Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[RDKirk]

So we don't get what we want then, huh? It's Yahweh or darkness. I guess being sent to an eternal void makes you feel better than sending good people to be set on fire. Probably still as torturous. Enjoy your clubhouse.

I don't know if it would be better or not. What a true atheist expects can be nothing but oblivion. As I said before, though, there are people claiming to be atheists who aren't really atheists.

And what for us who think you've got the wrong god?

I've already spoken of that, to some extent, when I pointed out that God does not destroy the ignorant. I noted that C.S. Lewis addressed this in his novel, "The Last Battle" (which someone else has also pointed out).

I can say there are some people clearly on that side of the situation, such as American Indians prior to 1492, as well as the worshipers of the "unknown god" that Paul addressed.

But there is also the category of people who have gotten a lousy gospel, an inaccurate gospel, which is transmitted as much by deed as by word. Paul quoted the OT about this: As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you. -- Romans 2. Scripture tells me that God recognizes the distinction.

Nobody reading scripture honestly can say that merely proclaiming belief absolutely ensures salvation or that merely having failed to proclaim belief absolutely ensures damnation.

I have personally been through too many things, seen too many things, to say that there is no God. That would be too much like Monty Python's Black Knight ("You never touched me!")

But i do believe the single choice available to every person is either a universe in which there a good God everyone will be glad to obey or a universe in which there will be no God at all, not even the evidence of there having been one.

 

[bhsmte]

I've already spoken of that, to some extent, when I pointed out that God does not destroy the ignorant. I noted that C.S. Lewis addressed this in his novel, "The Last Battle" (which someone else has also pointed out).

In today's world, ignorance of the Christian story really doesn't apply, as there is easy access to investigate what the Christian story claims. In fact, studies have shown, the two groups with the highest knowledge of various religions are; atheists and Muslims and the lowest general knowledge of religion, is found in fundamentalist Christians.

I am curious, what is your take on certain religious leaders like the former Billy Graham and Joel Osteen, who have basically stated; a person does not have to believe in Jesus, to get to heaven.

Graham stated this towards the very end of his life and I would think, he was struggling with the moral issue of; good people who live good lives, who are doomed, simply because they don't subscribe to a certain religion.

 

[agua]

I am curious, what is your take on certain religious leaders like the former Billy Graham and Joel Osteen, who have basically stated; a person does not have to believe in Jesus, to get to heaven.

Graham stated this towards the very end of his life and I would think, he was struggling with the moral issue of; good people who live good lives, who are doomed, simply because they don't subscribe to a certain religion.

Firstly I'd like the source for Billy Grahams statement, please, and I think you may be incorrect in the reasoning of why he may have said this, if he did. I've explained to you before how general revelation works towards all humans, though.

 

[bhsmte]

Firstly I'd like the source for Billy Grahams statement, please, and I think you may be incorrect in the reasoning of why he may have said this, if he did. I've explained to you before how general revelation works towards all humans, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgpUPHkgc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwzEpvLD4Qg

Does Joel Osteen sound like a politician, or what?

 

[RDKirk]

In today's world, ignorance of the Christian story really doesn't apply, as there is easy access to investigate what the Christian story claims. In fact, studies have shown, the two groups with the highest knowledge of various religions are; atheists and Muslims and the lowest general knowledge of religion, is found in fundamentalist Christians.

I don't expect a person who is fully invested in his own religion to have much interest in every other religion as well. I do expect him to have deep knowledge of his own religion, and I bemoan the common illiteracy in Christianity that most Christians have.

I am curious, what is your take on certain religious leaders like the former Billy Graham and Joel Osteen, who have basically stated; a person does not have to believe in Jesus, to get to heaven.

Graham stated this towards the very end of his life and I would think, he was struggling with the moral issue of; good people who live good lives, who are doomed, simply because they don't subscribe to a certain religion.

I have overall issues with Osteen's doctrines anyway.

But I think Graham was trying to express the same thing I've been expressing here.

I don't think that other doctrines are themselves salvational--a Hindu is not saved through Hinduism--but I do believe scripture shows us that God takes into consideration whether a person "walked in all the light he had."

 

[bhsmte]

I don't expect a person who is fully invested in his own religion to have much interest in every other religion as well. I do expect him to have deep knowledge of his own religion, and I bemoan the common illiteracy in Christianity that most Christians have.

I would agree.

I have overall issues with Osteen's doctrines anyway.

Like I said, he comes across like a politician, not unlike many of the modern day mega pastors do.

But I think Graham was trying to express the same thing I've been expressing here

.

Could be.

I don't think that other doctrines are themselves salvational--a Hindu is not saved through Hinduism--but I do believe scripture shows us that God takes into consideration whether a person "walked in all the light he had."

So, correct me if I am wrong. Your take, is God considers the person and not their religion, when it comes to salvation?

 

[BL2KTN]

I don't know if it would be better or not. What a true atheist expects can be nothing but oblivion. As I said before, though, there are people claiming to be atheists who aren't really atheists.

What does any of that have to do with me?

I've already spoken of that, to some extent, when I pointed out that God does not destroy the ignorant. I noted that C.S. Lewis addressed this in his novel, "The Last Battle" (which someone else has also pointed out).

I can say there are some people clearly on that side of the situation, such as American Indians prior to 1492, as well as the worshipers of the "unknown god" that Paul addressed.

But there is also the category of people who have gotten a lousy gospel, an inaccurate gospel, which is transmitted as much by deed as by word. Paul quoted the OT about this: As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you. -- Romans 2. Scripture tells me that God recognizes the distinction.

Nobody reading scripture honestly can say that merely proclaiming belief absolutely ensures salvation or that merely having failed to proclaim belief absolutely ensures damnation.

