Paul fought the circumcision, Messianic Judaism.

[BobRyan]

This was written in the NT.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

This thread is about saint Paul's battle against a Torah observing party within the early church.

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.

20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

1. They are Jews.
2. They are believers.
3. they are "zealous for the Law"

And so also are the disciples - the Apostles are all in that category.

If they were Jews then they would not be in the Church.

I find your logic "illusive" given that actual content of chapter 21.

If they were Christians they would not be advocating Torah observance.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

However in the case of Acts 21 we have --

24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

BOTH James AND Paul are attracted to that desire "result" - they BOTH view it as such a desired outcome that the plan, the solution proposed ... is accepted.

If they were Jews who entered into the church to propagate Judaism then they were what Paul was fighting against.

Your argument is "with the text" apparently.

It appears that you wish to join them in their accusation against Paul rather than join in Paul's defense. You seem to imply that Paul should have strongly affirmed the accusation against him.

That would be a "sign" that something is amiss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

For those who want to escape the Acts 21 point about Paul and the Jews we have ...

This switch to Gal 4 -- Paul vs the gentiles in Galatia -



They were returning to pagan practices 'again" says Paul.

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
============================

Paganism

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

The "return AGAIN" to paganism. Not in full but in some pagan practices9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?


The specific pagan practice pointed out - the mere observance of which causes the loss of salvation.

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

By contrast to the "pagan" observance in Gal 4 we have the NON Pagan observances in Rom 14 where no one is to be condemned if they do or do not choose to observe these opitonal - annual holy days in the list of God ordained annual feast days of Lev 23.

A perfect contrast.

In Gal 4 - the pagan days - one is condemned for even observing one.

In Rom 14 the God ordained days - no one is to be condemned for observing ALL of them alike.

Now back to Paul vs the jews -- Acts 21.

in Christ,

Bob

return again to a stoicheion...

Why does he says AGAIN here about Judaism when they were never Jews?

Gal 5:For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.


so now you have 2 questions to answer.

How can they go in 2 different directions, and why does it say again, in 5;1, when they were never jews, circumcised?

 

[Frogster]

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.

20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

1. They are Jews.
2. They are believers.
3. they are "zealous for the Law"

And so also are the disciples - the Apostles are all in that category.





I find your logic "illusive" given that actual content of chapter 21.





"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

However in the case of Acts 21 we have --

24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

BOTH James AND Paul are attracted to that desire "result" - they BOTH view it as such a desired outcome that the plan, the solution proposed ... is accepted.



Your argument is "with the text" apparently.

It appears that you wish to join them in their accusation against Paul rather than join in Paul's defense. You seem to imply that Paul should have strongly affirmed the accusation against him.

That would be a "sign" that something is amiss.

in Christ,

Bob

PAUL KNEW WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT HIM. James knew too, they said paul was saying this>>>

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

So paul who said he did things for the gospel, took the vow, no big deal really!

 

[BobRyan]

For those who want to escape the Acts 21 point about Paul and the Jews we have ...

This switch to Gal 4 -- Paul vs the gentiles in Galatia -

They were returning to pagan practices 'again" says Paul.

Gal 4
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
============================

Paganism

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

The "return AGAIN" to paganism. Not in full but in some pagan practices9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?


The specific pagan practice pointed out - the mere observance of which causes the loss of salvation.

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

By contrast to the "pagan" observance in Gal 4 we have the NON Pagan observances in Rom 14 where no one is to be condemned if they do or do not choose to observe these opitonal - annual holy days in the list of God ordained annual feast days of Lev 23.

A perfect contrast.

In Gal 4 - the pagan days - one is condemned for even observing one.

In Rom 14 the God ordained days - no one is to be condemned for observing ALL of them alike.

Now back to Paul vs the jews -- Acts 21.

in Christ,

Bob

This is what we do not find in Acts 21

9 Now, however, that you have come to be acquainted with and understand and know [the true] God, or rather to be understood and known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things [[d]of all religions before Christ came], whose slaves you once more want to become?

no, the verses before, about paganism, were when they did not know God! he says, now you know God, and are returning

Yes a "return" to something they had been doing before - not a "return to something they had never done" because that is not a "return" by definition.

It is paganism.

In paganism even observing one of the pagan days is to risk one's salvation.

But in Rom 14 to "observe all days" in the list of approved annual holy days days - approved by God in Lev 23 is not to be condemned at all -- as Paul states.

 

[Frogster]

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.

20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

1. They are Jews.
2. They are believers.
3. they are "zealous for the Law"

And so also are the disciples - the Apostles are all in that category.





