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Paul fought the circumcision, Messianic Judaism.

BobRyan

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Jesus was talking to Jews under law, and besides, show 1 post here where anyone here said to go out and steal or something like that. This post holds no weight.

On the contrary that post demonstrates how it is that Christ condemns fluff and puffery -- making stuff up- among the magesterium of His day just as Paul would do after the cross.

No change.

Thus Paul's affirmations of and clarifications of his own teaching in Acts 21-28 make the point perfectly clear and consistent with that of Christ before the cross.

the point remains.

It is -- irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Frogster

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When the claim that says Acts 21-28 is perfectly clear is followed by complaints about clear quotes from Acts 21-28 -- the logic used in such action is "illusive" to the reader.

So in all afforts to re-interpret re-explain Acts 21-28 by the tactic of avoiding Acts 21-28 -- I try to bring the posts back to a focus on the actual text being "explained" -




The facts in Acts 21-28 are showing IN Acts 21-28 ... as it turns out




I find your logic 'illusive' just then.

in Christ,

Bob

no, you are ignoring the context, paul was about the resurrection.

Was the law the hope of the 12 tribes?:confused:

26:7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king! 8 Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead?
 
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Frogster

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On the contrary that post demonstrates how it is that Christ condemns fluff and puffery -- making stuff up- among the magesterium of His day just as Paul would do after the cross.

No change.

Thus Paul's affirmations of and clarifications of his own teaching in Acts 21-28 make the point perfectly clear and consistent with that of Christ before the cross.

the point remains.

It is -- irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

who was Jesus stalking to?
 
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BobRyan

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no, you are ignoring the context, paul was about the resurrection.

Was the law the hope of the 12 tribes?:confused:

26:7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king! 8 Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead?

Paul's argument in Acts 21-28 is that he is a torah observant Jew who like all Pharisees accepts the doctrine of the resurrection and in this case a messianic Jew that also accepts that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.. the Jewish Messiah long hoped for long promised.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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who was Jesus stalking to?

Jesus was talking to the church magesterium of his day - and Paul was talking to both gentiles and Jews -- and on trial - in Acts 21-28.

Both of them affirm torah-observant positions.

Both of them claim to be Jews.

Both of them refuse the fluff and puffery sorts of made-up commandments of men - yet both affirm God's Word and that the Bible is not being made up of that sort of thing at all.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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MoreCoffee

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Jesus was talking to the church magesterium of his day ...

That's incorrect. The Lord was speaking to the Jews ([In Mark chapter seven] leaders of the Jewish people, specifically). They were a magisterium but not of the Christian church.
 
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BobRyan

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That's incorrect. The Lord was speaking to the Jews ([In Mark chapter seven] leaders of the Jewish people

Which is the magisterium of the one true nation Church started by God at Sinai - with God appointed priesthood and God appointed succession of high priests - and God appointed infallible scripture.

I don't claim they were the christian church magisterium - but rather the magesterium that existed in His day - of His own church -- the one He started at Sinai.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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MoreCoffee

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Which is the magisterium of the one true nation Church started by God at Sinai

...

The church in the wilderness was the nation of Israel according to holy scripture (Acts 7:38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us) but that isn't the same thing as "the Jews" spoken of in the four gospels.
 
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BobRyan

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fine - magisterium it is Acts 7 -- and so in every way in Mark 7:6-13 and was slammed by Christ "sola scriptura" for setting aside one of the Ten Commandments - the moral law of God binding on all mankind.

Jesus was talking to the church magesterium of his day - and Paul was talking to both gentiles and Jews -- and on trial - in Acts 21-28.

Both of them affirm torah-observant positions.

Both of them claim to be Jews.

Both of them refuse the fluff and puffery sorts of made-up commandments of men - yet both affirm God's Word and that the Bible is not being made up of that sort of thing at all.
 
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BobRyan

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Why do your posts always fail to quote Acts 21:25? I added the missing verse (in red text). Let people see the passage properly. It isn't advocacy for Messianic Judaism and it isn't pro LAW.

My quotes span 7 chapters to point to Paul's self-proclaimed actual practice when it comes to Paul - and Messianic Jews.

