Predestined

[fozzy]

Hello...
Well, the reason the unsaved are lost is because they are sinners. They happily sin everyday and they refuse to quit and they refuse to seek God and they refuse to trust in Christ for salvation.

God isn't forcing them to sin and He isn't forcing them to refuse to seek for God and He isn't forcing them to refuse to pray to Jesus for mercy. They happily do those things. So the reason they are lost is just because of their sin.

This is false and you just flipped the script. By your own admission God is the one who 'chooses' to save the elect so you can't turn around and say the lost are now lost because of their sin. The lost are lost because for some reason known only to John Calvin God 'chose' not to save them. We're all sinners from the axe murderer to the brain surgeon so no one is getting a pass. The elect are just as deserving of hell as everyone else so God is the reason behind everything because you have removed the human being from the equation. Hopefully you can see that but I'm not holding my breath.

Calvinism increases the number of those saved. With Non-Calvinism, God's Spirit shows the sinner his need of Christ and then just leaves it up to the sinner to seek God and call upon Him. But since none do good and none seek God, no one will be saved. But with Calvinism God "drags" some of those people to himself. It is all grace. So at least this way SOME will be saved. If it weren't for GRACE, none would be saved.

One final thing... I realize that it is hard to accept the idea that God chooses us not based on our merit. Of course, if he did choose us based on our merit, He would choose none. But still the idea is hard to accept that salvation is in God's hands.

Once again false and contrary to scripture. The bible says over and over that Christ is the savior of all men, especially of those that believe. Christ died for the lost and you don't believe that. You accept Calvin's take on the subject and refuse to accept the idea that Christ has in fact died for all people and he follows them around their entire lives urging them to accept the gift of his Salvation. Some accept this gift by faith and many more refuse by unbelief. Also faith is not merit based. The works of the flesh are merit based and I have never advocated the works of the flesh. I don't gain points with God by my faith. Jesus said if you can believe all things are possible and when the Son of man returns will he find faith on the earth? Implying that very few have genuine faith.

One of the things that makes it hard to accept is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. That is where I differ. I am very open to the idea of annihilationism and I can answer most all of the verses about it very well. However, on this forum we are not allowed to debate that topic.
Anyway... have a great day.

I actually agree with this but I can't say it too loudly or I will be branded as unorthodox like I even care. lol

 

[BryanW92]

Choosing to be saved for lack of a better term is not like going down to the local dairy queen and 'choosing' my favorite blizzard. I prefer the word surrender and this is something that happens in the inner most part of our being when we surrender our heart to Jesus and experience the new birth. Everything we experience as Christians is a gift from God. Faith is a gift. Love is a gift and all the fruits of the Spirit are gifts. I can't take the credit for those things because they come from God. But, and isn't there always a but. God does not surrender my heart for me. He doesn't drag me against my will kicking and screaming to heaven. This is not realistic. You say that God does everything and in a way that is true but if he is all powerful and able to convert you why doesn't he do it for the thousands of others who live in sin? To say that God is capable of converting you and also capable of converting others but refusing to do so for some unknown reason is hypocritical. The bible answers this question by stating that some believe and some do not. God did the best he could and came up short. His success rate with the angels was 66% seeing that a third fell which is good but not great.

Are you even reading what you are writing as you rail against Calvinism? This post above actually addresses most of the things that made me dissatisfied with the Arminian explanation of salvation. I hated Calvinism as you do, so I refused to even consider it. Until one day, I decided that I would listen to the Calnvinists as they explain it, instead of just listening to anti-Calvinists as they explain it.

 

[BryanW92]

The lost are lost because for some reason known only to John Calvin God 'chose' not to save them.

The reasons are known only to God, just as the reasons why a murderer lives to old age and a child dies of cancer, or the reasons why a train crashes and half the passengers survive while the rest die. God's plan always seems arbitrary to us because we are too small to see the big picture. Calvin just accepted that there is a big picture.

 

[BryanW92]

You accept Calvin's take on the subject and refuse to accept the idea that Christ has in fact died for all people and he follows them around their entire lives urging them to accept the gift of his Salvation. Some accept this gift by faith and many more refuse by unbelief.

God is not a beggar. In my own personal conversion, I did not experience your weak beggar God. I experienced the God who can do all things.

 

[fozzy]

Are you even reading what you are writing as you rail against Calvinism? This post above actually addresses most of the things that made me dissatisfied with the Arminian explanation of salvation. I hated Calvinism as you do, so I refused to even consider it. Until one day, I decided that I would listen to the Calnvinists as they explain it, instead of just listening to anti-Calvinists as they explain it.

