Predestined

[BryanW92]

If there is no gospel minister then the Holy Spirit does it himself.

YES!! Absoutely!! I did not make a free will choice because it was implanted in me by the Holy Spirit. Same for you and every other believer out there, whether they have heard the gospel or not. God touches one person and leaves the person next to him untouched, and when you are called by God you are irresistably drawn to him. The person who is untouched does not care or even understand what he is missing.

If I had been given a free will choice on that day, I would have chosen to sleep in on Sunday, as I had done for 44 years prior to that day.

 

[JLR1300]

In the Bible predestination is used in three ways.

1. An event can be said to be predestined. The book of Acts tells us that the crucifixion was predestined by God.
2. A person can be predestined to become a child of God. Ephesians 1:5 says that we were "predestined to adoption as sons"
3. A Christian is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That will take place to some degree in this life but will be completed in the next. "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is..." 1st John.

As for being predestined because God sees that you will have a big impact... that's just speculation that isn't biblical in my opinion.

 

[DevoutOne]

Let your spirit tell you what you are meant to believe on this subject. I'll leave my beliefs at that.

 

[fozzy]

God touches one person and leaves the person next to him untouched

This is wrong on so many levels and the main reason why I reject Calvin's ideas. God does not leave the lost untouched to die in their sins. It is true that they never come to repentance but it is not for a lack of trying of God's part. Jesus said: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me John 12:32. Jesus thru the Holy Spirit is actively drawing all men to the foot of the cross. The job of the Holy Spirit is to: reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8. This is happening in the lives of the lost. They are being convicted of sin and God will put roadblock after roadblock in their lives to show them the path they are on is the wrong way. They blow thru every roadblock and reject the Spirit's influence but is that God's doing? NO it is not.

One question I often ask Calvinists and never get an answer is what would be the purpose of a final judgment based on works if God has already predetermined who is saved and who is lost. They have no answer for that because they do not even see human works as part of the equation. Their idea of standing before the judgment seat of Christ is just for show and mere theater. It's serves no purpose at all. We are required to believe in Jesus Christ for Salvation. Belief is a requirement and Calvin took a few isolated verses on God's sovereignty and ignored everything else the bible had to say on the subject.

 

[JLR1300]

"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

"I will draw all men..." The Jews thought that salvation was only for Jews... not really for the Gentile nations... Jesus wanted to straighten that false idea out. So He said that He would draw "all men" The question is ... Is that all types of men without distinction (both Jews and Gentiles) or is that every man without exception? All men... means all types of men without distinction, not necessarily every man without exception.

 

[fozzy]

"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

"I will draw all men..." The Jews thought that salvation was only for Jews... not really for the Gentile nations... Jesus wanted to straighten that false idea out. So He said that He would draw "all men" The question is ... Is that all types of men without distinction (both Jews and Gentiles) or is that every man without exception? All men... means all types of men without distinction, not necessarily every man without exception.

So God doesn't draw all men? You do realize that that is a denial of God's character of love. A God who actively draws one and leaves the other is a human God invented by man. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ someday and the lost will be shown how they rejected every effort by God to lead them to repentance. They are lost by their own efforts and rebellion not Gods.

 

[JLR1300]

So I need to explain something.... I do believe that God does reveal some knowledge to every man. He does convict people and show them that they are sinners and that they need righteousness and that a judgment is coming. So everyone is influenced to some extent by God's Spirit to come to Jesus. But when Jesus says "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him... the greek word is dragged.

Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draggs him. God influences everyone to some extent to believe on Christ but he only drags the elect. Even the english word draw means dragged. If I draw a sword I drag it out of the sheath. If I draw my Gun I pull it out by force... I drag it. If I draw water from a well I drag it out... I don't woo it.

Also Jesus used that same Greek word when He said if I am lifted up I will draw (drag) all men unto Me. Now if "all men" means every single man without exception rather than all kinds of men without distinction then Jesus is saying that He is going to drag every man to himself. But if that were true then everyman would be saved. So all men cannot mean that. Jesus is saying that if He is lifted up He will drag all kinds of men... both Jews and Gentiles... to Himself.

God influences everyone to some degree to come to Christ. However, being sinful they resist and so are without excuse. But in the case of the elect... He will not allow them to keep resisting.... so He drags them to Jesus.
Here is an illustration...

