Afghan woman set ablaze by mob for burning Koran

[Sneggardly209]

seriously dude...? you cherry pick one case of something like that happening in the west to make your point, and the people involved happen to be african. you literally made my point for me. you can take the man out of africa, but you cant always take the african out of the man.

see if you want to prove me wrong you have to find something like that happening that doesnt involve african immigrants. then you have to find enough cases of it happening for it to be considered a problem attributable to christian teachings instead of just your standard percentage of crazy folk who exist in every subculture.

in islam the violence and abuse is rampant. killing and torturing gays. abusing and limiting the rights of women. killing apostates. shariah law. all of the terrorist groups. killing people for seeking a "western" education. stoning people. burning them alive. decapitations. honor killings. female genital mutilation.

all that violence and evil. how delusional do people have to be to try to equate modern islam with modern christianity. and i dont like christianity. but ive never had a christian interested in chopping off my head. been a few who wanted to see me burn in hell, but at least they were nice enough to let me die of natural causes before going there.

you do realize people like you would be killed in many islamic countries, right

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I couldn't be motivated to read the rest of the conversation, but I'd like to give you my own personal opinion on that last question: not every Christian believes in the infallibility of the Bible. I wouldn't really understand the point of Jesus' coming, his message of kindness, tolerance and forgiveness - and then go back to that OT jibber about killing homosexuals. I might be part of a silent minority, but I don't believe that all Christians believe the Bible needs to be interpreted in a literal sense.

I agree with you about the point of Jesus' coming.

But then why would you put your faith into anything the bible says, especially when it's debatable amongst biblical scholars that Jesus even existed? It makes no sense.

Of course, you're right in saying that denominations add "spin". The common denominator of Christianity is the belief in Jesus Christ as a divinity - and therefore seeking to act according to his will and to follow in his footsteps.
The wide variety of different sects is the result of a combination of:
a) differences in beliefs as to what Jesus actually commanded/did
b) differences in beliefs as to how these ideas can be practically implemented
c) incorporation of cultural "non-Jesus-based" ideas

Thank for including "c)". Kudos.

I kind of wonder why you're very focused on this point, but I'm assuming that you're trying to say that the Bible is as "bad" as the Quoran or something. I haven't read enough of the Old Testament and of the Quoran to judge that, but I do believe that there is a difference between considering a pedophile warlord (Mohammad) that performed genocide a "perfect human being" and those who consider Jesus to be someone to look up to.

The problem I have is that some Christians state that the USA is a Christian nation, and that the bible should be the basis of American's morals and the USA's laws.

Considering how immoral the bible is in places (Even Jesus condones slavery when he tells slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones), I find this a frightening prospect, and try to show Christians that the bible is not moral using evidence and reason. Sadly this rarely overcomes blind faith.

Some Christians also insist on having creationism taught as part of science and the discrediting of the ToE as part of science. The damage that will do to the USA's economy is frightening.

As for the Matthew-Quote you provided - not really my opinion, but just playing avocatus diabolus here: It refers to the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and its succession (i.e. the New Covenant).

Of course. If you didn't, you would have to justify the immorality of the flawed God of the OT with the concept of (near?) perfect God you worship.

If you listen to members of the Clergy Project, it is these contradictions that led them from the irrationality of faith, to basing their beliefs on evidence and reason. Interestingly enough, they are all glad they made this transition.

 

[Patchworks]

Kabul is pretty liberal and cosmopolitan compared to 90% of the country. Women don't have to walk completely covered up in that city. This is shocking news to me.

Just another example of peace in Islam.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

seriously dude...? you cherry pick one case of something like that happening in the west to make your point, and the people involved happen to be african. you literally made my point for me. you can take the man out of africa, but you cant always take the african out of the man.

If you think that, then your reasoning is seriously flawed.

see if you want to prove me wrong you have to find something like that happening that doesnt involve african immigrants. then you have to find enough cases of it happening for it to be considered a problem attributable to christian teachings instead of just your standard percentage of crazy folk who exist in every subculture.

