What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[com7fy8]

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

If you have been spiritually joined to the Lord, in His love (Romans 5:5) and how His love effects our character . . . this is evidence, I would say.

And God knows if He has done this.

 

[com7fy8]

It seems there are people who believe all material things banged into existence, about ten billion years ago, and now stars of the universe are still spreading out from wherever that bang occurred.

But if things all happen according to principles which are scientific and therefore predictable, how come those principles did all that, then, and not earlier or later . . . in all eternity?

Also . . . I think I remember being told that stars closest to our sun are millions of light years from us. Others are farther, to say the least.

Have they had enough time to move from the center of the bang, to where they are now, in ten billion years??

And if certain stars we see are more than ten billion light years away, how come their light has reached us . . . if their light would need more than ten billion years to reach us??

Or . . . if some force caused all to bang into existence at various distances from each other . . . there would need to be some connection to have it all happen at once. I think that connection is God

 

[cedric1200]

As I posted earlier in this thread, I do not ask for proof. However, I would ask for something testable, however small, that could point towards the existence of deities like that described in the bible.

If we were discussing extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth, I would not demand you walk one up to my front door. Start with some evidence that this sort of thing is even possible.

There are personal experiences by people abducted by extraterrestrial aliens that are large in number. Their testimonies, of people still alive in the present, are well documented.

"The precise number of alleged abductees is uncertain. One of the earliest studies of abductions found 1,700 claimants, while contested surveys argued that 5–6 percent of the general population might have been abducted."

Alien abduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you live with the concern of being abducted by aliens? If no, why not?

I get it.

No, not really concern about that. I have not experienced aliens. But believe it or not, I am not close minded about aliens. It just hasn't been my concerned. I have heard it all. I've heard people say that they've seen ghosts. I have heard people say they've seen mermaids. And I have heard about UFO sightings. They have TV shows about this stuff. My attitude is anything is possible. There could be creatures that I have never known about. But I do believe in demons or angels. So maybe they were abducted by demons. I saw a movie that was based on a true story with many witnesses that said they abducted by aliens. I am not close minded about this, but they are just not my concern.

I do believe in God, because I see evidence of his existence. But I still realize the evidence I see is not evidence enough for someone else. I don't see evidence of aliens. Just people saying that this happened. For all I know, they could be making money off these shows or documents. But I am sure they are very convincing.

Now, concerning my belief I will again explain why I came to my conclusion. In the book of Acts, people were getting filled with the Holy Spirit and started getting spiritual gifts from him. I have seen this happen in real life. And I heard testimonies of trusted witnesses. I have seen healings done in the name of Jesus. And people have given a word of knowledge from God. It was amazing, because they knew stuff about me that I never told them before. And the Bible talks about a word of knowledge. So I have seen and experience the Bible coming to life. But I have not seen evidence of aliens or experience them. So that's why it doesn't concern me.

 

[agua]

Would you expect any?

Yes I'd expect some kind of physical evidence of his presence. ( I just realised I've assumed your dragon is male )

Has your Dragon left any kind of physical evidence ?

 

[agua]

What about all those who seek him but never find him, or those who seek him and find the God (or gods) of a religion different to yours?

Yahweh said anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him; and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him.

 

[stevevw]

I'm sure you will find family members of Islamic suicide bombers saying these sorts of things too Steve.

Regardless, this is only evidence of ones sincerity in their beliefs.

Big difference there also, the families of suicide bombers are supporting terrorism. They have no integrity or rational in what they do. Their acts go against their own religion and there is no justification. If you listen to their words they are irrational and contradict their own beliefs. They have even killed their own as well as commit all sorts of other evil acts like rape and domestic violence. So it does show that these terrorist are hateful, evil, deluded, mad and liars and any family member is the same.

 

[stevevw]

An upstanding moral character does not entail that one cannot be mistaken in his beliefs. Intelligence is no guarantee either.

You have to remember that the writers are claiming that these things actually happened and some were eye witnesses. There is circumstantial evidence to support their claims from sources outside the bible. The time gap between the events and whats written is close to allow for accurate eye witness accounts.