Imagine that there is an office with ten people working in it. Suppose a tornado is coming toward it. Now let's say that I run to the office and tell everyone to go to the basement. I do that because I care about all ten people. Now let's suppose no one will listen to me. However, in this story, one of the people is my son. So I grab my son and drag him down to the basement and so he is saved. Everyone else is killed by the tornado. Now it is true that I cared for everyone and wanted them to be saved... and I even warned them and influenced them.... but they all refused... including my son. But I cared even more for my son and I dragged Him. That is how it is with God. He warns everyone and has a degree of concern about them. But He goes further in the case of the elect.

Now You may say that that isn't really caring of God to not go as far with some as with others... but in your system of theology God only influences but does not drag... so how can you complain about God doing that in my theology? And in the case of the elect, how has God done them a wrong by saving them?

 

[fozzy]

Your entire premise is built on the idea that man plays no part in his or her own Salvation. This is found no where in scripture and if we look at the life of Christ he would be considered legalistic by your standards because he focused so much on works. His council to the seven churches is an indictment on your beliefs. Jesus said that he who overcomes sin will inherit eternal life and he that remains faithful until death will receive a crown of life. Nowhere did he ever say that he who is predestined will be saved. God knows the end from the beginning so when he looks at someone he can say they are predestined to life because he knows the future. You can't build an entire theology on 4 verses in the bible and ignore everything else. This would be presumption which is a counterfeit of true faith.

 

[BryanW92]

You do realize that that is a denial of God's character of love.

Not at all. We are all sinners, unfit to be in his presence. We all deserve our fate without God.

But, he loves us so he (for his own mysterious reasons) chooses to draw some to him (drag as JLR1300 points out so well). He provides his general revelation to all and look at how many can look at the beauty of his creation and only think that it was all created from random chance out of chaos and that they are merely monkeys with a few extra brain cells and some thumbs--thanks to pure chance!

Look at Revelation and you'll see that the unsaved are part of his plan too. But in the end, they only get what we all deserve. They are not burdened with more than they deserve and their punishment is not unjust.

 

[BryanW92]

God knows the end from the beginning so when he looks at someone he can say they are predestined to life because he knows the future.

You could be right there. But the end result is the same since God lives outside of time and we are constrained by it.

The Calvinist says that God chooses you, so you believe. You are saying that You chose God, so you believe, and he knew that you would choose him all along, so he counted you among his elect from the beginning of time.

So, who is charge? You or God. The Calvinist says God is sovereign because he chooses. You say that humans are sovereign because we choose.

 

[JLR1300]

Your entire premise is built on the idea that man plays no part in his or her own Salvation. This is found no where in scripture and if we look at the life of Christ he would be considered legalistic by your standards because he focused so much on works. His council to the seven churches is an indictment on your beliefs. Jesus said that he who overcomes sin will inherit eternal life and he that remains faithful until death will receive a crown of life. Nowhere did he ever say that he who is predestined will be saved. God knows the end from the beginning so when he looks at someone he can say they are predestined to life because he knows the future. You can't build an entire theology on 4 verses in the bible and ignore everything else. This would be presumption which is a counterfeit of true faith.

Yes, Jesus did say that the one who overcomes will receive the crown of life... but 1st John 5:4 says that "whatever is born of God overcomes the world..." So everyone who is born again overcomes. It's just the nature of the born again person to live for Jesus... at least to such an extent that God considers it to be "overcoming". But I'm not the judge of who has or hasn't reached that level.

So since everyone who is born again overcomes... in other words, once a person is saved they will always be saved... then what is the point of bringing up works with regards to salvation? Obviously, the fact that once a person is saved they are always saved harmonizes better with the idea of predestination than with free will. If man really has free will then the scripture couldn't teach that everyone who is born again overcomes. It would have to teach that in spite of the new birth a man still has free will and so might freely choose to stop following Christ.

And the Bible DOES teach that man plays no role in getting saved. He does have faith but faith is a gift.

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy... so then it is NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY... therefore, He has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then "why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O Man, who are you to reply against God?" (Romans 9)

God's mercy doesn't have to do with man's will ("it is not of Him who WILLS") nor of works ("nor of Him who RUNS")

God cannot look ahead through time and see who is willing to believe and who isn't and then choose them for salvation because "it is not of Him who wills" (that's why Jesus said God has to drag us!)

He cannot look through time and see which persons are willing to seek for Him and which ones aren't because "there are none who seek after God" (Romans 3)

He cannot look through time and see which people are good and which ones aren't and choose them because "there are none that doeth good, no not one." (Romans 3)

So since none do good, and since none seek God, and since it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs.....God cannot base election on what he sees in advance about the elect. It has to be an unconditional election.

We are not Christ's sheep because we believe in Him
... we believe in Him because we are His chosen sheep.

