Time for the truth 7

[Sophrosyne]

This overlooks the divine commandment originating with Jesus to cast off the former covenant.

It's called 'obedience via disobedience', illustrating the oxymoron that old-covenant "christianity" really is.

It is like playing hide and seek with condemnation.

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So when a beautiful lady tempts me to commit adultery I should not try to obey the law! If I do then I confess that Jesus did not died for me! Is that your point?
​

Only if you first ignore Jesus command not to lust after her in the first place then you would have to be concerned about adultery.
Herein lies the issue in that in order to "need" to obey the 10 commandments one must ignore Jesus commandment in the first place to love.

Why is it that you seem to get the facts confused all the time? Note the above says that the lady tempts not that one lust! Now address that facts not what you would like to.

 

[Elder 111]

Actually Jesus didn't mention one of the commandments at all...he only mentioned 9 of the commandments. Those who say he mentioned 10 conveniently IGNORE the Sabbath command was left out on purpose here and somehow think Jesus just "forgot" to mention it and was indeed talking about the 10. The only way to get around this logic is to divide the law such that the Sabbath being the only ceremonial of the 10 such that Jesus was talking about the non ceremonial commandments instead. What happens however with this idea is it is summarily rejected by adventists who expouse the Sabbath command as MORAL instead of ceremonial which defeats using this argument on their side.

Show me the nine Jesus mentioned! Not in Mat. 19 for certain!

 

[Sophrosyne]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So when a beautiful lady tempts me to commit adultery I should not try to obey the law! If I do then I confess that Jesus did not died for me! Is that your point?
​

Why is it that you seem to get the facts confused all the time? Note the above says that the lady tempts not that one lust! Now address that facts not what you would like to.

How can one be tempted to commit adultery if one doesn't lust in the first place after the one whom one is tempted? Lust comes before adultery and if one stops at lust then one needs not even bother with obeying a commandment not to commit adultery because one stops before considering it. You have your logic backwards in that you think one can commit adultery before you even LUST after someone.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Show me the nine Jesus mentioned! Not in Mat. 19 for certain!

I will give you a clue.... someone asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was and then he went off and talked about a bunch of commandments EXCLUDING the Sabbath from any mention then said.. love your neighbor.

 

[Elder 111]

How can one be tempted to commit adultery if one doesn't lust in the first place after the one whom one is tempted? Lust comes before adultery and if one stops at lust then one needs not even bother with obeying a commandment not to commit adultery because one stops before considering it. You have your logic backwards in that you think one can commit adultery before you even LUST after someone.

Let me help you a little bit.
A woman approaches you. Says she was interested you and would show you a good time. Is that lust on your part? Is it a sin to not commit adultery with her as is contended?

 

[Elder 111]

I will give you a clue.... someone asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was and then he went off and talked about a bunch of commandments EXCLUDING the Sabbath from any mention then said.. love your neighbor.

What are you talking about? Where are these commandments listed? Can you not find them? far certainly there are not here!
Mark 12:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Let me help you a little bit.
A woman approaches you. Says she was interested you and would show you a good time. Is that lust on your part? Is it a sin to not commit adultery with her as is contended?

You are just being ludicrous. If the offer was an obvious offer for sex then someone who was not lusting after the woman (desiring sex with her) would turn her down and it would never approach having to stop in a fit of sexual passion with no clothes on.

Simply put one who refuses to lust will never commit adultery unless they are essentially raped.

 

[Sophrosyne]

What are you talking about? Where are these commandments listed? Can you not find them? far certainly there are not here!
Mark 12:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

So you now admit that one has to parse through most of the New Testament to even piece together 9 commandments which are replaced by 2 or one in loving our neighbor. The fact you can't find even 9 together sure weakens your argument for 10 in the New Testament. I believe I've noted 9 throughout the New Testament throughout all the authors but it could be less than that if so.... then arguments that less than 9 equals 10 make it harder to convince.

 

[VictorC]

Let me help you a little bit.
A woman approaches you. Says she was interested you and would show you a good time. Is that lust on your part? Is it a sin to not commit adultery with her as is contended?

Let me help you out a big bit as you're inventing a 'contention' that doesn't exist. (it's a straw man argument, a logical fallacy no one needs to acknowledge)

You're focusing on the man and ignoring the woman. The man in your hypothetical situation is has a decision to render. He could:

1) locate another witness to the woman's action, and go through the process that would have her stoned to death.
2) wriggle his wedding ring in front of the woman's face and basically refuse her.
3) feed on the passion (aka lust) in his heart and decide two wives are better than one (sound familiar?) and follow through on his passion (aka lust).

Only one of these responses is in accordance to the Mosaic covenant Law you're promoting on this forum.

WWJD?

John 8
2 Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”​

I only highlighted a couple of the Pharisees' statements for simplicity.
Two questions to consider:

• When Jesus didn't condone what the Law required, what attribute did He display which is absent in the Law?
• Why did the Pharisees, who promoted adherance to the Law, reject Jesus?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Why did the Pharisees, who promoted adherance to the Law, reject Jesus?

Herein lies the onus of it all those who promote adherence to the Law end up in that effort rejecting Jesus....FOR THE LAW.

 

[listed]

You are just being ludicrous. If the offer was an obvious offer for sex then someone who was not lusting after the woman (desiring sex with her) would turn her down and it would never approach having to stop in a fit of sexual passion with no clothes on.

thus his argument is invalid.

