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What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

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stevevw

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I'll wait for your full reply then.
Some evidence has been found recently showing that the Gospel of mark may be written fairly recently after the death of Jesus. Most skeptics sight that because the gospels were written so long after Jesus that they may have forgotten a lot of the detail and made up some things to fill in the blank spaces. But now we see that there wasn't really any time for fables to be added. I have also seen evidence for the great detail with archeological discoveries showing the exact places named and described in the new testament where the things happened in the time of Jesus. So those writings were more than likely done by 1st hand witnesses or they spoke to the witnesses. So it is hard to believe that the writers who are of sound mind from what they write would just make up blatant lies about some of the things Jesus did. I believe the things they claim happened were something the writers believed happened whether it did or not is another thing. They may have exaggerated some things but most claims are based on a truth.

We know that Jesus was Crucified for claiming to be the Son of God. So this claim would go without some other claims about Him doing some great things. Afterall the Son of a God should be able to do great things. So there would be some truth to what Jesus claimed and what others claimed He said and done. Its just whether you take the claims seriously. But then you have to begin to deny a host of prominent people who by all accounts were decent and honest people. They had reputations of being rational and wise in many cases and didn't show any evidence of being a liar or deluded in other things they spoke about and did. They were willing to die for what they believed and to many this would seem a crazy act for what would be a lie.
 
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AlephBet

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Number 2 and 6 below in my signature is evidence for God that verges on proof. I found this several years ago. It stumps me how this has never been found before, but there it is, right in the Hebrew Lexicons. I believe it is so simple as to be missed. The problem with finding this type of proof is pride. Theology has failed to grow beyond its first beginnings. The true Word leads you to the letters (Father). Unless you get past the Word first, the letters do not appear by meaning. Symbols can then be read like words.

Symbols like baptism, bread, wine and the cup have meaning beyond that of our theology. They have root meaning, just as words have root meaning. It all starts by recognizing the Aleph Bet. Once you do, the entire Bible opens as a flower.
 
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KCfromNC

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What evidence would an athiest accept?

Atheists accept the evidence for lots of things, just not gods. So look to the evidence for everyday mundane things they do accept and try to produce that quality and quantity of objective observable evidence for your god.
 
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cedric1200

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I don't think it is possible to prove the existance of God to an atheist. What maybe logical for an atheist may not be logical to us who do believe. Evidence of God's existence is shown all around me. Plus, God has revealed himself to me.
 
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cedric1200

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Gotcha...

Basically no evidence that contradicts your current beliefs is acceptable.... only evidence that you'll consider is that which verifies what you already believe.

So when you consider that pretty much any atheist has evidence that would change his mind....and none can change yours....it's not the atheists who are going around ignoring evidence, is it?

From what I have noticed atheists haven't really provided any kind of evidence that controdicted our beliefs. For they are unable to. But I will admit neither have believers provided any evidence that controdicted your beliefs as well. No one is doing a good job of providing any evidence. For both groups are unable to provide such evidence. We will know when we die or when God decides to reveal himself.

That is why I believe because God revealed himself to me. He is the source of life. But can I provide evidence to you he exists? No. My logic is different then your logic.
 
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bhsmte

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My logic is different then your logic.

Agree and you likely have different psychological needs than others who think differently than you as well.

And regarding evidence, the burden is on the party claiming something exists to show something exists, not on the other party stating they don't see evidence that something exists. You see, it is very difficult to prove a negative, just as you can not prove that I was not abducted by aliens last night and then returned to my home, if I say I had a personal experience that this indeed happened.
 
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pico

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MacBeth and King Duncan are discussing the politics of Scotland when an eccentric prophet-like figure barges into the room.

"There is a Shakespeare!" he says.

"What's a Shakespeare?" replies MacBeth.

"What's a Shakespeare?! Shakespeare is the creator of our world. He's responsible for everything that we are and see. He's the author of life. He created us and sustains our existence. We owe everything to him!" the prophet says.

[snip]

What light does the MacBeth parable shed on the sorts of evidence we're looking for when we're looking for evidence of God's existence? What would evidence of God's existence even be like?

Interesting thought experiment, and interesting question. I don't think the analogy is completely apt, because Shakespeare as author by definition cannot be a constituent of the world of the fiction. God, on the other hand, as He is represented in scripture, acts in human history. So God is a constituent of our world. The Incarnation is the supreme act of God's taking part in human history - in human life.

The NT offers at least three categories of evidence. The first is evidence of God's existence, the natural world itself (Romans 1). The other two are presented as evidence that Jesus is the messiah/son of god/etc., viz. Jesus' deeds (and those of his disciples), and fulfilled prophecy about him.
 
