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Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

quatona

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People will get what they really want.
That´s a huge promise. Do you mean it, or will it turn out to

If you want a universe with no God, I believe that is what you'll get.
I don´t think that many non-believers´ wants circle around the existence or non-existence of a God. If anything, it would depend on the characteristics of this God. Personally, I wouldn´t mind a God existing, at all.
Likewise, I don´t think that many believers want just some God to exist. Typically, they want God to have certain characteristics.

So, reminding you of your promise: Will people get a universe with the very Gods of their preferences?

Second: Do you know any persons who truly don't believe in a deity yet who do truly want one to exist?
You are moving the goalposts too quickly for it to go unnoticed.
"Not truly wanting a deity to exist" doesn´t equal "wanting a universe with no God".
 
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Eudaimonist

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If you want a universe with no God, I believe that is what you'll get.

Cute, but I think that what drives most atheists is a strong desire to know the truth about reality. And that truth according to any reliable, rational epistemology is evidently that we live in an amazing godless reality.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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GrimKingGrim

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Cute, but I think that what drives most atheists is a strong desire to know the truth about reality. And that truth according to any reliable, rational epistemology is evidently that we live in an amazing godless reality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Exactly. We generally don't take a cop out to comfort us. Take me for example I just went emotional in the previous page. And I would love to take the easy road out and comfort myself with this love God supposedly has for me.

But I can't betray my own intelligence like that. It'd be doing myself a disservice.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Faith is the most important thing, as I see now, because Christ is the most important One in our lives. Morality comes after faith, one who follows Christ will be moral too,

Faith doesn't appear to be necessary for morality, though it certainly plays a role in some individuals' attempts to justify immorality.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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No, not at all. Else how would children inherit the Kingdom? they don't understand doctrines. For a church like the Eastern Orthodox, the religious life is about participation in the sacramental life, the rites of the Church, not ones private intellectual understanding.

I guess that means there is no need for indoctrination then?

No, it has to do with love. Perhaps your heart is too hardened to see that.

I know you would like to believe that any scrutiny of your religion comes from a "hardened heart," but consider for a moment the implications of what you've been saying. Moral accountability is not important; faith is. You will only be held accountable for whether you had faith, not whether you were compassionate, loving, and just. Punishment will be mete to those who, for whatever reason, did not uphold the faith, regardless of whether they were compassionate, loving, and just. This system isn't about moral accountability at all; it's about retribution against those who have committed thought crimes. And what of those poor souls who believed wrongly and will thus suffer eternally? Will you be moved to compassion for them in Heaven, or will your heart be hardened to the plight of your fellow human beings when you walk through Heaven's gates?
 
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GrowingSmaller

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The placing of secular epistemology uber alles (above all) reflects goodness for only certain of us.

Take for example me, I am stuck in a random person generator, half in a ditch of fire. Religion helps me out of the ditch.

If I take a Rawlsian approach to epistemology, then my "lowest of lows" is my own secular ways.

Therefore, from behind a "veil of ignorance" (in the face of an unknown absolute truth) the better option for me is faith.

Its relative.
 
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FireDragon76

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You will only be held accountable for whether you had faith, not whether you were compassionate, loving, and just. Punishment will be mete to those who, for whatever reason, did not uphold the faith, regardless of whether they were compassionate, loving, and just.

Woah... a true faith will be evidenced by compassion, love, and a desire to do justice. But it would be unmerciful of God to judge us by what our deeds deserves, since we are all sinners, and being a Christian does not change that. As Seneca said, to err is human, and that doesn't go away even after spiritual regeneration. But hopefully are hearts are changed and we are inclined to repent and try to be better people. That doesn't mean we become perfect.

This system isn't about moral accountability at all; it's about retribution against those who have committed thought crimes.

I'll just say it, this is a load of bull excrement. Stop thoughtlessly repeating Hitchens and Harris' propaganda, get rid of the contempt, and look at Christian beliefs in a more even-handed fashion. The kind of faith you are caricaturing is not representative of the vast majority of Christians.

And what of those poor souls who believed wrongly and will thus suffer eternally?

I don't know they will, look up C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle. God judges the heart.

I can't really persuade you to believe, that's the Holy Spirit's job. But your errors and attempts to misrepresent our faith should be pointed out.
 
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RDKirk

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Uh I know we had that interaction in the other thread but you're actually off the mark here. I was referring to my maternal grandfather who died when I was 9. His passing was extremely emotional for me. In a family with a pathological superiority complex I swear I was picked on by everyone related to me by blood. My granddaddy was the only one who treated me with respect and true love as a child. I had a lot of energy and was a busy body so naturally I caused trouble (which was my nickname, a play on my real name, Trevor) do you know what it's like to be told you weren't welcome in family member's homes?