The time between Jesus’s death and the writing of the gospels is just too short for legends of myths to happen. It takes a couple of generations to formulate. In fact, adding a time gap of two generations to Jesus’s death lands you in the second century, just when the apocryphal gospels begin to appear. These do contain all sorts of fabulous stories about Jesus. These are the obvious legends sought by the critics, not the biblical gospels.

Read more: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith
​

The witnesses to Jesus Christ who wrote the New Testament gospels and letters are not gullible or deceitful or demented. This is manifest from the writings themselves. The books bear the marks of intelligence and clear-headed thinking and maturity and a moral vision that is compelling. They win our trust as witnesses, especially when all taken together with one great unifying, but distinctively told, message about Jesus Christ.

 

[stevevw]

The recently found piece of text from the Gospel of Mark (which, for some odd reason, was found almost three years ago now and is still waiting to be published) was dated at "sometime before 90AD. That would be roughly 60 years after Jesus's supposed death...that's more than enough time for content to be added/changed/fabricated. Realistically, one year after Jesus's death would be plenty of time to change his story. Why you think otherwise is beyond my understanding.

It's interesting that you would mention the gospel of Mark and also mention the credibility of the gospels in the same breath. There's really no question that the gospel of Mark has been changed and added to over the years. Not only does it not include any mention of the virgin birth...or any birth...but it also doesn't mention any appearance of Jesus after his death. None. This link may prove informative to you...

The ?Strange? Ending of the Gospel of Mark and Why It Makes All the Difference – Biblical Archaeology Society

This doesn't mean that the original gospel is invalid or untrue. It just means that someone wanted to add an ending to Marks gospel which has been identified as being added. The rest still stands. As for this casting doubt on whether Jesus really rose from the dead this is verified by many other sources independent of Mark. I think this is just the writers opinion. There are other sources for Mark which show that he did believe Jesus rose from the dead. The empty tomb itself is one as no one has ever came up with an explanation for this.

So, again, we know that the gospels have been altered...possibly for no other reason than creating a more interesting/inspiring story. Not only were the gospels altered...they were being altered even after they had been written! It what world do you live in if you think that people who are willing to change a story after it's been written wouldn't be willing to change it before it's been written? Sure, some of the names of people in the gospels were real people, some of the places were real places...but we also know that at least some of the events were entirely fabricated. You said this...

There are writings that are testified as being true and from eye witnesses. There are many different early sources that all point to the same thing.

"So it is hard to believe that the writers who are of sound mind from what they write would just make up blatant lies about some of the things Jesus did. "

Why? Do you still believe this? Have you ever actually looked into the history of the gospels? Obviously you didn't know that at least some of the stories were entirely made up...but now that you do, do you hold the same opinion? Do you still think the accounts were gathered firsthand... or at least secondhand from witnesses? I'm hoping you realize that if that were the case, it's pretty unlikely that any of the accounts of Jesus came from anyone in those accounts. The whole problem is that you're assuming a very modern mindset was held by people 2000 years ago. The writers of the gospels didn't worry about accuracy, getting as many firsthand accounts as possible, corroborating with the other gospel writers to share sources and info...they didn't have to. People back then didn't have time to investigate the origins or validity of some obscure Jewish cult...they had work to do, children to care for, lives lo live. People accepted a story or rejected it based on how popular it was, how much they liked the "message" of that story, and what kind of place they held within that story. That's all that mattered. Prophets, soothsayers, religious fanatics and the like were popping up all the time...year after year. The popular ones would develop followings... sometimes leading to dramatic changes within their parent religion...sometimes inspiring rebellion against the government...but more often than not, the power of their growing popularity would threaten those whose power was already established and they would be squashed becoming no more than a footnote in history.

The problem is you overlook some of the evidence that supports early eyewitness writings. You easliy dismiss these in favor of a more skeptical view from the atheists opinions. There is a lot of supprt for early accurate eyewitness accounts of what happened. In fact there is much more support for Jesus and the early Christians than many other historical people and events which are taken on face value by historians. Jesus is scrutinized much more than any other figure there seems to be a bias as to disproving him and the bible more than any other piece of history.

As for those who were so ready to die for their religion... I'm certain that the multiple reasons why this doesn't lend any credibility to religious claims has been explained to you...and more than once. Would you like to hear them again? Or would you just accept that a willingness to die doesn't lend any credibility to religious claims?