I have personally been through too many things, seen too many things, to say that there is no God. That would be too much like Monty Python's Black Knight ("You never touched me!")

But i do believe the single choice available to every person is either a universe in which there a good God everyone will be glad to obey or a universe in which there will be no God at all, not even the evidence of there having been one.

Assertion without evidence.

 

[agua]

So, correct me if I am wrong. Your take, is God considers the person and not their religion, when it comes to salvation?

Yahweh insists a person doesn't follow a false god, as well. A person who accepts that Vishnu is god, and follows the Hindu teachings, will not be saved.

 

[agua]

Does Joel Osteen sound like a politician, or what?

Joel Olsteen sure does, but he's better paid

 

[agua]

Graham stated this towards the very end of his life and I would think, he was struggling with the moral issue of; good people who live good lives, who are doomed, simply because they don't subscribe to a certain religion.

Ok I just watched Billy's clip, and he said that true believers don't need to know the name of Jesus, and that people from all religions are being called out by Yahweh.

I think you misunderstand what he means.

 

[bhsmte]

Yahweh insists a person doesn't follow a false god, as well. A person who accepts that Vishnu is god, and follows the Hindu teachings, will not be saved.

Billy Graham would disagree with this.

 

[BL2KTN]

Aqua makes a great argument for the evil Yahweh. Born to the wrong family, believe in Hinduism, die in a car accident after delivering food to the poor: burn forever.

Rape and murder until a real conversion weeks before you die: c'mon to heaven, Jesus wants to hug you.

 

[Davian]

I was just trying to help you to see how reality is, if you don't want to accept it then it is your choice. I tried to open your eyes, but maybe you don't want to... Sorry if any of you felt insulted by me.

Belief is not a choice, certainly not for me. I cannot simply choose to believe without some sort of convincing evidence or argument.

By what methodology did you determine that reality included biblical-style gods?

 

[Davian]

Aqua makes a great argument for the evil Yahweh. Born to the wrong family, believe in Hinduism, die in a car accident after delivering food to the poor: burn forever.

Rape and murder until a real conversion weeks before you die: c'mon to heaven, Jesus wants to hug you.

I gather that anything goes, as long as you believe.

 

[FireDragon76]

None of which is ultimately essential to the final judgment. One can be enthused with compassion and a desire to do justice over the course of one's entire life, only to be thrust into Hell for failing to believe the correct dogmas.

Look, stop throwing around loaded words like "dogma". Most Protestant churches don't even recognize dogmas in the sense you are referring to.

No, you will not be judged by your understanding of doctrines or dogma. That's just not true. Doctrine in churches exists to shape and instruct, not to be an end in itself.

The system of divine retribution you are defending is worthy of contempt. It makes a mockery of justice.

In one ear, out the other I guess.

So you keep telling me, and yet I frequently encounter Christians who uphold views that you claim are a caricature of Christianity. Perhaps they deem your views likewise?

Of course. Christians don't agree on many things. That hardly means all Christians believe what you say they do.

You seem to forget that I was once a believer.

And that probably makes you even more embittered. But it doesn't make you an expert on Christian beliefs anymore than having a driver's license makes you a great driver.

In case you have forgotten, your particular version is not the only one.

No, of course not, but those other positions you are criticizing about are actually the minority, looking at the broad span of Christian beliefs and history. The majority of the Christians in the world are Roman Catholic, and the second-largest Christian body is Eastern Orthodox, followed by the Anglican Communion. None of the characterizations you have made really fit the beliefs and attitudes of those churches.

 

[Ken-1122]

You called it a "good thing." Being stabbed instead of shot is not a "good thing."

I said it was progress. Look! Racism is not going away no time soon. The best we can do is lessen it’s effects and drive it underground. When we see this happening, we need to recognize it and admit progress is being made. To sit here and pretend that racism is as bad or worse than under "Jim Crow" will only cause people to dismiss anything you have to say, because your bias and dishonesty will be apparent to any reasonable person.

Ken

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Aqua makes a great argument for the evil Yahweh. Born to the wrong family, believe in Hinduism, die in a car accident after delivering food to the poor: burn forever.

Rape and murder until a real conversion weeks before you die: c'mon to heaven, Jesus wants to hug you.

I covered this in my Atheist Asks Series. I said that someone on an island nation who was just a joy and positive, helpful member of the community he belongs to dies a peaceful death. And he has no knowledge of Yahweh or Jesus so he's gonna burn in hell.

The counter argument I received was decent but not good enough.

He said that if you're ignorant of Jesus but you're a good person then you get a free pass.

I then ask so why are missionaries necessary then if all you have to be is a good person?

He says because true happiness can only be known through Jesus. Like that makes ANY sense.

(I say it's a trap.)

But I never got around to asking what If you're a good person and know of Jesus and still don't accept him? Like Ghandi?

I guess that's a hell ticket?

(The topic: http://www.christianforums.com/t7875990/)

 

[agua]

Aqua makes a great argument for the evil Yahweh. Born to the wrong family, believe in Hinduism, die in a car accident after delivering food to the poor: burn forever.

Rape and murder until a real conversion weeks before you die: c'mon to heaven, Jesus wants to hug you.

There's at least 4 straw men in this small field; well done I think you've beat the record.

BlueLightning do you opertate more than one account on this forum ?

 

[agua]

Billy Graham would disagree with this.

Nope. I watched the youtube and explained what Billy meant. You've misinterpreted ( or rather interpreted to suit a belief ) him.

 

[bhsmte]

Nope. I watched the youtube and explained what Billy meant. You've misinterpreted ( or rather interpreted to suit a belief ) him.

I don't think so.

When he stated Muslims could acquire the same reward, that ticked off a boatload of Christians and they were not too happy with old Billy.