If you want to point out an instruction for Messianic Jews in Acts 21:25 - I think you will find that nothing there changes the truth about what Paul says his own practice is regarding the Law of God --

Just as we saw here --

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21

[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
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BobRyan

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The post that asks us not to talk about Paul's own practice or how it fit in with the Messianic Jews - will often stick to "Let's just talk about gentiles instead" -- and avoid entirely the actual testimony of Paul regarding his own practice

Such as we find here in Acts 21 - in the actual Bible testimony Paul gives in Acts 21-28

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on Acts 21:25 - find that there gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neigbhor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25.

Rather what we have there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
 
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The post that asks us not to talk about Paul's own practice or how it fit in with the Messianic Jews - will often stick to "Let's just talk about gentiles instead" -- and avoid entirely the actual testimony of Paul regarding his own practice

Such as we find here in Acts 21 - in the actual Bible testimony Paul gives in Acts 21-28

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on Acts 21:25 - find that there gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neigbhor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25.

Rather what we have there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
If you do not wish to talk about how this affects Gentiles nothing you have to say is germane to us. We knew that all along and have shown you so. Thanks for letting us off of the law.
 
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I am glad you agree with me, that the simple facts are as follows.

Paul for the most part, knew he was there because he preached the resurrection, that was why they hated him, so they trumped up a false charge about bringing a Greek into the temple, to which Paul defended himself against that charge, and was proved right.

Did Paul say in 1 Cor 9, he became as Jew for the gospel, to those under law? Yes, so likewise because they said Paul was preaching "sin to get grace", as per Rom 3:8, and the questions in Rom 6:1, and 6:15 which show that Paul knew they thought that about him, Paul became as a Jew took the vow to shut up his accusers, and also helped James, as James had helped Paul in Acts 15.


There you have it, that's all that was really going on in upper Acts, Paul was not there promoting law, law was not the hope of the 12 tribes in Acts 26, the resurrection was. That is why he talked about it before his judges.

Violation of the law is not necessary to need grace (redemption). Redemption was promised prior to the law. Gen 3:15
 
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Turns out - what is said IN Acts 21-28 is found IN Acts 21-28... so then we expect to see texts from Acts 21-28 quoted when that is actually the focus of the post.


The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob
Unfortunately you refuse to consider any of the rest of the Scripture to arrive at your understanding. You seem to think your material never has any relationship to the rest of Scripture. You divorce selected quotes from context of total Scripture.
 
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What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

Clearly Paul was a Messianic Jew.

One who repeatedly declared himself to be a Jew - and who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob
Sure when you plug your ears to the rest of Scripture. You can not show us we are obligated to the law with any select passage in the New Testament.
 
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The more expanded version of that post goes something like this --

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.




================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Paul was not telling Jews to forsake their customs. He did however show them they were no longer obligated to do so in order to possess salvation (accept the Messiah as Savior). This is why the argument went against the Pharisees in Acts 15. Keeping the law is not a requirement of salvation as witnessed and testified about by Peter.
 
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Having said that - Paul would condemn fluff and puffery sorts of made up traditions of the magesterium - just as did Christ, while still affirming the actual moral law of God - and valid statements made by religious leaders.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT=&quot]es and ph[FONT=&quot]arise[FONT=&quot]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;

and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
[/FONT]
Your continued condemnation of us does not bother me. I understand your game of manipulation.
 
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How can you just keep repeating this, once you have seen the facts?

you can post it 100 times, but everyone knows better.


Paul called it flesh, and poop!:D




Phil 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
:amen: Excellent response.
 
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When the claim that says Acts 21-28 is perfectly clear is followed by complaints about clear quotes from Acts 21-28 -- the logic used in such action is "illusive" to the reader.

So in all afforts to re-interpret re-explain Acts 21-28 by the tactic of avoiding Acts 21-28 -- I try to bring the posts back to a focus on the actual text being "explained" -




The facts in Acts 21-28 are showing IN Acts 21-28 ... as it turns out




I find your logic 'illusive' just then.

in Christ,

Bob
His logic is only illusive to the blind and unbelieving.
 
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Why do your posts always fail to quote Acts 21:25? I added the missing verse (in red text). Let people see the passage properly. It isn't advocacy for Messianic Judaism and it isn't pro LAW.

He does not quote because it makes his point invalid.
 
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