I do not hate Calvinists! But there slicing and dicing of the atonement is nonsense. 4 point Calvinists who accept that the atonement is universal I usually don't have a problem with.

 

[fozzy]

God is not a beggar. In my own personal conversion, I did not experience your weak beggar God. I experienced the God who can do all things.

Belief is a requirement whether you or John Calvin likes it or not. Sinful, depraved and fallen human beings are required to believe in Jesus Christ for Salvation. The only verses in the bible that speak of being saved include the word 'belief' not predestined. I almost have to come across as legalistic to deal with Calvinistic extremism. You can't read the NT on its own you have to see it thru the eyes of someone else. Your faith is in John Calvin which is no faith at all.

 

[BryanW92]

Belief is a requirement whether you or John Calvin likes it or not. Sinful, depraved and fallen human beings are required to believe in Jesus Christ for Salvation. The only verses in the bible that speak of being saved include the word 'belief' not predestined. I almost have to come across as legalistic to deal with Calvinistic extremism. You can't read the NT on its own you have to see it thru the eyes of someone else. Your faith is in John Calvin which is no faith at all.

John Calvin and I believe in belief as a requirement. The only place where we differ from you is the timeline. Which came first, regeneration or faith? You say that faith precedes regeneration. We say that regeneration precedes faith. Is it that important of a distinction for you have all this anger towards Calvinists? Look at what you admit it forces you to become just to "deal" with Calvinism. Is that a Christian way to behave?

I am active in several ministries that I was in before I became Reformed. Almost everyone in these ministries are Arminian or Lutheran and I do not feel the need to become angry and legalistic just to "deal" with them. I love them and understand the differences in our theology (as I stated a few sentences ago) and recognize that we are all Christians and that our beliefs with regards to the salvation timeline does not matter.

My faith is not in John Calvin any more than it was in John Wesley when I was Methodist. That is insulting and I'm really getting sick you saying that. Find a new ad hominem attack, please.

 

[BryanW92]

I do not hate Calvinists! But there slicing and dicing of the atonement is nonsense. 4 point Calvinists who accept that the atonement is universal I usually don't have a problem with.

So, as long as I agree with YOU, then I can be a Calvinist. Thank you, my lord. Your grace knows very few bounds.

And for the umpteenth time, Calvinists do NOT decide who is in the Elect. In fact, we assume and state uncategorically that EVERYONE who believes must be in the Elect. EVERYONE! EVERYONE. Can you understand that?

We do not think that God drags the person kicking and screaming off to heaven who doesn't want to go.

We do not think that God casts out the person who truly wants him because that person did not appear on some cosmic Schindler's List.

You have decided what Calvinism is and you don't care to hear what Calvinists say. You only hear what is created in your own imagination.

 

[fozzy]

I will not be browbeaten by you and in case you haven't figured it out yet this is a non-denominational forum so I do not have to subscribe to your beliefs. You do not defend the gospel or Jesus or Peter or Paul. You defend John Calvin a man who came over a thousand years later. It is becoming clear that you are so emotionally attached to this subject that you cannot even have an open dialogue. You may not be able to see this because you are too 'emotionally attached' but the reason Calvinism is rejected to a large degree by Christians is because they present a skewed picture of God's character. He is not the loving Father of the bible but the indifferent Patriarch who loves his favorite son and could care less about everyone else. He is not the good Samaritan who does all he can to save the lost but the prejudicial Levite who passes by on the other side. This is the bed that John Calvin made so you have to lie in it. Your God is the plantation owner who loves one group and despises the other. He is not the God of the bible who created all men and then when mankind was lost he died for all men and did everything that Divinity could do to save all men. You've never known that God but if you open the bible and take off your John Calvin spectacles you may learn of him, it's not too late.

 

[BryanW92]

I will not be browbeaten by you and in case you haven't figured it out yet this is a non-denominational forum so I do not have to subscribe to your beliefs. You do not defend the gospel or Jesus or Peter or Paul.

That is simply not true. I am not trying to make you subscribe to my beliefs. My posts above state that our personal beliefs with regard to the timeline of salvation do not really matter. I still stand by that. I am only defending my beliefs and not trying to make you accept them as your own. Can you truthfully claim in good conscience that you are doing the same?

It is likewise ludicrous to claim that I do not defend the gospel. JLR1300 has quoted many verses of scripture (and I have agreed with him) and you have blown them off as immaterial, so it is you who does not defend the WHOLE gospel.

