Why do you believe in the evolution theory? (2)

[Oncedeceived]

How does that answer your point, and my reply? Please explain?

Your claim was that there was no branch in science that deals with that which I said was untrue and told you why. What don't you understand?

How would your definition compare with this one:

"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions." - Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

I do not accept that. I do not think the evidence supports evolution alone could provide the means in which complex systems and life forms are produced.

It is important to note that biological evolution refers to populations and not to individuals and that the changes must be passed on to the next generation. In practice this means that,

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.​

Why is that important to note? What did I say or what in the definition I gave made you feel this was important to point out?

This is a good working scientific definition of evolution; one that can be used to distinguish between evolution and similar changes that are not evolution. Another common short definition of evolution can be found in many textbooks:

What similar changes that are not evolution?

"In fact, evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next." - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology, 5th ed. 1989 Worth Publishers, p.974

Which is no different than my definition.

Don't fail to interpret my lack of acceptance of certain ideologies of TOE to a lack of understanding of it.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm curious how you account for the fact that non-Christians who have NDEs do not generally experience hell, but rather that peaceful experience?

Many neuroscientists will tell you, this is because the brain has the same response to lack of oxygen in believers and non believers and can bring about erratic charges, that cause these types of experiences.

Furthermore, people of different religious beliefs, tend to have NDE's that match their religious beliefs - the power of the mind!!!

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Here is the deal, which is pretty plain to see.

Some are ticked off, that the theory of evolution, does not somehow involve a God in the process and they think, because the theory leans on the evidence available, this is a knock against their God.

Never mind that this issue is the same for all scientific theories, which rely on evidence to support them. I don't see any qualms about no mention of God in germ theory (another of our well evidenced theories), but maybe it is because they don't want their God to be mentioned in the same vane with germs, who knows.

I find it bothersome, especially when I am trying to get my mind around so many biological terms. How can one maintain objectivity with all this invocation going on?

Anyway, the theory is based on evidence and if it makes one more comfortable, they are free to insert their God of choice into any theory they like, as the reason the theory works.

I'd prefer to keep them separated.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Your claim was that there was no branch in science that deals with that which I said was untrue and told you why. What don't you understand?

Which branch of science would that be?

I do not accept that.

 

[bhsmte]

I find it bothersome, especially when I am trying to get my mind around so many biological terms. How can one maintain objectivity with all this invocation going on?

I would think, the best way to get closer to this objectivity, is to stick with the evidence and understand it as best you can.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I would think, the best way to get closer to this objectivity, is to stick with the evidence and understand it as best you can.

Yes.

 

[Davian]

Absolutely.

Now most of mainstream science has to be wrong for your beliefs to be right.

Allow me to remain doubtful about that.

 

[lasthero]

I am familiar with Rawlings and his experiences which lead him to believe in Christ and how that came about. One dramatic NDE convinced him. He didn't have it himself. It is a very interesting experience.

Also, wait a minute - if I accept that these NDEs were actual trips to hell, isn't the inconsistent with the way it's supposed to happen? Isn't God supposed to judge you first, THEN send you to hell? The way the account seems to describe it, you just GO there.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Also, wait a minute - if I accept that these NDEs were actual trips to hell, isn't the inconsistent with the way it's supposed to happen? Isn't God supposed to judge you first, THEN send you to hell? The way the account seems to describe it, you just GO there.

No, Judgement day is not until after Jesus returns to earth. People who are uncovered by Jesus's pardon are sent immediately to hell according to Scripture. They will stay there until Christ's return and then they are judged. What they are judged and God sentences them to eternal separation from Him. People go immediately to heaven if they accept Christ's pardon and are judged according to what they did in life. Their salvation is not in question.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I would think, the best way to get closer to this objectivity, is to stick with the evidence and understand it as best you can.

Where does one acquire this evidence? If it is as simple as depicted that everyone should be able to "get it", then why do you tell someone to "understand it as best you can"?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Where does one acquire this evidence? If it is as simple as depicted that everyone should be able to "get it", then why do you tell someone to "understand it as best you can"?

If you participated in threads where the evidence is discussed, perhaps you wouldn't be asking that.
I'm only one person in millions, who are actually interested in the evidence which relates to Evolution.
Perhaps you'd like to join us on THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD & MACROEVOLUTION -- link to follow here.

Earlier discussions, are here, here, here and here. ( plus there are quite a few interesting ones by RickG and rjw.)

Thanks in advance.
Lewis.

 

[JacksBratt]

Also, wait a minute - if I accept that these NDEs were actual trips to hell, isn't the inconsistent with the way it's supposed to happen? Isn't God supposed to judge you first, THEN send you to hell? The way the account seems to describe it, you just GO there.

Non believers go to Hades first and stay there until the white throne judgement where all non believer from the beginning of time will be judged and found lacking and thrown into the lake of fire.