No I don't. As you are undoubtedly well aware, in every Islamic incident there will be a way to connect it in some way to a fundamentalist Islamic state. You just cherry pick the connections that make your argument.

in islam the violence and abuse is rampant. killing and torturing gays. abusing and limiting the rights of women. killing apostates. shariah law. all of the terrorist groups. killing people for seeking a "western" education. stoning people. burning them alive. decapitations. honor killings. female genital mutilation.

1. So you are saying American Christians have never killed and tortured gays in the USA? Really?

2. Are you saying some American Christians don't limit the rights of women in the USA?

3. Are you saying there aren't American Christians want to the USA's laws to be based on scripture, and that there aren't existing laws that are based on scripture?

4. Are you saying American Christians don't commit terrorist acts in the USA?

5. Are you saying American Christians don't commit male genital mutilation?

6. Are you saying American Christians have never supported slavery?

Followers of your faith, of Christianity, are also guilty of every evil you put at Islam's door. You think Islam is horrible for these evils, so why don't you think the same of Christianity, other than hypocrisy or irrational belief?

 

[Supreme]

Disgusting. To the point where it is almost sickening. My girlfriend is from Afghanistan. Women there pretty much have it worse than anywhere in the world. It'd be fair to say that 13th century peasant English women had it better than modern Afghan women. I can't see how anyone with an ounce of humanity could do something so despicable.

Every religion, including Islam, values human life immensely- that is one of the great things about our shared human religions, and it's something that we just cannot find outside of faith. It's such a shame that people mistakenly put books before people, which is not what God of any religion would condone.

 

[Senator Cheese]

I agree with you about the point of Jesus' coming.

But then why would you put your faith into anything the bible says, especially when it's debatable amongst biblical scholars that Jesus even existed? It makes no sense.

This is a fairly personal question, and we're diverging well away from the topic at hand, but in a nutshell I found to Christ two years ago after being a staunch atheist through a series of experiences that I could not brush off as mere "coincidence" anymore.
Do I believe in Christ? Yes, most certainly. I believe in the two laws he has held above all others, loving God above all and loving your neighbor as you love yourself. My personal interpretation is that loving God equates humility, and loving your neighbor can be considered to be a description of compassion. I consider these values to be universal and the key to being a good person.
I don't really think God cares much about what we believe beyond that, though. Otherwise every compassionate and humble Buddhist would be forsaken, and that's simply not the way a loving God works.

The problem I have is that some Christians state that the USA is a Christian nation, and that the bible should be the basis of American's morals and the USA's laws.

Some advocate legislation based on empirical criminological studies, other base it on their own perceptions of injustice (feminism, social class theories), others on blind faith.
I don't believe that blind faith has a place in politics, but then again I think Christians are just one of many ideologically influenced groups that are fighting for their piece of cake. :/

Considering how immoral the bible is in places (Even Jesus condones slavery when he tells slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones), I find this a frightening prospect, and try to show Christians that the bible is not moral using evidence and reason. Sadly this rarely overcomes blind faith.

Like I said, I find it important to read the Bible in knowledge of its context - knowing that it contains a vast variety of accounts that have been mystified, demystified, remystified and distorted as the millenia went by. Jesus' legacy doesn't depend on the letters of a book - after all, Jesus didn't sit down and write the book himself.

I think we'll both agree that compassion and humility are universal tenets on which we can base legislation. Anything that goes beyond that should be subject to careful discourse - but then again, I wonder what legislation Christians want derived off the Old Testament?

Homosexual rights come to mind, but then again I wouldn't mind revamping the tax system completely to suit modern family constitutions (i.e. applying tax breaks for children, not solely for marriage).

Some Christians also insist on having creationism taught as part of science and the discrediting of the ToE as part of science. The damage that will do to the USA's economy is frightening.

