Time for the truth 7

[listed]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Does Jesus have to withdraw His too? 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
​

Pointed out by Jesus? NO! Verify by Jesus as correct? YES! The Jews were convinced there were correct, were they so when they crucified Christ? Do you think you are correct because you hold the views you have? The bible does not confirm you views!

Maybe your bible does not, mine does though.

 

[listed]

No.
I accurately described your disdain for the Sabbath. You've already seen what it demands, and you won't comply when confronted with the reality of the knife and lambs it entails.

He does not even comply with the stone tablets on the issue.

 

[listed]

The reason for the new covenant as the same book says has nothing to do with the law itself. That you have insisted to reject/ignore in order to maintain an unscriptural position. Heb 8: 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not fault with the LAW!!!

Elder this is superficial and does not matter. What you are doing is trying to reverse and totally disregard the NC. The fact is there has been a change of covenants. I can not understand for the life of me why anyone would not like the NC much better.

 

[listed]

All that you have cited has nothing to do with the Sabbath of the ten Commandments. When God spoke and wrote the Ten Commandments they were not included. There was not attached to it the priesthood and lamb sacrifice etc. Every ploy is instituted to burden the Sabbath as was with the Jews but Jesus gave adequate example of Sabbath keeping. God gave ten and the ploy is to cut out one.
As for Heb 4: you know where the bible stand on that I stand with the bible.
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, (the Sabbath) saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (Did Jesus speak of another day?)

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (the Sabbath remains)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Where else do we see God resting but on the Sabbath?)

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (WE are counseled to keep the Sabbath)

Please explain how we can do something God did. We do not want the credit for what God did.

The real issue is the change of covenants, not a part of an old (prior) covenant. We are not trying to amend that covenant as you and your church has done.

 

[disciple1]

1 john chapter 1 verse 8
if anyone claims to be with out sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
james chapter 2 verse 10
if anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point there guilty of breaking all of it.
Galatians 3 - NIV Translation

(Gal 3:1 NIV) You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.


(Gal 3:2 NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?



(Gal 3:3 NIV) Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?



(Gal 3:4 NIV) Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?



(Gal 3:5 NIV) Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?



(Gal 3:6 NIV) Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."



(Gal 3:7 NIV) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.



(Gal 3:8 NIV) The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."



(Gal 3:9 NIV) So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.



(Gal 3:10 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."



(Gal 3:11 NIV) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."



(Gal 3:12 NIV) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."



(Gal 3:13 NIV) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."



(Gal 3:14 NIV) He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.



(Gal 3:15 NIV) Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.



(Gal 3:16 NIV) The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.



(Gal 3:17 NIV) What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.


The law introduced 1880 years later does not set aside the covenant previously established by God either.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6 the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Galatians 5 verse 14 the entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Elder 111]

Christians walk in line with the moral law of God, but we are not justified by doing so; we are justified by Christ's work on our behalf.

Reading a few of your posts, Elder 111, I'm not certain that you are not resting in you obedience to the law rather than in the finished work of Christ. I hope I'm wrong.

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

You have not read enough, for else you would have seen that I have stated that it is Christ in us that enables us to keep the Ten Commandments! Zech. 4: 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Did you also notice that others would have us abandon the Ten commandments altogether?

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

As in the 7th command? As well as the other 9? All were temporal, only for a time? So I repeat are we to take God's name in vain without being guilty?
​

You still try to get us to confess it is OK to sin. Why?

So you do admit that to break the Ten commandments is sin! So why do you teach that the Ten Commandments are not for Christians if we are to live a holy life?
That is what I want you to confess. Why go against that you know is holy!

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Does Jesus have to withdraw His too? 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
​

It has been reduced to position in heaven. Vanity reigns!! well at least for some. Who cares what position (rank or prestiege) 1 had in heaven? By this verse alone we know that 1 does not have to keep the law for entrance.

What you have not understood that least in this case means will not have eternal life! Rev. 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

The reason for the new covenant as the same book says has nothing to do with the law itself. That you have insisted to reject/ignore in order to maintain an unscriptural position. Heb 8: 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not fault with the LAW!!!
​

Elder this is superficial and does not matter. What you are doing is trying to reverse and totally disregard the NC. The fact is there has been a change of covenants. I can not understand for the life of me why anyone would not like the NC much better.

The NC is the same as the OC. Is there salvation by any other name than that of Jesus? Rev.m13: 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[listed]

You have not read enough, for else you would have seen that I have stated that it is Christ in us that enables us to keep the Ten Commandments! Zech. 4: 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
Did you also notice that others would have us abandon the Ten commandments altogether?

The evidence before us does not match your words in any manner.

 

[listed]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

As in the 7th command? As well as the other 9? All were temporal, only for a time? So I repeat are we to take God's name in vain without being guilty?
​

So you do admit that to break the Ten commandments is sin! So why do you teach that the Ten Commandments are not for Christians if we are to live a holy life?
That is what I want you to confess. Why go against that you know is holy!

Just where did I make such a confession?

 

[listed]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Does Jesus have to withdraw His too? 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
​

What you have not understood that least in this case means will not have eternal life! Rev. 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

We understand you to be talking about yourself in v 14. This would be incorrect because John is not talking about the 10 Cs as you mistakenly believe.

So are you trying to get me in trouble by goading and flaming or confessing about yourself with v 15?