My grandfather was the only one who treated me like a little man and his funeral was the single worst day of my life. I was forced to confront the harsh reality that he isn't coming back and it broke my heart. I cried more that day than any day to date.

So my question of if my grandfather is happy was completely genuine. If it turns out the whole heaven thing is real I know for sure he's there and all I'd want is to have a small status update on him. I know it would be too much to ask God if I could see him one more time and let him see me as a full grown man (which is something I would do ANYTHING for) so I would just ask that simple question: is he happy in heaven?

See? There are atheists who want nothing more than it to be real. And I'm really choked up because I had to write this now. :sad:

Was your grandfather an atheist, btw?

And if your pain was caused by your family, why do you simultaneously blame it on racism?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Woah... a true faith will be evidenced by compassion, love, and a desire to do justice.

None of which is ultimately essential to the final judgment. One can be enthused with compassion and a desire to do justice over the course of one's entire life, only to be thrust into Hell for failing to believe the correct dogmas.

I'll just say it, this is a load of bull excrement. Stop thoughtlessly repeating Hitchens and Harris' propaganda, get rid of the contempt, and look at Christian beliefs in a more even-handed fashion.

The system of divine retribution you are defending is worthy of contempt. It makes a mockery of justice.

The kind of faith you are caricaturing is not representative of the vast majority of Christians.

So you keep telling me, and yet I frequently encounter Christians who uphold views that you claim are a caricature of Christianity. Perhaps they deem your views likewise?

I don't know they will, look up C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle. God judges the heart.

I can't really persuade you to believe, that's the Holy Spirit's job.

You seem to forget that I was once a believer.

But your errors and attempts to misrepresent our faith should be pointed out.

You have frequently made this claim, and yet the "misrepresentation" you accuse me of is all too often an actual position that some Christians adhere to. More accurately, you want to say that I'm misrepresenting your particular brand of Christianity, whatever that may be. In case you have forgotten, your particular version is not the only one.
 
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RDKirk

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That´s a huge promise. Do you mean it, or will it turn out to


I don´t think that many non-believers´ wants circle around the existence or non-existence of a God. If anything, it would depend on the characteristics of this God. Personally, I wouldn´t mind a God existing, at all.
Likewise, I don´t think that many believers want just some God to exist. Typically, they want God to have certain characteristics.

So, reminding you of your promise: Will people get a universe with the very Gods of their preferences?

No. We get the God who is,

...or we get a universe with no God. But a universe with no God will be a universe with no evidence of His existence. No creation, not even light, a universe of darkness outside this universe.


You are moving the goalposts too quickly for it to go unnoticed.
"Not truly wanting a deity to exist" doesn´t equal "wanting a universe with no God".

No, not moving it, but defining it. There are people who claim to be atheists who aren't really atheists...they're just mad at God. They aren't the man who has "said in his heart 'there is no God.'"
 
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Ken-1122

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Yes, I'm angry. Because racism no longer is presented in the open. It no longer has this face:

[Redacted Racist Picture]

It is now faceless. It wants us to believe it's gone.

I believe the fact that racism is faceless, no longer presented in the open and wants people to believe it is gone is a good thing.

A society where racism is out in the open, and has a face to it is a society where racism is tolerated, accepted and even promoted.
The reason racism is hidden, faceless and has to pretend it doesn't exist; is because the majority of society hates it, vilifies it, and does everything it can to wipe it out. Now that's progress!

Ken
 
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RDKirk

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I believe the fact that racism is faceless, no longer presented in the open and wants people to believe it is gone is a good thing.

A society where racism is out in the open, and has a face to it is a society where racism is tolerated, accepted and even promoted.
The reason racism is hidden, faceless and has to pretend it doesn't exist; is because the majority of society hates it, vilifies it, and does everything it can to wipe it out. Now that's progress!

Ken

Maybe, maybe not. The difference was apparent in the 50s and early 60s in the difference between racism in the North (faceless, not present in the open) and racism in the South (tolerated, accepted, and even promoted).

In the South, a black man knew his enemy, knew his enemy's tactics, knew when failure was his own or the result of his enemy's attack. You knew why you didn't get the job: The sign said, "No colored hired." The loan officer laughed at you when you walked in the door, then bum-rushed you right back out the door. The sign at the entrance to the town said, "No colored after sundown."