Gender Studies, Creationism, Homeopathy and Alternative Medicine are all fringe sciences that have gained momentum. I'm hoping you oppose all of these beliefs as much as you oppose Creationism.

Of course. If you didn't, you would have to justify the immorality of the flawed God of the OT with the concept of (near?) perfect God you worship.

Yup. Pretty much.
The "problem" of reconciling the OT with the teachings of the NT are probably something that every Christian faces. It's a soft spot that can be approached on so many different levels.
In the end, though, I believe man is fallible and the Bible was written and the Bible is read and interpreted by man.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Disgusting. To the point where it is almost sickening. My girlfriend is from Afghanistan. Women there pretty much have it worse than anywhere in the world. It'd be fair to say that 13th century peasant English women had it better than modern Afghan women. I can't see how anyone with an ounce of humanity could do something so despicable.

Every religion, including Islam, values human life immensely- that is one of the great things about our shared human religions, and it's something that we just cannot find outside of faith. It's such a shame that people mistakenly put books before people, which is not what God of any religion would condone.

Think that is bad? Ever hear about the dancing boys of Afghanistan? Their morality is skewered for sure.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Every religion, including Islam, values human life immensely- that is one of the great things about our shared human religions, and it's something that we just cannot find outside of faith. It's such a shame that people mistakenly put books before people, which is not what God of any religion would condone.

The Islam that was founded by a warlord that killed more than 700 prisoners of war by decapitation?
The same Islam whose adherents still praise this warlord as a "perfect being" whose lifestyle every Muslim must try to keep?

Islam values the life of their believers.
The value of non-believers or sinners isn't worth a dime. This is seen in the punishments for apostasy, homosexuality, or the incapability to pay Dschizya.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The Islam that was founded by a warlord that killed more than 700 prisoners of war by decapitation?
The same Islam whose adherents still praise this warlord as a "perfect being" whose lifestyle every Muslim must try to keep?

Islam values the life of their believers.
The value of non-believers or sinners isn't worth a dime. This is seen in the punishments for apostasy, homosexuality, or the incapability to pay Dschizya.

Do you think Saladin was an exception to the rule with the mercy he showed when he captured Jerusalem?

 

[Senator Cheese]

If you think that, then your reasoning is seriously flawed.



No I don't. As you are undoubtedly well aware, in every Islamic incident there will be a way to connect it in some way to a fundamentalist Islamic state. You just cherry pick the connections that make your argument.

Let me put it this way: Muslims generally believe that Mohammad was a perfect being, even though he committed grave atrocities. They believe the Quo'ran is "perfect" and they believe that all Surah apply, with some scholars even advocating that the Medinan surahs top the Meccan ones.

Even your bible-totin, gun-lovin' Texan Christians won't argue that a murderer is someone to be revered and that killing apostates is a great thing.

1. So you are saying American Christians have never killed and tortured gays in the USA? Really?

On what scale? As the previous poster already pointed out, you'll always have your nuts in any given population. The Chapel Hill Shooting was carried out by a crazy Atheist - that doesn't make Atheism a violent ideology.

If a part of "being Atheist" was considering Hitler a "prime Atheist" and believing that Hitler was a "perfect human being" that was to be adored, then yes, Atheism would be a brutal ideology. But it doesn't. And neither do (most) Christians.

2. Are you saying some American Christians don't limit the rights of women in the USA?

They do?

3. Are you saying there aren't American Christians want to the USA's laws to be based on scripture, and that there aren't existing laws that are based on scripture?

4. Are you saying American Christians don't commit terrorist acts in the USA?

5. Are you saying American Christians don't commit male genital mutilation?

6. Are you saying American Christians have never supported slavery?

Followers of your faith, of Christianity, are also guilty of every evil you put at Islam's door. You think Islam is horrible for these evils, so why don't you think the same of Christianity, other than hypocrisy or irrational belief?

