews.

If you want to point out an instruction for Messianic Jews in Acts 21:25 - I think you will find that nothing there changes the truth about what Paul says his own practice is regarding the Law of God --

Just as we saw here --

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Was Acts 23 about the law. or the resurrection?

6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”



8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee asks about Acts 21 and specifically 21:25 to which we have this Bible answer.

...
And those who want to just focus on Acts 21:25 - find that there gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neigbhor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25.

Rather what we have there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”

After that point - I don't find any post following that addresses this point.

in Christ,

Bob

That's correct BobRyan, Acts 21:25 does not repeat every command given by the Lord Jesus Christ but it does answer the specific question raised in Acts chapter twenty one; namely do gentiles need to observe the law and the customary practises of the Pharisees or not and the answer is a resounding NO!

Since Christians need not observe Pharisee customary practises such as refraining from pork, shell fish, and crustaceans and since Christians need not observe the civil laws of ancient Israel nor the religious laws of that ancient people why do you keep thrusting these things forward as if they were an obligation for Christians?

 

[Frogster]

Bob Ryan, Paul said several times, he was there because of the resurrection.

That is a fact.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 17 quote of scripture -- deleted

 

[Frogster]

Acts 17
Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women. 5 But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the market place, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people.


10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. 13But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols. 17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day

...

32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, “We shall hear you again concerning this.” 33 So Paul went out of their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

what does this have to do with my thread topic?

I don't appreciated spamming, the constant repetition of verses, that offer no explanation, I just keep seeing verses, often repeated over and over again, highlighted in red. That is not debating it is spamming. Please stop, thank you, frog..

 

[BobRyan]

what does this have to do with my thread topic?

.

I must have had two threads open at once and saved to the wrong thread.

I can understand that you would not want Acts 17 here.

 

[BobRyan]

MoreCoffee asks about Acts 21 and specifically 21:25 to which we have this Bible answer.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

The post that asks us not to talk about Paul's own practice or how it fit in with the Messianic Jews - will often stick to "Let's just talk about gentiles instead" -- and avoid entirely the actual testimony of Paul regarding his own practice

Such as we find here in Acts 21 - in the actual Bible testimony Paul gives in Acts 21-28

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on Acts 21:25 - find that there gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neigbhor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25.

Rather what we have there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
​

After that point - I don't find any post following that addresses this point.

That's correct BobRyan, Acts 21:25 does not repeat every command given by the Lord Jesus Christ

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

but it does answer the specific question raised in Acts chapter twenty one;

The question raised in Acts 21 is - what is Paul's own practice and what is he teaching Jewish Christians.

As we saw here -


20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.


And as we saw here

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

namely do gentiles need to observe the law and the customary practises of the Pharisees or not and the answer is a resounding NO!

That is the question for Acts 15:1 -- it is not the question here --


, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.


For in Acts 21 it is Paul's own practice AND his teaching to CHRISTIAN Jews that is being scrutinized.

Sort of like the title of this thread.

As noted earlier - the point remains.

in Christ,

Bob