In the North, it was never so clear. If a man was turned down for a job, was him or was it racism? If a man was turned down for a business loan, was it him or was it racism? If a man couldn't buy a house, was it him or was it racism?

I read a book back around 1972 called "Education of a WASP" by Lois Mark Stalvey. Stalvey was a white housewife living in a nice neighborhood on the west side of Omaha, NE. In 1961, she happened to meet a black couple--a doctor and his teacher wife--who lived in North Omaha--an undesirable part of town, but the part that blacks were relegated to.

Naively, she volunteered to help them find a house in her own neighborhood--it was not Montgomery, AL, after all. That's when her education began, and in a short time because of her efforts, her husband lost his job and both of them got kicked out of Omaha.

This was only a year or so before I wound up in Omaha myself, and found it hardly different a decade after the events she wrote of.

Another interesting book I read about the same time was "Soul Sister," by Grace Halsell. Halsell was a white journalist originally from Alabama who used the drug methoxsalen to turn her skin black (similarly to John Griffin, who wrote "Black Like Me").

But her "dark passage" was much longer than Griffin's six weeks. She spent six months as a black woman in Harlem, then six months as a black woman in her own native Alabama town.

Although her experiences in Alabama were personally more harrowing (including a rape attempt by her white employer), she reported that being black in Harlem was much more deadening of the soul.

The difference between 1963 and now is that racism everywhere is like racism in Harlem.
 
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Ken-1122

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Maybe, maybe not. The difference was apparent in the 50s and early 60s in the difference between racism in the North (faceless, not present in the open) and racism in the South (tolerated, accepted, and even promoted).

In the South, a black man knew his enemy, knew his enemy's tactics, knew when failure was his own or the result of his enemy's attack. You knew why you didn't get the job: The sign said, "No colored hired." The loan officer laughed at you when you walked in the door, then bum-rushed you right back out the door. The sign at the entrance to the town said, "No colored after sundown."
Would you really prefer to live that way today?

In the North, it was never so clear. If a man was turned down for a job, was him or was it racism? If a man was turned down for a business loan, was it him or was it racism? If a man couldn't buy a house, was it him or was it racism
And which did the people who had to deal with that type of racism choose? They chose the North. In the 50's and 60's black people left the South by the thousands and went to California, New York, Chicago, and various other areas to escape the South where racism was out in the open to a place where racism was hidden.

Ken
 
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BL2KTN

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No. We get the God who is,

...or we get a universe with no God. But a universe with no God will be a universe with no evidence of His existence. No creation, not even light, a universe of darkness outside this universe.

So we don't get what we want then, huh? It's Yahweh or darkness. I guess being sent to an eternal void makes you feel better than sending good people to be set on fire. Probably still as torturous. Enjoy your clubhouse.




No, not moving it, but defining it. There are people who claim to be atheists who aren't really atheists...they're just mad at God. They aren't the man who has "said in his heart 'there is no God.'"

And what for us who think you've got the wrong god?
 
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Wryetui

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Again, you're not going to win any friends by calling people rotten. Stop calling people names and try and post something of substance instead.
I am sorry but rotten is what sin is, rotten is what sin does to us, sin smudges and stains our soul. Don't you see how bad people are sometimes? Mothers murdering their children, families killing themselves for a heritage, brothers turning in hate one against the other, horrendous and grievous wars all througout the history, yes, rotten is what sin does to people, but Christ came to save us from there, through Christ we won't be stained by sin anymore, He is the healing, through His wounds we are healed and He didn't left, Christ, by becoming human, our human nature once savaged by sin can return to be pure and in full communion with Him who created us. I am not trying to win any friends, I am defending my faith and in this thread I just wanted to ask what will you atheists do if it all turns out to be right (don't misunderstand me, Christ is the reality, but not all the people believe it, only christians), yes, that is my opinion, you have your own, it's perfectly fine, but you can't be upset by me showing what my religion teaches because you are, after all, in a Christian forum, you have to respect Christianity and it's teachings.
 
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KCfromNC

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I am sorry but rotten is what sin is, rotten is what sin does to us, sin smudges and stains our soul. Don't you see how bad people are sometimes?

I'm certainly seeing some examples of poor behavior, such as baseless name calling of people one has never met, in this very thread.
 
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RDKirk

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Would you really prefer to live that way today?


And which did the people who had to deal with that type of racism choose? They chose the North. In the 50's and 60's black people left the South by the thousands and went to California, New York, Chicago, and various other areas to escape the South where racism was out in the open to a place where racism was hidden.

Ken

You called it a "good thing." Being stabbed instead of shot is not a "good thing."
 
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