I find your logic "illusive" given that actual content of chapter 21.





"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

However in the case of Acts 21 we have --

24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

BOTH James AND Paul are attracted to that desire "result" - they BOTH view it as such a desired outcome that the plan, the solution proposed ... is accepted.



Your argument is "with the text" apparently.

It appears that you wish to join them in their accusation against Paul rather than join in Paul's defense. You seem to imply that Paul should have strongly affirmed the accusation against him.

That would be a "sign" that something is amiss.

in Christ,

Bob

large green fonts above, I had to make em big, to show up in your type of post. What happened to the first half of the verse, usually in a debate, people post the whole verse.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

This was written in the NT.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
​

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

This thread is about saint Paul's battle against a Torah observing party within the early church.
​

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.


20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

 

[Frogster]

This is what we do not find in Acts 21



Yes a "return" to something they had been doing before - not a "return to something they had never done" because that is not a "return" by definition.

It is paganism.

In paganism even observing one of the pagan days is to risk one's salvation.

But in Rom 14 to "observe all days" in the list of approved annual holy days days - approved by God in Lev 23 is not to be condemned at all -- as Paul states.

lol..you say returning to pagansim, yet 4:10 was the jewish calendar! And then

how could they go in 2 different directions, judaism and paganism, all by the control of the judaizers?

 

[Frogster]

2 directions???????

wow!get circumcised 5:3, keep the jewish calendar 4:10, desire to be under law 4:21, yet somehow they were returning to paganism?:o

 

[MoreCoffee]

To BobRyan: The text is not in dispute but the spin present in the way your posts present it and interpret it is in dispute. It is abundantly clear that Acts 15 sets the standard for the early church regarding the law and Acts 15 declares that:

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: and they wrote [thus] by them,

The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting: Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment; it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well. ​

Acts 15:22-29​

So when we get to Acts 21 we read a back-reference to the letter shown above; specifically we read:

And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he rehearsed one by one the things which God had wrought among the Gentiles through his ministry. And they, when they heard it, glorified God; and they said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them that have believed; and they are all zealous for the law: and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? they will certainly hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them; these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law. But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfilment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them. Acts 21:17-26​

The deception in what "they heard" was that saint Paul was teaching Jews to abandon "the customs" and to leave their children uncircumcised. This has nothing to do with being Torah observant as a requirement for Christians. It has everything to do with people brought up in Torah observance wanting to keep their CUSTOMS. And it is abundantly clear that the decision in Acts 15 stands above this episode of vow payments and shaving of heads neither of which is an explicit law in the Torah. And it ought to be noted that saint Paul's decision to go along with vow payments and head shaving led directly to his arrest. So for your posts to argue that this episode is a model for Christians to follow and that it teaches Torah observance as a Christian duty is an error. Saint Paul was opposed to burdening the Christians in gentile lands with the Torah and saint Peter, in Acts 15, pointed out that not even the Jews were able to bear that burden.

 

[BobRyan]

Christian church leaders like James were addressing what they consider a false accusation being made against the Apostle Paul.

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

They suggest some solution to the problem with this conclusion

vs 24...so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

PAUL KNEW WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT HIM. James knew too,

indeed the text tells us what they were saying

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

AND the text tells us the solution that they chose to refute that false accusation - and prove it to be false.

I think we can all see that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

This was written in the NT.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
​

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

This thread is about saint Paul's battle against a Torah observing party within the early church.
​

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.


20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
===============================================

Obviously in that post above - it is the text itself that makes the case. The idea that avoiding the text is the best way to address it - does not work.

As we see in this example above - I simply quote the text.

To BobRyan: The text is not in dispute but the spin present in the way your posts present it and interpret it is in dispute.

How odd - since I offer no "interpretation" in that quote above - I merely quote the text - and point to details in the text that some might wish to avoid.

Notice that those who want to get a better view of Acts 21 - do so by avoiding the text entirely. And thus provide a clue for all who read that there is a problem

It is abundantly clear that Acts 15 sets the standard for the early church

Acts 21 is about the subject of Jews that are Christians.

Acts 15 is about the subject of gentiles who become Christians.

One cannot interpret Acts 21 - by avoiding it.

So when we get to Acts 21 we read a back-reference to the letter shown above; specifically we read:

And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he rehearsed one by one the things which God had wrought among the Gentiles through his ministry. And they, when they heard it, glorified God; and they said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of them that have believed;

​

indeed - they are believers.

and they are all zealous for the law:

And those Jewish believers were "zealous for the law"

Pretty hard to ignore these basic facts quoted in your own post.

and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

Now here is an accusation that was made against Paul - that some here would gladly affirm -- if they could in Acts 21.