But then you dont give one ounce of credit to this being support either when if true would be good support. Like I and many others say you either have to say they are deluded or liars and act on something false. Or that they were moved by something they seen and this changed the early church and many people stood up for their beliefs.

You have to remember that the discovery of Marks gospel was made in Egypt and dated it to before the year 90AD. This isn't when the original was written so its not a 60 year gap. This is when it is found in a far away country from the events. This means time has elapsed for it to get to Egypt and it is taken from earlier sources. Marks gospel is said to be written around 65AD.

St. Mark, identified with John Mark of Acts 12:12 and the Mark of I Peter 5:13, is mentioned in a quote contained in a letter from Papias (c. 130), Bishop of Hierapolis: "When Mark became Peter's interpreter, he wrote down accurately, although not in order, all that he remembered of what the Lord had said or done." St. Irenaeus (d. 203) and Clement of Alexandria (d. 215) support this identification. The Gospel of Mark is commonly dated about the year 65-70 in conjunction with the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem.

When you consider none of the gospels mention the destruction of the temple then this give support for a pre temple destruction writing. If someone wanted to forge a story about Jesus and the Jews they would have included such an important prophecy of Jesus and historical event of those Jews.

There is more evidence that the gospels are written a lot earlier than skeptics say. Mark uses a source that is even closer to the death of Jesus.

The gospels themselves use sources that go back even closer to the events of Jesus’s life. For example, the story of Jesus’s suffering and death, commonly called the Passion Story, was probably not originally written by Mark. Rather Mark used a source for this narrative. Since Mark is the earliest gospel, his source must be even earlier. In fact, Rudolf Pesch, a German expert on Mark, says the Passion source must go back to at least AD 37, just seven years after Jesus’s death.3

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-evidence-for-jesus#ixzz3R4iI0EOA

Paul mentions the dispute of the genealogies of the gospels in his letters to the Corinthians and his letters have been dated to only a few years after the death of Jesus.

Early church leaders such as Ireneaus, Clement, and Eusebius consistently testify to the Gospels being written during the lifetime of the apostles, perhaps as early as the 60’s CE. Even skeptical scholars place all four Gospels in the 1st Century.
https://bburleson.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/how-do-we-know-the-gospels-are-true/

 

[Davian]

I get it.

No, not really concern about that. I have not experienced aliens. But believe it or not, I am not close minded about aliens. It just hasn't been my concerned. I have heard it all. I've heard people say that they've seen ghosts. I have heard people say they've seen mermaids. And I have heard about UFO sightings. They have TV shows about this stuff. My attitude is anything is possible. There could be creatures that I have never known about. But I do believe in demons or angels. So maybe they were abducted by demons. I saw a movie that was based on a true story with many witnesses that said they abducted by aliens. I am not close minded about this, but they are just not my concern.

I do believe in God, because I see evidence of his existence. But I still realize the evidence I see is not evidence enough for someone else. I don't see evidence of aliens. Just people saying that this happened. For all I know, they could be making money off these shows or documents. But I am sure they are very convincing.

Now, concerning my belief I will again explain why I came to my conclusion. In the book of Acts, people were getting filled with the Holy Spirit and started getting spiritual gifts from him. I have seen this happen in real life. And I heard testimonies of trusted witnesses. I have seen healings done in the name of Jesus. And people have given a word of knowledge from God. It was amazing, because they knew stuff about me that I never told them before. And the Bible talks about a word of knowledge. So I have seen and experience the Bible coming to life. But I have not seen evidence of aliens or experience them. So that's why it doesn't concern me.

If your evidence for the existence of gods does not rise above that for extraterrestrial aliens (which to dismiss), you should see why gods do not concern me.

The fascinating part is why you don't put that together.

 

[cedric1200]

If your evidence for the existence of gods does not rise above that for extraterrestrial aliens (which to dismiss), you should see why gods do not concern me.

The fascinating part is why you don't put that together.

I do see why God does not concern you. I was simply telling people why I believe what I believe. I understand, though, why atheists don't believe.