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cedric1200

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Agree and you likely have different psychological needs than others who think differently than you as well.

And regarding evidence, the burden is on the party claiming something exists to show something exists, not on the other party stating they don't see evidence that something exists. You see, it is very difficult to prove a negative, just as you can not prove that I was not abducted by aliens last night and then returned to my home, if I say I had a personal experience that this indeed happened.

Well, I guess you make a good point. To me the evidence is my own existance. In my mind, I know I was created. It doesn't make sense to me to say that the world created itself. There has to be an intelligent, eternal person full infinite wisdom to create this world. But that's how I see it.

As for my psychological needs, are you kidding me? God scares me to my core. Because I believe the day of the Lord, when God reveals himself, is going to be a day of judgment and wrath. This does not bring comfort. I don't believe I am better than the athiest. But I do believe that those who refuse to believe in him will be subject to God's wrath. As well as those who do believe in him who continue to sin. This does not bring comfort to me, it brings terror and fear. I struggle with behaviour that I believe is sin. So I am constantly in fear.

I don't believe it is by choice we believe what we believe. Otherwise, I would believe there was no consequences for sin, and I would live the way I want, and I would not fear an angry God. But God is angry and wrathful. And there is going to be a day when everyone will bow before him and confess Jesus to be the Son of God. I can't prove this. But everyone will see. And this day scares me.
 
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bhsmte

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Well, I guess you make a good point. To me the evidence is my own existance. In my mind, I know I was created. It doesn't make sense to me to say that the world created itself. There has to be an intelligent, eternal person full infinite wisdom to create this world. But that's how I see it.

Your faith is based on your personal experiences, nothing wrong with that.

As for my psychological needs, are you kidding me? God scares me to my core. Because I believe the day of the Lord, when God reveals himself, is going to be a day of judgment and wrath. This does not bring comfort. I don't believe I am better than the athiest. But I do believe that those who refuse to believe in him will be subject to God's wrath. As well as those who do believe in him who continue to sin. This does not bring comfort to me, it brings terror and fear. I struggle with behaviour that I believe is sin. So I am constantly in fear.

Fear is a great motivator. Fear does not always steer you in the right direction, but it gets your attention like nothing else.

I don't believe it is by choice we believe what we believe. Otherwise, I would believe there was no consequences for sin, and I would live the way I want, and I would not fear an angry God. But God is angry and wrathful. And there is going to be a day when everyone will bow before him and confess Jesus to be the Son of God. I can't prove this. But everyone will see. And this day scares me.

Completely agree. What we believe is not a choice, as it is derived by many variables, that have come to be over time and from deep in your personal psyche.
 
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Received

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Completely agree. What we believe is not a choice, as it is derived by many variables, that have come to be over time and from deep in your personal psyche.

Belief is a choice indirectly, in that you have the choice to pursue a general body of reasoning or literature which could make you have a different conclusion than you currently have. But directly -- belief as something you can snap your fingers and develop a new belief -- isn't how it works.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Some evidence has been found recently showing that the Gospel of mark may be written fairly recently after the death of Jesus. Most skeptics sight that because the gospels were written so long after Jesus that they may have forgotten a lot of the detail and made up some things to fill in the blank spaces. But now we see that there wasn't really any time for fables to be added. I have also seen evidence for the great detail with archeological discoveries showing the exact places named and described in the new testament where the things happened in the time of Jesus. So those writings were more than likely done by 1st hand witnesses or they spoke to the witnesses. So it is hard to believe that the writers who are of sound mind from what they write would just make up blatant lies about some of the things Jesus did. I believe the things they claim happened were something the writers believed happened whether it did or not is another thing. They may have exaggerated some things but most claims are based on a truth.

We know that Jesus was Crucified for claiming to be the Son of God. So this claim would go without some other claims about Him doing some great things. Afterall the Son of a God should be able to do great things. So there would be some truth to what Jesus claimed and what others claimed He said and done. Its just whether you take the claims seriously. But then you have to begin to deny a host of prominent people who by all accounts were decent and honest people. They had reputations of being rational and wise in many cases and didn't show any evidence of being a liar or deluded in other things they spoke about and did. They were willing to die for what they believed and to many this would seem a crazy act for what would be a lie.

The recently found piece of text from the Gospel of Mark (which, for some odd reason, was found almost three years ago now and is still waiting to be published) was dated at "sometime before 90AD. That would be roughly 60 years after Jesus's supposed death...that's more than enough time for content to be added/changed/fabricated. Realistically, one year after Jesus's death would be plenty of time to change his story. Why you think otherwise is beyond my understanding.