What is it therefore? they will certainly hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them; these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.

Here we see the "solution" that they say fully refutes the accusation.

Clearly their solution does do that.

A huge problem for those who are at war against certain parts of the Bible.

Notice then - in your own quote of it - how the Jewish Christian leaders such as James - set this example in contrast to the gentiles.

But as touching the Gentiles that have believed, we wrote, giving judgment that they should keep themselves from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what is strangled, and from fornication.

An interesting affirmation of Lev 17 when it comes to not eating meat that has blood in it. And not exhaustive since it does not even include the command to Love God or to Love your neighbor -- clearly it is not intended to downsize the entire Bible for gentiles.

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfilment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them. Acts 21:17-26

A solution perfectly calculated to refute the false accusation against Paul when the reality for Paul was as James said --

and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law

The deception in what "they heard" was that saint Paul was teaching Jews to abandon "the customs" and to leave their children uncircumcised.

Specifically that Paul was in the habit of gaining Christian converts from among the Jews - and in so doing he was said to be telling them to

forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

So then Paul refutes that charge in HIS Own practice and in his paying for his fellow Christian Jews to join him in that ceremonial vow.

This has nothing to do with being Torah observant
as a requirement for Christians. It has everything to do with people brought up in Torah observance wanting to keep their CUSTOMS.

Well it does specifically speak to what Paul was teaching Jewish Christians and what Paul himself practiced -- if you read the chapter.

And it is abundantly clear that the decision in Acts 15 stands above this episode

Not "Above" not "Below" they are showing that their actions are "in harmony with" what they had already voted.

The point remains.

So for your posts to argue that this episode is a model for Christians to follow and that it teaches Torah observance as a Christian duty is an error.

you are quoting "you" to try and find an error. Quote me if you want to show that I am in error.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

To BobRyan: Acts 15 is the decision of the first Church council, Acts 21 is an incident based on erroneous rumours about saint paul's teaching among the Jews in gentile lands. It is patently obvious that Acts 15 is official teaching and Acts 21 is just an episode.

 

[BobRyan]

As Acts 21 shows Paul WAS in fact a Messianic Jew - a circumcised Jew who immediately after the Acts 15 decision -- had Timothy circumcised.

This THREAD title claims that Paul fights circumcised messianic Judaism - but he in fact WAS that very thing so also were all the Apostles. Context context context.

 

[BobRyan]

To BobRyan: Acts 15 is the decision of the first Church council, Acts 21 is an incident based on erroneous rumours about saint paul's teaching among the Jews in gentile lands. It is patently obvious that Acts 15 is official teaching and Acts 21 is just an episode.

Acts 21 tries to prove a point about both the teaching and the practice of Paul.

Acts 15 is not trying to determine/prove what Paul was teaching or what his practice was -- Actrs 21 is trying to prove that very thing.

Thus the point remains.

This thread title deals with Paul and his supposed war against "The circumcision, messianic Judaism".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

Interesting that you would wish to highlight that.


20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
===============================================

Obviously in that post above - it is the text itself that makes the case. The idea that avoiding the text is the best way to address it - does not work.

As we see in this example above - I simply quote the text.



How odd - since I offer no "interpretation" in that quote above - I merely quote the text - and point to details in the text that some might wish to avoid.

Notice that those who want to get a better view of Acts 21 - do so by avoiding the text entirely. And thus provide a clue for all who read that there is a problem




Acts 21 is about the subject of Jews that are Christians.

Acts 15 is about the subject of gentiles who become Christians.

One cannot interpret Acts 21 - by avoiding it.




indeed - they are believers.



And those Jewish believers were "zealous for the law"

Pretty hard to ignore these basic facts quoted in your own post.



Now here is an accusation that was made against Paul - that some here would gladly affirm -- if they could in Acts 21.



Here we see the "solution" that they say fully refutes the accusation.

Clearly their solution does do that.

A huge problem for those who are at war against certain parts of the Bible.

Notice then - in your own quote of it - how the Jewish Christian leaders such as James - set this example in contrast to the gentiles.



An interesting affirmation of Lev 17 when it comes to not eating meat that has blood in it. And not exhaustive since it does not even include the command to Love God or to Love your neighbor -- clearly it is not intended to downsize the entire Bible for gentiles.




A solution perfectly calculated to refute the false accusation against Paul when the reality for Paul was as James said --

and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law





Specifically that Paul was in the habit of gaining Christian converts from among the Jews - and in so doing he was said to be telling them to

forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

So then Paul refutes that charge in HIS Own practice and in his paying for his fellow Christian Jews to join him in that ceremonial vow.