 

[Ken-1122]

This doesn't mean that the original gospel is invalid or untrue. It just means that someone wanted to add an ending to Marks gospel which has been identified as being added. The rest still stands. As for this casting doubt on whether Jesus really rose from the dead this is verified by many other sources independent of Mark.

Do you have any sources that say Jesus rose from the dead outside this religion? According to the Koran, everybody saw Mohammad ascend to Heaven! But none of those claims are outside the religion, thus only those involved in Islam believe it. The same goes for your religion; if all the claims of Jesus raising from the dead come from Christianity or religions directly associated with Christianity, it shouldn't be a surprise nobody outside of your religion is going to believe it.
As they say; extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Ken

 

[cedric1200]

Do you have any sources that say Jesus rose from the dead outside this religion? According to the Koran, everybody saw Mohammad ascend to Heaven! But none of those claims are outside the religion, thus only those involved in Islam believe it. The same goes for your religion; if all the claims of Jesus raising from the dead come from Christianity or religions directly associated with Christianity, it shouldn't be a surprise nobody outside of your religion is going to believe it.
As they say; extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Ken

Yes, just like there are many people who claim to have seen aliens.

 

[cedric1200]

This is not to criticise other people. I will admit, this is my fear talking.

Are we really interested in truth? I mean, what if there is actually a God who punishes sin? What if there is an actual hell where non-believers go when they die? We are all passing away. What if when we die, we find out, wow there really is a God who punishes the unbelievers and sinful people? What if Jesus or Mahammad (which I don't believe in Mahammad) was the only way to heaven? Aren't you scared of what may happen when you die if you don't find out the truth? I am not saying that you have to believe exactly like I do.

I only shared my beliefs and why I came to believe what I believe. Not so that I recruit people.

All the things in this world: romance, sex, alcohol, pornography, food, television, fun, people, money, beautiful women, etc. are going to pass away soon. You may ask, how do you these things are passing away? OK. Maybe money or food is not going to pass away from the earth, but we are. And we will not be able to enjoy those pleasures. What do you think is going to happen when we die? Are we just going to be non-existent? In the Christian Bible, which some of you guys don't believe in, but it's also in a lot of other holy books, the wrath of God is so devestating that we would wish we didn't exist. So again, what if there is actually a wrath stored up for those who refuse to believe in him?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yahweh said anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him; and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him.

And what about those who have truly sought him but either haven't found him or have found the God of a different religion? Are you suggesting that they were insincere in their search because they didn't reach the same theological commitments as you? Couldn't they say the same about you?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is not to criticise other people. I will admit, this is my fear talking.

Are we really interested in truth? I mean, what if there is actually a God who punishes sin? What if there is an actual hell where non-believers go when they die? We are all passing away. What if when we die, we find out, wow there really is a God who punishes the unbelievers and sinful people?

What if there is a God who punishes believers but saves unbelievers instead? Or a God who doesn't care whether you believe or not?

What if Jesus or Mahammad (which I don't believe in Mahammad) was the only way to heaven? Aren't you scared of what may happen when you die if you don't find out the truth? I am not saying that you have to believe exactly like I do.

Is a God that punishes people for honest doubt a god that deserves to be worshipped? Wouldn't one be worshipping out of fear then?

All the things in this world: romance, sex, alcohol, pornography, food, television, fun, people, money, beautiful women, etc. are going to pass away soon. You may ask, how do you these things are passing away? OK. Maybe money or food is not going to pass away from the earth, but we are. And we will not be able to enjoy those pleasures. What do you think is going to happen when we die? Are we just going to be non-existent? In the Christian Bible, which some of you guys don't believe in, but it's also in a lot of other holy books, the wrath of God is so devestating that we would wish we didn't exist. So again, what if there is actually a wrath stored up for those who refuse to believe in him?

I don't refuse to believe in him. I just don't believe.

 

[cedric1200]

What if there is a God who punishes believers but saves unbelievers instead? Or a God who doesn't care whether you believe or not?



Is a God that punishes people for honest doubt a god that deserves to be worshipped? Wouldn't one be worshipping out of fear then?



I don't refuse to believe in him. I just don't believe.

I can respect that.

And yes, I guess you are right about fearful worship. I do have a lot of fear.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Are we really interested in truth?

Yes, certainly. That is why I became an atheist.