 

[BryanW92]

You've never known that God but if you open the bible and take off your John Calvin spectacles you may learn of him, it's not too late.

I wish you would read my posts before you respond. I was Methodist...Wesleyan...Arminian....long before I was Calvinist. I taught against Calvinism. I was strongly anti-Calvinism, as you are now.

And I had questions that could not be answered. I searched for answers in the bible and the bible....yes the Holy Bible....pointed me towards the idea of the Elect and how it is much more just than someone being fortunate enough to be born in a place where the gospel is taught and then making some declaration of faith. I did not believe it and kept searching, but everything pointed towards election.

That was when I became a Calvinist. I am not wearing Calvin spectacles any more than you are wearing Arminius spectacles, but I have found the answers to the questions that Wesleyanism could not answer. You found your answers elsewhere..or more likely, you chose to not ask the questions.

 

[BryanW92]

He is not the good Samaritan who does all he can to save the lost but the prejudicial Levite who passes by on the other side.

LOL. Do you read what you write? The God who can speak a universe into creation "does all he can to save the lost" and he fails with 3/4 of the people on the Earth? (that is the more than 2/3 who are definitely not Christian plus the percentage of Christians who are only cultural Christians and check Christian on a census form but have never made a declaration of faith).

If the remaining 1/4 are not the Elect, but just the ones he succeeded to save, then his success rate is pretty bad.

I refuse to believe that God is that weak and powerless.

 

[JLR1300]

Hi.

Concerning God's work to save sinners Fozzy said...

" God did the best he could and came up short."

Any theology that leads you to make a statement like this needs to be re-examined.

 

[Wryetui]

I don't know what to say about this, isn't it frightening and unfair that God is supposed to have predestined people and they can do nothing about it their fate?

 

[pescador]

I don't know what to say about this, isn't it frightening and unfair that God is supposed to have predestined people and they can do nothing about it their fate?

Can't God choose which people he wants to adopt into his family? Can't he take the same "lump of clay" and fashion the "pot" that he wants? Not all who hear the Gospel (and all will eventually hear it) will believe it and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. God knows in advance who will accept his son and who won't. It's neither frightening or unfair, it' the justice of God.

 

[BryanW92]

I don't know what to say about this, isn't it frightening and unfair that God is supposed to have predestined people and they can do nothing about it their fate?

I'm more frightened of the idea that there are people who are so full of evil that they can hear the call of God, listen to the gospel, and still refuse him. These people live among us and, in many cases, are elected to office to lead us. The doctrine of Free Will says that 3 out of 4 people living on Earth right now are in that category.

The clueless reprobate who never hears the call of God and just lives in his own humanism isn't nearly as bad.

 

[fozzy]

That is simply not true. I am not trying to make you subscribe to my beliefs. My posts above state that our personal beliefs with regard to the timeline of salvation do not really matter. I still stand by that. I am only defending my beliefs and not trying to make you accept them as your own. Can you truthfully claim in good conscience that you are doing the same?

The timeline of Salvation? Are you following along at all? I want to know who was saved at the cross? Calvinists proclaim that Jesus only died for the elect and the bible proclaims that Jesus died for all people. If I have mis-characterized your beliefs please set me straight. Did Jesus die for the whole world on the cross or just a subset of the whole world?

 

[fozzy]

And I had questions that could not be answered. I searched for answers in the bible and the bible....yes the Holy Bible....pointed me towards the idea of the Elect and how it is much more just than someone being fortunate enough to be born in a place where the gospel is taught and then making some declaration of faith. I did not believe it and kept searching, but everything pointed towards election.

We have been here before and I believe that I stated that it is the Holy Spirit that leads all men to Christ not time or chance or a roll of the dice. So this we be the third time I have had to re-state my position. I'm sure it won't be the last.

 

[fozzy]

LOL. Do you read what you write? The God who can speak a universe into creation "does all he can to save the lost" and he fails with 3/4 of the people on the Earth? (that is the more than 2/3 who are definitely not Christian plus the percentage of Christians who are only cultural Christians and check Christian on a census form but have never made a declaration of faith).

If the remaining 1/4 are not the Elect, but just the ones he succeeded to save, then his success rate is pretty bad.

I refuse to believe that God is that weak and powerless.

God failed with 1/3 of the angels so your ideas on sovereignty have just gone out the window. The Divine will can and has been violated by angels and men.

 

[Wryetui]

So I believe in Christ and God, so following the calvinist statement, am I one of God's chosen people?