Before Christ crucifixion and resurrection, believers went to Hades as well but to a pleasant peaceful side. It was called Abraham's bosom.

See the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16: 19 to 31. These two were real people as in parable the names are never given for the characters. They could see each other but could not cross over either way. One was in torment the other in peace.

On the cross, Jesus told the believing thief that "on this day you will be with me in paradise". Since Christ went to hell and took the keys and overcame death, now believers go to heaven, paradise, as would this other crucified man.

This is what I believe, from what I have read. It may not be what others believe but its not a game breaker anyway.

Many of the NDE people say they see their life flash before them and this could be when they are judged. Some believers say that they saw their life and every decision and interaction with other people. They recalled their emotions and feelings as well as how the other person felt. In the end, all believers feel a love and peace that permeates everything.

If you think about it. For Christ to judge a non believer is one question, "did you believe in me"? Both will know the answer immediately and there would not need to be any other trial, and the punishment would be given.

Pretty quick unlike a court here on earth. The truth will be right there in the open, raw and naked.... a slam dunk as they say. Guilt will be instantaneously admitted.

 

[JacksBratt]

Now most of mainstream science has to be wrong for your beliefs to be right.

Allow me to remain doubtful about that.

Mainstream science? This changes as the centuries pass. The word of God is the rock I stand on. I have no doubt about that.

At the turn of the century in 1900 most transportation was still by horse, most heat was by fire, most communication by writing, most food was fresh and maybe an ice box. Not in total absolute but for the most part.

Now, 1014 years later, look at the changes. Science and knowledge has exploded. To top it off, the more we know the more we have questions for.

In the end, God's word stands.

 

[Davian]

Non believers go to Hades first and stay there until the white throne judgement where all non believer from the beginning of time will be judged and found lacking and thrown into the lake of fire.
...

Belief is not a choice. Why hold someone responsible for something beyond their control?

And, most of mainstream science has to be wrong.

Your religion needs some work there.

 

[JacksBratt]

Originally Posted by JacksBratt

Born once, die twice.

Born twice, die once.
​

Gibberish. Care to explain?

This is the gospel in a nutshell. Christ told Nicodemus he had to be born again. See the scripture below. Christians adopted this term and now it is a phrase of ridicule even though it has powerful truth.

This is why, if you are not born again and you die you will die the physical death (once) and later, a spiritual death (twice)

A believer is born again or born twice and only dies the physical death. There is no second spiritual death for people "born again".

Hope this clears up my gibberish.


John 3 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you participated in threads where the evidence is discussed, perhaps you wouldn't be asking that.
I'm only one person in millions, who are actually interested in the evidence which relates to Evolution.
Perhaps you'd like to join us on THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD & MACROEVOLUTION -- link to follow here.

Earlier discussions, are here, here, here and here. ( plus there are quite a few interesting ones by RickG and rjw.)

Thanks in advance.
Lewis.

I have been in many conversations where evidence is discussed.

 

[JacksBratt]

Belief is not a choice. Why hold someone responsible for something beyond their control?

I don't know if I believe this... I have heard many people state "I choose to believe otherwise".

Who determines what you believe if not yourself?

And, most of mainstream science has to be wrong.

Your religion needs some work there.

Don't worry, science will catch up.

 

[JacksBratt]

If that's the case, then you're confused.




Rawlings never never had an NDE himself.

Thanks for being patient on this one. I am surprised at the number of doctors that have had NDE's or studied them or wrote about them.

The doctor I am speaking of was a neurosurgeon who contracted meningitis.

Dr. Eben Alexander III

Eben Alexander III (born December 11, 1953) is an American neurosurgeon and the author of the book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife, in which he describes his 2008 near-death experience and asserts that science can and will determine that heaven really does exist.

 

[Davian]

I don't know if I believe this... I have heard many people state "I choose to believe otherwise".

Many people say, be home before sunset, but they don't believe that the Sun orbits the Earth.

Who determines what you believe if not yourself?

It's not who, it is what, such as convincing evidence. Belief is not a conscious choice. Would you hold me responsible for something beyond my control?

Don't worry, science will catch up.

Pull the other leg. It has bells on it.

 

[Davian]

Originally Posted by JacksBratt

Born once, die twice.

Born twice, die once.
​

This is the gospel in a nutshell. Christ told Nicodemus he had to be born again. See the scripture below. Christians adopted this term and now it is a phrase of ridicule even though it has powerful truth.

This is why, if you are not born again and you die you will die the physical death (once) and later, a spiritual death (twice)

A believer is born again or born twice and only dies the physical death. There is no second spiritual death for people "born again".

Hope this clears up my gibberish.


John 3 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

Religious opinion as "truth". There it is again, lewiscalledhimmaster.