I mean, what if there is actually a God who punishes sin? What if there is an actual hell where non-believers go when they die?

Sure, and what if there is actually a God who likes atheists and punishes believers with eternal torment? There are an unending number of possible things that we can imagine. Imagination is a powerful tool. However, we are only interested in truth, right?

Aren't you scared of what may happen when you die if you don't find out the truth?

No, I'm not in the habit of jumping at shadows in the corner of my eyes.

If there is some Evil God after death that would punish me for the "crime" of disbelief, I'll just have to deal with that if I ever encounter that imaginary possibility. But I take that imaginary possibility just as seriously as the idea that I might wake up in Middle-earth and become captured by Sauron the Dark Lord and tortured in Mordor.

Do you live in fear that Odin won't let you into Valhalla because you didn't die with a sword in your hand?

All the things in this world: romance, sex, alcohol, pornography, food, television, fun, people, money, beautiful women, etc. are going to pass away soon.

Yes, so what?

What do you think is going to happen when we die? Are we just going to be non-existent?

Everything that makes us the unique individuals we are will pass away, but our lives will for the rest of eternity have always have happened. The past might not exist in the present, but it will always have happened. The past, as the past, is never destroyed.

In the Christian Bible, which some of you guys don't believe in, but it's also in a lot of other holy books, the wrath of God is so devestating that we would wish we didn't exist.

Which just sounds like human beings projecting something inside of their own hearts onto the starry sky. IOWs, this says more about human psychology than anything objectively real.

So again, what if there is actually a wrath stored up for those who refuse to believe in him?

What if there is actually wrath stored up for those who do believe in him? What if you are making Odin madder and madder with you every time you go to church?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[cedric1200]

Yes, certainly. That is why I became an atheist.



Sure, and what if there is actually a God who likes atheists and punishes believers with eternal torment? There are an unending number of possible things that we can imagine. Imagination is a powerful tool. However, we are only interested in truth, right?



No, I'm not in the habit of jumping at shadows in the corner of my eyes.

If there is some Evil God after death that would punish me for the "crime" of disbelief, I'll just have to deal with that if I ever encounter that imaginary possibility. But I take that imaginary possibility just as seriously as the idea that I might wake up in Middle-earth and become captured by Sauron the Dark Lord and tortured in Mordor.

Do you live in fear that Odin won't let you into Valhalla because you didn't die with a sword in your hand?



Yes, so what?



Everything that makes us the unique individuals we are will pass away, but our lives will for the rest of eternity have always have happened. The past might not exist in the present, but it will always have happened. The past, as the past, is never destroyed.



Which just sounds like human beings projecting something inside of their own hearts onto the starry sky. IOWs, this says more about human psychology than anything objectively real.



What if there is actually wrath stored up for those who do believe in him? What if you are making Odin madder and madder with you every time you go to church?


eudaimonia,

Mark

You said "yes so what" about my post of the things that are passing away. Well, point was, if if everything is passing away like sex and all the other things, shouldn't we be concern with what eternity may bring if there is life after death instead of focusing on the things that are passing away that seem fun at the moment?

And yes, you could be right, God can punish me regardless of my faith. I even said in one of my posts that I fear being punished by God, even though I believe Christ is the only way to heaven.

And I am not claiming to know all truth.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You said "yes so what" about my post of the things that are passing away. Well, point was, if if everything is passing away like sex and all the other things, shouldn't we be concern with what eternity may bring if there is life after death instead of focusing on the things that are passing away that seem fun at the moment?

And yes, you could be right, God can punish me regardless of my faith. I even said in one of my posts that I fear being punished by God, even though I believe Christ is the only way to heaven.

And I am not claiming to know all truth.

It is also possible that, if there is a God, he does not punish anyone for not believing in him.

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell

 

[agua]

And what about those who have truly sought him but either haven't found him or have found the God of a different religion? Are you suggesting that they were insincere in their search because they didn't reach the same theological commitments as you? Couldn't they say the same about you?

Like I said it's impossible that someone who truly seeks Yahweh won't find Him; so yes their search wasn't sincere ( with all of their heart, soul, and mind is the Biblical description).

No other god makes this promise so I'm not sure how any religion could draw the same conclusion, for any God aside from Yahweh.