 

[listed]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

The reason for the new covenant as the same book says has nothing to do with the law itself. That you have insisted to reject/ignore in order to maintain an unscriptural position. Heb 8: 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not fault with the LAW!!!
​

The NC is the same as the OC. Is there salvation by any other name than that of Jesus? Rev.m13: 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Old and New mean the same thing? In who's dictionary? Maybe in your code book that no one else goes by.

 

[VictorC]

Galatians 3 - NIV Translation <snipped for brevity>

Please, continue with your quote from Galatians chapter three - and don't stop at verse 17. Continue on to see the relationship of what kept whom, linked with "before faith came" contrasted with "after faith has come". It contains a wonderful lesson all can gain from.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
How come we as Christians can advocate that the ten commandments are not applicable to us

Who says they're not?

Jesus came to fulfil the law and the prophets.
He fulfilled the sacrificial law when he offered his life - the life of the spotless Lamb of God - for our sin.
He fulfilled the prophets who spoke of his coming, his teaching, his healing ministry, his entry into Jerusalem, his suffering, etc, and that he would establish a NEW Covenant.

Jesus also spoke of the 10 commandments, and summarised them in two; love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. As well as this, he also gave us a NEW commandment; to love others as HE loved us. How did he love us? He died for sinners - laid down his life for people who hated him, had sinned against his Father and did not deserve anything from God, except eternal death.
That is how we should love others. And obviously, if we are, we will not kill or injure them, take their wives or their property, covet their possessions and so on.

Everything that Jesus told us to do is covered in the 10 commandments; love God, seek first his kingdom, decide whether to serve God or money, come to Jesus to receive rest, and his peace, and treat, love and forgive people as we want them, and God, to treat, love and forgive us. Jesus also taught much more than is in the commandments, because they don't tell us how to be saved.
But loving our neighbour means that we don't kill him; so we are keeping the commandments.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So when a beautiful lady tempts me to commit adultery I should not try to obey the law! If I do then I confess that Jesus did not died for me! Is that your point?

Only if you first ignore Jesus command not to lust after her in the first place then you would have to be concerned about adultery.
Herein lies the issue in that in order to "need" to obey the 10 commandments one must ignore Jesus commandment in the first place to love.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Who says they're not?

Jesus came to fulfil the law and the prophets.
He fulfilled the sacrificial law when he offered his life - the life of the spotless Lamb of God - for our sin.
He fulfilled the prophets who spoke of his coming, his teaching, his healing ministry, his entry into Jerusalem, his suffering, etc, and that he would establish a NEW Covenant.

Jesus also spoke of the 10 commandments, and summarised them in two; love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. As well as this, he also gave us a NEW commandment; to love others as HE loved us. How did he love us? He died for sinners - laid down his life for people who hated him, had sinned against his Father and did not deserve anything from God, except eternal death.
That is how we should love others. And obviously, if we are, we will not kill or injure them, take their wives or their property, covet their possessions and so on.

Everything that Jesus told us to do is covered in the 10 commandments; love God, seek first his kingdom, decide whether to serve God or money, come to Jesus to receive rest, and his peace, and treat, love and forgive people as we want them, and God, to treat, love and forgive us. Jesus also taught much more than is in the commandments, because they don't tell us how to be saved.
But loving our neighbour means that we don't kill him; so we are keeping the commandments.

Actually Jesus didn't mention one of the commandments at all...he only mentioned 9 of the commandments. Those who say he mentioned 10 conveniently IGNORE the Sabbath command was left out on purpose here and somehow think Jesus just "forgot" to mention it and was indeed talking about the 10. The only way to get around this logic is to divide the law such that the Sabbath being the only ceremonial of the 10 such that Jesus was talking about the non ceremonial commandments instead. What happens however with this idea is it is summarily rejected by adventists who expouse the Sabbath command as MORAL instead of ceremonial which defeats using this argument on their side.

 

[VictorC]

Only if you first ignore Jesus command not to lust after her in the first place then you would have to be concerned about adultery.
Herein lies the issue in that in order to "need" to obey the 10 commandments one must ignore Jesus commandment in the first place to love.

One also needs to ignore the divine commandment to cast off the covenant from Mount Sinai (the Ten Commandments) that denies eternal life to those retained by it (Galatians 4:30). What we're really watching on display is unrighteousness on a grand scale, that was observed and condemned 2000 years ago.

Romans 3
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one..."​

All we see repeated on this forum is the rhetoric exposing their propensity to do evil regardless of the Law that doesn't stop human nature in the first place. When confronted with the reality that there isn't anyone righteous, their mind seeks deflection instead of absorbing the reality.

 

[Sophrosyne]

All we see repeated on this forum is the rhetoric exposing their propensity to do evil regardless of the Law that doesn't stop human nature in the first place. When confronted with the reality that there isn't anyone righteous, their mind seeks deflection instead of absorbing the reality.

I think what is a problem is that they think somehow that they can first use grace to get Jesus' righteousness then think by playing "keep the commandment" that they can maintain that level of righteousness. The problem is they do sin and then have to again cede to Jesus for righteousness over and over. It is like having 2 masters and rejecting both of them for the other in a demented way.

 

[VictorC]

I think what is a problem is that they think somehow that they can first use grace to get Jesus' righteousness then think by playing "keep the commandment" that they can maintain that level of righteousness.

This overlooks the divine commandment originating with Jesus to cast off the former covenant.

The problem is they do sin and then have to again cede to Jesus for righteousness over and over. It is like having 2 masters and rejecting both of them for the other in a demented way.

It's called 'obedience via disobedience', illustrating the oxymoron that old-covenant "christianity" really is.