Well it does specifically speak to what Paul was teaching Jewish Christians and what Paul himself practiced -- if you read the chapter.



Not "Above" not "Below" they are showing that their actions are "in harmony with" what they had already voted.

The point remains.




you are quoting "you" to try and find an error. Quote me if you want to show that I am in error.

in Christ,

Bob

The Jerusalem church ended in 70 ad, and prior, even the Jewish Christians in Antioch, were living as gentiles, so yeah, they had their 40 year testing in the Jerusalem church, then that was it.

After all Paul said, to take Acts 21, during a stressful transitional time in church history, to make like Paul lived a a Jew, when right in Phil 3 he said it was all dung in the KJV, is not sound biblical interpretation by any means.

Gal 1, his FORMER life in Judaism,

Gosh, the guy did not go to temple for 17 years...

 

[Frogster]

As Acts 21 shows Paul WAS in fact a Messianic Jew - a circumcised Jew who immediately after the Acts 15 decision -- had Timothy circumcised.

This THREAD title claims that Paul fights circumcised messianic Judaism - but he in fact WAS that very thing so also were all the Apostles. Context context context.

Paul was not a messianic, besides, he circumcised Tim for evangelistic reasons, the Jews knew his father was a Greek, do Paul did not want distractions, so he circumcised him, the verse says they knew his father was a Greek.

How can Paul say he died to he law, and be a messianic?

 

[BobRyan]

Paul and James came up with a solution to refute the false accusation

"they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs."

Do you join them in that accusation against Paul - or do you choose to join James and Paul in refuting it?

What is the position that your POV takes on that point of Acts 21?

 

[MoreCoffee]

As Acts 21 shows Paul WAS in fact a Messianic Jew - a circumcised Jew who immediately after the Acts 15 decision -- had Timothy circumcised.

Far from it. Acts 21 shows that some of the thousands of Jews in the Jerusalem christian community wanted to make Paul behave as they demanded. It says absolutely nothing about saint Paul being a "Messianic Jew".

Besides, the whole idea of Messianic Jews is recent; saint Paul would have been surprised to hear such a term. For him Christians were Christians. It is a name given to the Lord's followers in Antioch. The name was given by divine providence.

(Acts 11:22-26) 22 The report about them reached the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barʹna·bas as far as Antioch. 23 When he arrived and saw the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all to continue in the Lord with steadfast resolve; 24 for he was a good man full of the Holy Spirit and faith. And a considerable number of people were added to the Lord. 25 So he went to Tarsus to make a thorough search for Saul. 26 After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the church and taught a great many people, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.​

 

[BobRyan]

Paul was not a messianic, ?

"messianic" means that he accepted Christ as the Messiah - Christ is simply the Greek word for the same.

As for what he was practicing - what he was doing -- we have this

Acts 21

What is it therefore? they will certainly hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them; these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.

 

[BobRyan]

As Acts 21 shows Paul WAS in fact a Messianic Jew - a circumcised Jew who immediately after the Acts 15 decision -- had Timothy circumcised.

This THREAD title claims that Paul fights circumcised messianic Judaism - but he in fact WAS that very thing so also were all the Apostles. Context context context.

"messianic" means that he accepted Christ as the Messiah - Christ is simply the Greek word for the same.

As for what he was practicing - what he was doing -- we have this

Acts 21

What is it therefore? they will certainly hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men that have a vow on them; these take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges for them, that they may shave their heads: and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.

Far from it. Acts 21 shows that some of the thousands of Jews in the Jerusalem christian community wanted to make Paul behave as they demanded.

On the contrary - James and Paul were taking an action that THEY determined not that some 1000 Jews came up with. And they determined to to PROVE a point about what Paul was teaching and what his practice was.

This is irrefutable.

It says absolutely nothing about saint Paul being a "Messianic Jew".

Turns out that "Messiah" is the Hebrew original from which we have the greek form "Christ" -- it is impossible to make the case that Paul was not a Jew and was not a believer in Christ.

I think we both know that.

The whole idea of Messianic Jew existed even before John the baptizer - Jews were known for looking for the Messiah. The precise meaning after the cross is a Jew that accepts Jesus of Nazareth as being that "Messiah".

Again a point that all are aware of. The greek term "Christian" was initially derogatory - Paul said he belonged to 'the sect' that is called "The WAY".

James was certain of "this" when it came to Paul -


and all shall know that there is no truth in the things whereof they have been informed concerning thee; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, keeping the law.