Simply put one who refuses to lust will never commit adultery unless they are essentially raped.

A raped victim is not guilty of a sexual based sin.

 

[Job8]

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
How come we as Christians can advocate that the ten commandments are not applicable to us yet when we look at the individual tenants of the law no one says that it is not for us to keep.

Christians who know the truth do not advocate any such thing. One cannot be justified in God's eyes by trying to keep the Ten Commandments. That is one aspect of the Gospel.

Here is the other aspect of the Gospel. If you study the New Testament teaching on the Ten Commandments, you will find that (1) they all have been integrated into the Law of Love (the Law of Liberty), (2) under the New Covenant they are written on the hearts of believers, and (3) those who walk in the Spirit fulfil them through the fruits of the Spirit. Study Rom 13:8-14 and 1 Cor 13:1-13 to understand this properly.

What James is pointing out is absolutely correct. If you break one of the Ten Commandments you have broken the whole Law, since they are all one commandement. The Lord distilled them down to two commandments found in the OT, and the epistles distill them down to just one word "Love" (Agape). For those who inquire about the Sabbath, the Lord of the sabbath has instituted the Lord's Day in His resurrection -- the first day of the week.

 

[Strong in Him]

Actually Jesus didn't mention one of the commandments at all...he only mentioned 9 of the commandments. Those who say he mentioned 10 conveniently IGNORE the Sabbath command was left out on purpose here

Where? Which passage are you referring to?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Where? Which passage are you referring to?

there were several the rich man comes to mind and then the greatest commandment another neither mention the Sabbath command. James also mentions commandments too.

 

[Elder 111]

Paul has to be dismissed because he is the ultimate example of where the Law in the end takes us as Saul he was on top of the "game" doing everything "right" according to the Law but God sees things not through the eyes of the Law but through faith and God had to strip Paul of the Law entirely and start him over from nothing but faith in him. The Law itself doesn't care about mercy.... the humans who are in charge of it have to make sure to include it otherwise it is nothing but death and slavery. I would equate the Law as a stumbling block between us and God always showing up and tripping people into sin while Christ has us bypassing the Law altogether making him the stumbling block of offense to those who exalt the Law ahead of him.

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Let me help you a little bit.
A woman approaches you. Says she was interested you and would show you a good time. Is that lust on your part? Is it a sin to not commit adultery with her as is contended?
​

You are just being ludicrous. If the offer was an obvious offer for sex then someone who was not lusting after the woman (desiring sex with her) would turn her down and it would never approach having to stop in a fit of sexual passion with no clothes on.

Simply put one who refuses to lust will never commit adultery unless they are essentially raped.

All of this is about remarks you have made. If the law is a stumbling block What let me know that I should not commit adultery since there is no law that does so. (By the way the woman says she loves).
Rom. 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Elder 111]

Christians who know the truth do not advocate any such thing. One cannot be justified in God's eyes by trying to keep the Ten Commandments. That is one aspect of the Gospel.

Here is the other aspect of the Gospel. If you study the New Testament teaching on the Ten Commandments, you will find that (1) they all have been integrated into the Law of Love (the Law of Liberty), (2) under the New Covenant they are written on the hearts of believers, and (3) those who walk in the Spirit fulfil them through the fruits of the Spirit. Study Rom 13:8-14 and 1 Cor 13:1-13 to understand this properly.

What James is pointing out is absolutely correct. If you break one of the Ten Commandments you have broken the whole Law, since they are all one commandement. The Lord distilled them down to two commandments found in the OT, and the epistles distill them down to just one word "Love" (Agape). For those who inquire about the Sabbath, the Lord of the sabbath has instituted the Lord's Day in His resurrection -- the first day of the week.

ON the passover Jesus issued in the communion service where is the first day issued in? Show please!

 

[Elder 111]

there were several the rich man comes to mind and then the greatest commandment another neither mention the Sabbath command. James also mentions commandments too.

Mat. 19:
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder (1), Thou shalt not commit adultery (2), Thou shalt not steal(3), Thou shalt not bear false witness (4),
19 Honour thy father and thy mother(5): and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself(6).
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Where are the other three?

 

[Job8]

ON the passover Jesus issued in the communion service where is the first day issued in? Show please!

When Jesus said that He is Lord of the sabbath, that was the first indication that He would bring in a new order of rest and worship. The feast of first fruits was held on THE MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH, and His resurrection was also on the same day -- the first day of the week. That is why Christ is called "the first fruits of them that slept" (1 Cor 15:20,23). Therefore that day of resurrection became "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10).

The disciples met to worship on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7). That is sufficient evidence that the Lord's Day became the day of rest and worship, and replaced the sabbath. If you are looking for a "commandment" then the commandment is to simply enter into His rest (Heb 4:11). The Hebrew sabbath was a "shadow" of Christ's perfect rest after He finished His work of redemption (Col 2:16,17).

 

[Job8]

Mat. 19:
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder (1), Thou shalt not commit adultery (2), Thou shalt not steal(3), Thou shalt not bear false witness (4),
19 Honour thy father and thy mother(5): and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself(6).
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Where are the other three?

Notice that only the last six commandments are mentioned. This man was breaking the first four commandments by making his wealth his idol. He was told to let go of his idol so that he could keep the other four commandments. But even if he could have kept all those commandments, he could not have been saved (Rom 3:28). He needed to believe that Jesus is God and that only His perfect life and His perfect sacrifice could save him. He needed to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (whom he regarded simply as a good Jewish rabbi.)