It's interesting that you would mention the gospel of Mark and also mention the credibility of the gospels in the same breath. There's really no question that the gospel of Mark has been changed and added to over the years. Not only does it not include any mention of the virgin birth...or any birth...but it also doesn't mention any appearance of Jesus after his death. None. This link may prove informative to you...

The ?Strange? Ending of the Gospel of Mark and Why It Makes All the Difference – Biblical Archaeology Society

So, again, we know that the gospels have been altered...possibly for no other reason than creating a more interesting/inspiring story. Not only were the gospels altered...they were being altered even after they had been written! It what world do you live in if you think that people who are willing to change a story after it's been written wouldn't be willing to change it before it's been written? Sure, some of the names of people in the gospels were real people, some of the places were real places...but we also know that at least some of the events were entirely fabricated. You said this...

"So it is hard to believe that the writers who are of sound mind from what they write would just make up blatant lies about some of the things Jesus did. "

Why? Do you still believe this? Have you ever actually looked into the history of the gospels? Obviously you didn't know that at least some of the stories were entirely made up...but now that you do, do you hold the same opinion? Do you still think the accounts were gathered firsthand... or at least secondhand from witnesses? I'm hoping you realize that if that were the case, it's pretty unlikely that any of the accounts of Jesus came from anyone in those accounts. The whole problem is that you're assuming a very modern mindset was held by people 2000 years ago. The writers of the gospels didn't worry about accuracy, getting as many firsthand accounts as possible, corroborating with the other gospel writers to share sources and info...they didn't have to. People back then didn't have time to investigate the origins or validity of some obscure jewish cult...they had work to do, children to care for, lives lo live. People accepted a story or rejected it based on how popular it was, how much they liked the "message" of that story, and what kind of place they held within that story. That's all that mattered. Prophets, soothsayers, religious fanatics and the like were popping up all the time...year after year. The popular ones would develop followings... sometimes leading to dramatic changes within their parent religion...sometimes inspiring rebellion against the government...but more often than not, the power of their growing popularity would threaten those whose power was already established and they would be squashed becoming no more than a footnote in history.

As for those who were so ready to die for their religion... I'm certain that the multiple reasons why this doesn't lend any credibility to religious claims has been explained to you...and more than once. Would you like to hear them again? Or would you just accept that a willingness to die doesn't lend any credibility to religious claims?
 
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Ken-1122

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MacBeth and King Duncan are discussing the politics of Scotland when an eccentric prophet-like figure barges into the room.

"There is a Shakespeare!" he says.

"What's a Shakespeare?" replies MacBeth.

"What's a Shakespeare?! Shakespeare is the creator of our world. He's responsible for everything that we are and see. He's the author of life. He created us and sustains our existence. We owe everything to him!" the prophet says.

MacBeth and Duncan smile at one another and look around the room.

"I don't see any Shakespeares." says Duncan. "Where is this Shakespeare?"

"He spoke to me. He sent me. I come from him and will return to him. I've come with a message!" says the prophet.

"Anyone can make such a claim. What evidence do you have for his existence. What evidence do you have that he sent you?" asks MacBeth.

"The whole world is evidence of his existence!" replies the prophet...

***

When we ask for evidence for something that's within creation we all know the kinds of things we're looking for. We're looking for tangible, physical evidence. Different claims require different sorts of evidence.

"I am your father." What evidence is required of this claim? DNA testing, photographs, common memories, etc...

"It rained this afternoon." What evidence is required here? Wet cement, video footage or pictures, personal testimony, etc...

But God is the creator. If He exists he is in an entirely different category from everything else. He alone is creator, everything else is creation. He is unique. What would evidence for the existence of God be like? It's too simplistic to ask for the sort of physical evidence that applies to claims like the two mentioned above. If God exists the whole world is, indeed, evidence of his existence. But certainly more can be said.

What light does the MacBeth parable shed on the sorts of evidence we're looking for when we're looking for evidence of God's existence? What would evidence of God's existence even be like?
Useful evidence is something that can be empirically detected by mankind.

Ken
 
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Davian

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MacBeth and King Duncan are discussing the politics of Scotland when an eccentric prophet-like figure barges into the room.

"There is a Shakespeare!" he says.

"What's a Shakespeare?" replies MacBeth.

"What's a Shakespeare?! Shakespeare is the creator of our world. He's responsible for everything that we are and see. He's the author of life. He created us and sustains our existence. We owe everything to him!" the prophet says.