I won't say that Christianity and its offshoots are all benevolent denominations that only serve the betterment of mankind.
However, and let's be honest, at the given time, globally the most violent ideology is Islam. Christianity has had its dark moments, but most certainly there aren't nearly as many Christians running into elementary schools and blowing themselves up to please Jesus as there are Muslims doing the same thing for Mohammad.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Do you think Saladin was an exception to the rule with the mercy he showed when he captured Jerusalem?

Yes. Just as much as the few Nazi commanders who showed mercy to the populace when they were actually ordered to kill.

 

[classicalhero]

A perfect case of "whataboutism" by TFY. Typical lefty, rather than focusing on the issue at hand he tries to equate things together, when they are separate issues.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

....

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to leave it at that so as not to get off topic, except one comment:

Once creationism uses the scientific method to become a valid scientific theory, I think it should be taught. Until then, it should not as it is not, by definition, science.

I think we might both be able to agree to this.

 

[brewmama]

Do you think Saladin was an exception to the rule with the mercy he showed when he captured Jerusalem?

It was an exception even to other things Saladin did. He has been romanticized far more than he deserved, and I guess that goes along with the defamatory and in many cases outright false myths about the Crusades.

"On July 4, 1187, the Muslim forces of Saladin (Salah al-Din) decisively defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin in Palestine, capturing Guy, king of Jerusalem; Reginald of Châtillon, Saladin’s enemy whom he personally killed; over two hundred Knights Hospitaller and Templar Knightly Orders whom he ordered to be killed; and many crusaders whom he ransomed. The remaining captured Christians were sold on the local slave markets."
Saladin - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqEovnetLFo

https://paulmarcelrene.wordpress.com/tag/saladin/

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

It was an exception even to other things Saladin did. He has been romanticized far more than he deserved, and I guess that goes along with the defamatory and in many cases outright false myths about the Crusades.

"On July 4, 1187, the Muslim forces of Saladin (Salah al-Din) decisively defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin in Palestine, capturing Guy, king of Jerusalem; Reginald of Châtillon, Saladin’s enemy whom he personally killed; over two hundred Knights Hospitaller and Templar Knightly Orders whom he ordered to be killed; and many crusaders whom he ransomed. The remaining captured Christians were sold on the local slave markets."
Saladin - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com



https://paulmarcelrene.wordpress.com/tag/saladin/

um.. according to your first source.. that example you cited is the exception to what he did, not the other way around. Your second source barely mentions Saladin himself.

I didn't even bother to watch the youtube video because I don't consider youtube videos to be credible sources.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Yes. Just as much as the few Nazi commanders who showed mercy to the populace when they were actually ordered to kill.

Well Saladin was a Kurd. That explains a lot right there on his behavior...at least from my personal experience with Kurds.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Let me put it this way: Muslims generally believe that Mohammad was a perfect being, even though he committed grave atrocities. They believe the Quo'ran is "perfect" and they believe that all Surah apply, with some scholars even advocating that the Medinan surahs top the Meccan ones.

Actually, I believe there are a lot of flavors of Muslims, just like Christians. The Muslims I know do not believe the Koran is perfect. If you have numbers, great.

I believe as of a few years ago, 60% of Americans believe that God created the universe, and man, and thus deny the ToE. That's pretty fundamentalist.

Even your bible-totin, gun-lovin' Texan Christians won't argue that a murderer is someone to be revered and that killing apostates is a great thing.

Are you kidding? Go to some atheist youtube videos. You will see Christians calling for the murder of the maker of the video.

There were plenty of Christians who supported the bombing of abortion clinics and murder of the doctors performing the abortions.

How many Christians were against the invasion of Iraq? I remember seeing plenty of Americans who thought murdering innocent Iraqis should be revered. Many FOX News broadcasters certainly took that stand.

And why not ask atheists how often a Christian has told them they deserve to be tortured for eternity? And how often that was done with pleasure?

On what scale? As the previous poster already pointed out, you'll always have your nuts in any given population.

What about the Invasion of Iraq? Iraq never threatened to attack the USA, but was invaded because they "might" attack.