In John 10:26 Jesus explained to the people who didn't believe in Him WHY they didn't believe. He said, "But you do not believe BECAUSE you are not of My sheep." Notice Jesus didn't say that you are not My sheep because you do not believe... but just the opposite... you do not believe BECAUSE you are not My sheep. Being a chosen sheep causes belief in Christ.

That is why Acts 13:48 says " And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

 

[fozzy]

So, who is charge? You or God. The Calvinist says God is sovereign because he chooses. You say that humans are sovereign because we choose.

This is just one of the many errors of John Calvin. He proudly proclaimed that God is sovereign in all things and this is false. Satan's rebellion in heaven is proof that God's divine will can be violated and Adam and Eve's fall into sin is even more proof. Sin itself is all the proof necessary that God is not sovereign. Did God foresee that sin would happen? - Yes, because Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Did God ordain for sin to happen? - No, Satan was created perfect until iniquity was found in him and Adam and Eve were created perfect until they listened to the deceiver and fell into unbelief. Hopefully you haven't come to the point where you see sin as being ordained by God because I know many Calvinists that do. Once this point is reached there is really not much left that can be done. John Calvin was really not a Christian. He was more of a philosopher like the Greek philosophers that came before him. If Paul was alive in his day he would have condemned him for perverting the gospel. Calvinists have a more sophisticated and educated form of unbelief but unbelief none the less.

 

[fozzy]

In John 10:26 Jesus explained to the people who didn't believe in Him WHY they didn't believe. He said, "But you do not believe BECAUSE you are not of My sheep." Notice Jesus didn't say that you are not My sheep because you do not believe... but just the opposite... you do not believe BECAUSE you are not My sheep. Being a chosen sheep causes belief in Christ.

That is why Acts 13:48 says " And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

The bible also says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9. This is not what Calvinism teaches. They teach that God desires only the elect to come to repentance and everyone else is left to die in their sins without the needed help from God. The bible also says that Jesus is the savior of the world including everyone, elect and non-elect alike. Jesus died for the lost and that may have been in vein because they never come to repentance but in the judgment they will be shown that a full and complete pardon was offered to them and they despised it and threw it away just like Esau. The bible says that God hated Esau because he represents all the lost. The birthright was theirs which symbolizes Christ's shed blood for them but they threw it away for the pleasures of this world. They are lost for their own sin and God is not culpable.

 

[JLR1300]

One of the reasons I accept much of Calvinistic theology (but not all) is because the Calvinists have good explainations of the verses that appear to disprove predestination, but the Arminians, as well as people like you, do not have good explanations of the verses that appear to prove Predestination. The people on your side simply cannot explain the verses that teach election. So what you tend to do is to just quote other verses.

For instance, even though I believe in a universal atonement of sorts, the verses about Christ dying for the world do not disprove the Calvinistic doctrine of particular redemption. If you study the beliefs of the Jews in the first century, they believed that Salvation was basically just for the Jews, not for the world at large... not for the Gentile nations. So when Jesus said that He would die for the world, it simply meant that Christ was going to die for men of all nations. It meant that he was going to die for Gentiles as well as Jews. Now I personally believe that Christ's blood is available to everyone... but that's not the point. The point is that these verses you quote are very, very easily explainable.

Another example would be your quote of 2nd Peter 3:9 about God not being willing that any should perish. If you look at Peter's letters, it is clear that they both are written to the Church.... that is, to the elect. In 1st Peter, Peter starts out the letter by saying that he is writing to the elect. In 2nd Peter, Peter says that He is writing "to those who have obtained a like precious faith..."

So Peter is writing to the elect. Then he says in chapter 3 that the Lord is not being slow to come again but is simply being long-suffering... Peter says... "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some couunt slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Notice the words "TOWARD US"...
The context is that Christ is not being slow to come again. Instead He is being Patient TOWARD US (the elect) not willing that any (of us) should perish but that all (of us, the elect) should come to repentance.

Jesus is delaying His coming until all of the elect repent. When the last elect person repents, He will come again. Now I can prove that this HAS to be the meaning. Here is how....

If Jesus is delaying his coming until everyone everywhere repents then He will NEVER be able to come again. That is the case because there will always be children coming to the age where they can understand the gospel. So Christ will have to wait on them to repent. But by the time they can repent other Children will be reaching that age, and so on. It will never stop. There will always be lost people who Christ has to wait upon. So that interpretation is silly and unworkable.

The only view that makes any sense is that Christ is waiting until the last elect person repents. When that happens there will be no more reason to wait no matter how many people are still living in the world.