MacBeth and Duncan smile at one another and look around the room.

"I don't see any Shakespeares." says Duncan. "Where is this Shakespeare?"

"He spoke to me. He sent me. I come from him and will return to him. I've come with a message!" says the prophet.

"Anyone can make such a claim. What evidence do you have for his existence. What evidence do you have that he sent you?" asks MacBeth.

"The whole world is evidence of his existence!" replies the prophet...

***

When we ask for evidence for something that's within creation we all know the kinds of things we're looking for. We're looking for tangible, physical evidence. Different claims require different sorts of evidence.

"I am your father." What evidence is required of this claim? DNA testing, photographs, common memories, etc...

"It rained this afternoon." What evidence is required here? Wet cement, video footage or pictures, personal testimony, etc...

But God is the creator. If He exists he is in an entirely different category from everything else. He alone is creator, everything else is creation. He is unique. What would evidence for the existence of God be like? It's too simplistic to ask for the sort of physical evidence that applies to claims like the two mentioned above. If God exists the whole world is, indeed, evidence of his existence. But certainly more can be said.

What light does the MacBeth parable shed on the sorts of evidence we're looking for when we're looking for evidence of God's existence? What would evidence of God's existence even be like?
If you were to state the question of the existence of this "God" in the form of a testable, falsifiable hypothesis, with robust definitions for "God" and other terms used, what would be needed as evidence could be worked out from there.
 
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Davian

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Well, I guess you make a good point. To me the evidence is my own existance. In my mind, I know I was created. It doesn't make sense to me to say that the world created itself. There has to be an intelligent, eternal person full infinite wisdom to create this world. But that's how I see it.

As for my psychological needs, are you kidding me? God scares me to my core. Because I believe the day of the Lord, when God reveals himself, is going to be a day of judgment and wrath. This does not bring comfort. I don't believe I am better than the athiest. But I do believe that those who refuse to believe in him will be subject to God's wrath.
I do not refuse to believe. Belief is not a choice.
As well as those who do believe in him who continue to sin. This does not bring comfort to me, it brings terror and fear. I struggle with behaviour that I believe is sin. So I am constantly in fear.

I don't believe it is by choice we believe what we believe. Otherwise, I would believe there was no consequences for sin, and I would live the way I want, and I would not fear an angry God. But God is angry and wrathful. And there is going to be a day when everyone will bow before him and confess Jesus to be the Son of God. I can't prove this.
I do not ask for proof. However, I would ask for something testable, however small, that could point towards the existence of deities like that described in the bible.
But everyone will see. And this day scares me.
I have seen no cause for concern.
 
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Davian

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Belief is a choice indirectly, in that you have the choice to pursue a general body of reasoning or literature which could make you have a different conclusion than you currently have. But directly -- belief as something you can snap your fingers and develop a new belief -- isn't how it works.
And, it should be noted, belief in a thing is not evidence for its reality.

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.” ― Isaac Asimov
 
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Davian

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From what I have noticed atheists haven't really provided any kind of evidence that controdicted our beliefs.
If your position is unfalsifiable, then that is to be expected. But then, the burden of evidence is not on the atheist.

I do not suppose that you could prove that I do not have a dragon in my garage.

The Dragon in My Garage - RationalWiki
 
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agua

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If your position is unfalsifiable, then that is to be expected. But then, the burden of evidence is not on the atheist.

I do not suppose that you could prove that I do not have a dragon in my garage.

The Dragon in My Garage - RationalWiki

Ah Carl Sagan strikes again.

Tell me has your dragon left any physical evidence of his presence ?
 
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cedric1200

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If your position is unfalsifiable, then that is to be expected. But then, the burden of evidence is not on the atheist.

I do not suppose that you could prove that I do not have a dragon in my garage.

The Dragon in My Garage - RationalWiki

I agree with you.

And I also agree that I can't prove to you that God exists. No matter what logics we throw your way, we can't prove it to you. It may not be logical to you. I have already establish that.

I only believe because of my experiences, and the testimonies of trusted witnesses. I believe the Bible because I have seen the Bible come to life; not just because mommy and daddy told me. Can I prove it? No. I will admit that. In the Bible, which I believe to be truth based on what I witnessed, only God can reveal himself to people. I believe because God revealed himself to me.
 
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madaz

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But God is angry and wrathful. And there is going to be a day when everyone will bow before him and confess Jesus to be the Son of God. I can't prove this. But everyone will see. And this day scares me.

But He loves you! :p

This fearful post reminds me of this funny quote from the late George Carlin.

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you!
 
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