The most Christian nation in the world, run almost exclusively by Christians (How many non-Christians are there in the three branches of your government? The person who ultimately decided to attack, GWB, is Christian, and he had daily prayer meetings about the invasion.), attacked a sovereign nation and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, so by that measure, the scale isn't even close, Christians have killed way more.

You can argue that the USA is a secular nation, etc., and to be fair, I'll give you some of that. Why don't we just leave it at the scale being the same?

If a part of "being Atheist" was considering Hitler a "prime Atheist" and believing that Hitler was a "perfect human being" that was to be adored, then yes, Atheism would be a brutal ideology. But it doesn't. And neither do (most) Christians.

Not sure why you would bring this up when Hitler was a Christian. Or are Catholics no longer considered Christian?

Not sure what you mean by all the "prime Atheist" and "perfect human being" stuff. Are you talking about how Christians believe man is made in God's image, and that's why Hitler held his racist beliefs?

I know slavery was justified by Christians who said black people weren't made perfectly in God's image, and thus were not/were lesser people and could be enslaved, is that what you are talking about?

They do? (in reply to: "2. Are you saying some American Christians don't limit the rights of women in the USA?")

You don't know? We can start with reproductive rights, ie The right to control their own body.

I won't say that Christianity and its offshoots are all benevolent denominations that only serve the betterment of mankind.
However, and let's be honest, at the given time, globally the most violent ideology is Islam. Christianity has had its dark moments, but most certainly there aren't nearly as many Christians running into elementary schools and blowing themselves up to please Jesus as there are Muslims doing the same thing for Mohammad.

All the Abrahamic religions seem to lead to demonstrably immoral behaviour on the part of their adherents. IMO, the world would be a far better place if they didn't exist.

I'm glad we can agree that Christians are guilty of genital mutilation, committing terrorist acts, wanting law based on the Christian bible, etc.

 

[Supreme]

The Islam that was founded by a warlord that killed more than 700 prisoners of war by decapitation?
The same Islam whose adherents still praise this warlord as a "perfect being" whose lifestyle every Muslim must try to keep?

Islam values the life of their believers.
The value of non-believers or sinners isn't worth a dime. This is seen in the punishments for apostasy, homosexuality, or the incapability to pay Dschizya.

That situation is not as black-and-white as you would think. Although I personally disagree with the murders, I do think that Muhammad, as an 8th century political leader, had a right to root out treason, especially from within his own city (Medina) which was under siege at the time.

I also don't think the crazed Islamist terrorism we see in the Middle East is representative of Islam. In fact, I think the Prophet would utterly abhor ISIS. After all, he had huge respect for Christians, guaranteeing their protection, and would no doubt have lamented the widespread destruction of human cultural sites that ISIS are carrying out today.

 

[TheBear]

Afghan woman set ablaze by mob for burning Koran - LA Times
Afghan mob beats woman to death before burning her body 'because she set fire to Koran' | Daily Mail Online

Another horrific/tragic/evil event in the world.

That's just awful!

 

[Glass*Soul]

How Christianity works 101: In Orthodox Christianity, the Old Testament is full of types anti-types of Christ. The Church interprets those scriptures in a New Testament way. We are under the New Covenant and are under no obligation to follow all of the laws of the Old Testament (though we are told which laws we need to follow in the New Testament). The scriptures are for use in the Church by the Church- and the Church interprets all scripture. The Church existed before the New Testament anyway- and while the NT is part of Holy Tradition- it is a product of the Church. The scriptures testify to types and anti-types of Christ and the revelation of Christ to the world. How scripture is interpreted is set. So, when someone comes along and attempts to tell Christians otherwise, you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

What you are is a sola/solo scriptura atheist. Most Christians in the world from the beginning until now are not sola/solo scriptura. It always amazes me how atheists adhere so strongly to that dogma.

Perhaps a significant number of us have been particularly exposed to that dogma.