You see, Calvinists can easily explain the verses you quote. All you have to do is look at the context and the situation. You just quote stuff out of context. However, you do not have good explanations for the verses we quote. For instance, I notice that you did not have an explanation for Acts 13:48 which says... "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." And you also didn't explain why Jesus told the people who didn't believe in Him that the reason they didn't believe was because they were not his sheep.

And by the way, notice that Peter in 1st Peter chapter 1 said that He is writing ... "to those who have OBTAINED A similar precious faith" Notice that their faith in Christ was OBTAINED. (That means they didn't produce it.... they obtained it as a gift from God)

Finally, to imply that Calvin wasn't saved is a ridiculous statement. How do you know? Martin Luther also believed in the doctrine of unconditional election. He agreed with Calvin so much that he wrote a book called "the bondage of the will". You ought to read it sometime. So do you think he was unsaved too? You think that the people who started the Protestant reformation weren't Christians???

 

[fozzy]

First off I have no problem with election or the elect. The word elect simply means chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. There is an elect of God that Peter said he was part of and Jesus even mentions them in the Olivet discourse. The elect are the saved and the non-elect are the lost. This is spoken of all throughout scripture in many other ways such as the sheep/goats, wheat/tares all meaning the same, the saved and the lost. The problem I have with Calvinism and it's teaching is they will ignore the verses that speak of Christ dying and saving the world and even go to the point where they change the meaning of the word world to mean the elect only. So I have no problem with the verses you quoted. My problem is with your monorgistic tendencies that lead to God arbitrarily saving one and damning the other. Calvinism cannot give the 'why' people are saved and the 'why' people are lost seeing we are all sinners. You also have not addressed my many objections including the Calvinistic perspective of a final judgment based on works. A judgment where God will reward one and damn the other. The implication is that our works determine our final fate not God's predetermination.

 

[dabro]

I have free will even tho I am elected. Since I have free will I have tried my hardest to forget God, I cannot since i was chosen.....I don't know much about Calvin but I do know that what I suffered in 05 produced the peaceable fruits of righteousness. To those who HAVE been TRAINED by it. I think you both are right. God does put stop signs in our life, some just simply ignore them. I however heard my calling after much pain and deep reflection upon myself......I had free will before God showed me He is coming again. Once I grasped and accepted His invite to sit at His table it was no longer I who lived but, Christ within me.

 

[BryanW92]

My problem is with your monorgistic tendencies that lead to God arbitrarily saving one and damning the other.

...

A judgment where God will reward one and damn the other. The implication is that our works determine our final fate not God's predetermination.

How is that any different from the Arminian view that we simply have to choose to be saved and we are? I could have a cancer scare and receive Christ out of fear and then the biopsy comes back negative. I chose. Yes, I chose out of fear, but is that any different than the person who chooses to walk up the altar because of a good fire and damnation sermon?

Since we can't earn salvation, every way that humans can imagine that we obtain it is very arbitrary. As JLR pointed out, the big difference is that Calvinists address the beliefs of non-Calvinists, but non-Calvinists merely proclaim that we are wrong--over and over again. You ask for scriptural evidence and we provide it and you declare that you don't accept it.

Fortunately, you don't have to be a Calvinist to be in the Elect. Every Calvinist I know has made a public profession of faith, so if the personal "choosing" is all that is needed, we did that. You'll never hear a Calvinist telling people, "If you are Elect, you better not do anything because that is evidence of a lack of faith." In fact, it quite the opposite. We tell our poeple that if you are in the Elect, then the Great Commission falls heavily on your shoulders to carry it out.

I was a Methodist, so I know exactly why non-Calvinists do not like Calvinism. I taught classes on Calvinism to my Methodist church. Oddly enough, no one ever bothers to teach why Arminianism is wrong in my Calvinist church. It is because they do not fear the implications of an all-powerful God.

 

[JLR1300]

Fozzy said...

" My problem is with your monorgistic tendencies that lead to God arbitrarily saving one and damning the other. Calvinism cannot give the 'why' people are saved and the 'why' people are lost seeing we are all sinners. You also have not addressed my many objections including the Calvinistic perspective of a final judgment based on works. A judgment where God will reward one and damn the other. The implication is that our works determine our final fate not God's predetermination."

Hello...
Well, the reason the unsaved are lost is because they are sinners. They happily sin everyday and they refuse to quit and they refuse to seek God and they refuse to trust in Christ for salvation.

God isn't forcing them to sin and He isn't forcing them to refuse to seek for God and He isn't forcing them to refuse to pray to Jesus for mercy. They happily do those things. So the reason they are lost is just because of their sin.

The reason the elect are saved is because of GRACE. Grace means unmerited undeserved favor. Salvation is just a gift.

Here is how it works. Let's say I am a governor of a state. Let's say that 10 men have murdered people and are on death row. Every one of them deserves to be there because they are wicked. Now let's say that on Christmas day I decide to pardon one of them. The reason for this is simply because I am a kind Governor. So I simply choose to let the man in the third cell go free.... not because he is better than the other murderers but simply because I want give a free gift. As governor I have the right to pardon people.

Now I could pardon all of the criminals but that would reflect badly on my character by making me look indifferent to evil. Or I could pardon none of them. Since they are all murderers I have every right to do that. But I just want to be gracious....it's Christmas day. So I pardon the guy in the third cell. What is the reason? Grace. I just want to be gracious.

That is how it is with salvation. All men are evil. Forgiveness is there if we will humble ourselves and come to Christ for mercy. But we don't want it. We happily reject Christ and happily continue our rebellion against God. We cannot blame God for our condemnation because we refuse to seek for God. And we happily reject whatever light God has revealed to us. So God would be completely just in condemning us all.

However, just because He is the sovereign Governor of the universe and just because He wants to be gracious he chooses certain persons and pardons them. The reason they are saved is just grace. The only reason you can give for grace is grace. The Holy Spirit is sent to the elect and He gives them faith. So they trust Christ to save them and are saved. They are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH. They are not saved by faith... they are saved by grace, THROUGH faith. Grace is the reason, faith is the occasion.

Now it is true that after God gives the elect faith and justifies them the Holy Spirit enters them and produces fruit in their lives. So fruit is an evidence of salvation. So when the elect die.... it is just natural that, if you examine their lives, you will see good works. So if God wants to, He can use that in the coming judgement.

However, I question God's using works as the real method used for the judgement. Saved people do get judged on the basis of works for how many rewards they will get in heaven... but that is not about salvation.

The non-elect will be judged on the basis of works with regards to eternal life or death... Since they are sinners who love sin and happily reject Christ and the offer of salvation they will be condemned.

Calvinism increases the number of those saved. With Non-Calvinism, God's Spirit shows the sinner his need of Christ and then just leaves it up to the sinner to seek God and call upon Him. But since none do good and none seek God, no one will be saved. But with Calvinism God "drags" some of those people to himself. It is all grace. So at least this way SOME will be saved. If it weren't for GRACE, none would be saved.

One final thing... I realize that it is hard to accept the idea that God chooses us not based on our merit. Of course, if he did choose us based on our merit, He would choose none. But still the idea is hard to accept that salvation is in God's hands. One of the things that makes it hard to accept is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. That is where I differ. I am very open to the idea of annihilationism and I can answer most all of the verses about it very well. However, on this forum we are not allowed to debate that topic.
Anyway... have a great day.

 

[dabro]

It's my birthday BTW.....Go figure on April fools day. I guess I am a fool, a Fool for Christ......

 

[fozzy]

How is that any different from the Arminian view that we simply have to choose to be saved and we are? I could have a cancer scare and receive Christ out of fear and then the biopsy comes back negative. I chose. Yes, I chose out of fear, but is that any different than the person who chooses to walk up the altar because of a good fire and damnation sermon?

Since we can't earn salvation, every way that humans can imagine that we obtain it is very arbitrary. As JLR pointed out, the big difference is that Calvinists address the beliefs of non-Calvinists, but non-Calvinists merely proclaim that we are wrong--over and over again. You ask for scriptural evidence and we provide it and you declare that you don't accept it.

Choosing to be saved for lack of a better term is not like going down to the local dairy queen and 'choosing' my favorite blizzard. I prefer the word surrender and this is something that happens in the inner most part of our being when we surrender our heart to Jesus and experience the new birth. Everything we experience as Christians is a gift from God. Faith is a gift. Love is a gift and all the fruits of the Spirit are gifts. I can't take the credit for those things because they come from God. But, and isn't there always a but. God does not surrender my heart for me. He doesn't drag me against my will kicking and screaming to heaven. This is not realistic. You say that God does everything and in a way that is true but if he is all powerful and able to convert you why doesn't he do it for the thousands of others who live in sin? To say that God is capable of converting you and also capable of converting others but refusing to do so for some unknown reason is hypocritical. The bible answers this question by stating that some believe and some do not. God did the best he could and came up short. His success rate with the angels was 66% seeing that a third fell which is good but not great.