the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[BigDaddy4]

But being baptized is the covenant ordinance that separates the wishy washy belief from the devoted and dedicated belief. A person's works is what exposes their genuine belief. Remember that the devils also believe, and tremble.

You just combined faith with works, contrary to Biblical teaching.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I think I responded to that question. All sins are pardonable if we repent of them, excepting the rejection of the Spirit's witness of the divinity of the Son of God. Genuine repentance means turning 180 deg. from that sin and never repeating it. If we love Christ more than the sin, we will find the strength and power to do this. When we sin, it simple means that our love for Him is below our potential. Keeping the commandments daily strengthens and fortifies our love for Him, until we have reached our potential. Our potential stems from being created in God's likeness.

Have you never repeated a sin that you repented of and asked forgiveness for? If so, then by your words your repentence was not genuine. How frustrating that must be knowing that your efforts may never be enough!

Everything you say in the above is about you ("we" "our", etc) doing something. You are putting your effort above God's grace. It seems you truly do not understand the gift of His grace.

 

[peebly63]

Have you never repeated a sin that you repented of and asked forgiveness for? If so, then by your words your repentence was not genuine. How frustrating that must be knowing that your efforts may never be enough!

Everything you say in the above is about you ("we" "our", etc) doing something. You are putting your effort above God's grace. It seems you truly do not understand the gift of His grace.

amen, very well said.

 

[MormonFriend]

Have you never repeated a sin that you repented of and asked forgiveness for? ...

Of course not! I am just as human as anyone else. I have pride that must be extracted, as does everyone.

... If so, then by your words your repentence was not genuine. ...

Bingo! Absolutely correct! That means one (myself included) must discover what was not genuine about his/her repentance. We are on a learning curve with everything that God teaches us. That is why Isaiah taught that we learn "line upon line, and precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little."

... It seems you truly do not understand the gift of His grace.

On the contrary! I have learned that His Grace is extended to forgive us as we falter not only in sins, but also when our efforts to repent falter. But if we give up and declare it is impossible, and find comfort and acceptance in continuation of sin, we deny His word. (John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.) We cannot be a servant of Christ, and a servant of sin at the same time! He said "All things are possible to those who believe." How can anyone declare that something is "impossible" when Christ says nothing is impossible. The only variable is our belief! We are learning to believe. Belief is not something we can perfect overnight. Our pride interferes with belief. That is why there is a priority on repentance, so that our pride can be extracted as a Refiner's Fire extracts the dross from the gold.

... How frustrating that must be knowing that your efforts may never be enough! ...

Obviously, you do not understand. It is way beyond frustrating. It is agonizing! It is excruciating! It qualifies to be compared with the Refiner's Fire.

... Everything you say in the above is about you ("we" "our", etc) doing something. ...

Yet nothing that Jesus has not already told us we must do.

...You are putting your effort above God's grace. ...

I have been guilty of that, yes. And the net result takes us back to the top of this post, where I have, and everyone has recommitted sins that we have repented of. When we learn to be submissive, and take the yoke of Christ upon us, the two of us together can accomplish those things that are otherwise impossible. A simple illustration is the Chinese finger traps. We can pull and pull with all our strength and they will not come apart. The harder we pull, the tighter the traps become. It works against our efforts. We remain trapped in sin when we rely on our strength and wisdom alone. But if we chill and do it His way by following the path He trod, He removes those finger traps and we are free. If we are still sinning, we are still wearing those finger traps. They are removable!

 

[MormonFriend]

no those in Christ are those who believe on him and follow, they will fall short as we all will, that is why Grace is so amazing, a free gift of righteousness, no more bonding to being perfect when you cannot be, you were never intended to be perfet, the law was to show you the futility of trying to save yourself by your own self righteousness.

Would you please go back and edit this post/response. (post #179) You have included your mixed responses in a format that makes it look like I am making the statements that you are making, and it is hard to follow. Technically you are adding to my word as if I am saying them. You are thus misrepresenting my statements by including them in the quote attributed to me.

 

[peebly63]

Of course not! I am just as human as anyone else. I have pride that must be extracted, as does everyone.

Bingo! Absolutely correct! That means one (myself included) must discover what was not genuine about his/her repentance. We are on a learning curve with everything that God teaches us. That is why Isaiah taught that we learn "line upon line, and precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little."

On the contrary! I have learned that His Grace is extended to forgive us as we falter not only in sins, but also when our efforts to repent falter. But if we give up and declare it is impossible, and find comfort and acceptance in continuation of sin, we deny His word. (John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.) We cannot be a servant of Christ, and a servant of sin at the same time! He said "All things are possible to those who believe." How can anyone declare that something is "impossible" when Christ says nothing is impossible. The only variable is our belief! We are learning to believe. Belief is not something we can perfect overnight. Our pride interferes with belief. That is why there is a priority on repentance, so that our pride can be extracted as a Refiner's Fire extracts the dross from the gold.


Obviously, you do not understand. It is way beyond frustrating. It is agonizing! It is excruciating! It qualifies to be compared with the Refiner's Fire.

Yet nothing that Jesus has not already told us we must do.


I have been guilty of that, yes. And the net result takes us back to the top of this post, where I have, and everyone has recommitted sins that we have repented of. When we learn to be submissive, and take the yoke of Christ upon us, the two of us together can accomplish those things that are otherwise impossible. A simple illustration is the Chinese finger traps. We can pull and pull with all our strength and they will not come apart. The harder we pull, the tighter the traps become. It works against our efforts. We remain trapped in sin when we rely on our strength and wisdom alone. But if we chill and do it His way by following the path He trod, He removes those finger traps and we are free. If we are still sinning, we are still wearing those finger traps. They are removable!

they are not removable at all we will always sin and are the repeated ones any different to the new ones, no they all separate us from God but when we know the debt is payed in full, we can relax knowing those sins no longer separate us from God, he loves us unconditionally.

may I ask what sins do you think the blood of Christ does cover?

 

[peebly63]

Would you please go back and edit this post/response. (post #179) You have included your mixed responses in a format that makes it look like I am making the statements that you are making, and it is hard to follow. Technically you are adding to my word as if I am saying them. You are thus misrepresenting my statements by including them in the quote attributed to me.

I have edited my post, my apologies it was not my intention to misrepresent your statement.

 

[MormonFriend]

I have edited my post, my apologies it was not my intention to misrepresent your statement.

Thank you kindly. I know it was not intentional.

 

[MormonFriend]

they are not removable at all we will always sin and are the repeated ones any different to the new ones, no they all separate us from God but when we know the debt is payed in full, we can relax knowing those sins no longer separate us from God, he loves us unconditionally. ...

You have said it is impossible for us to stop sinning. Jesus told the woman taken in sin to "... go and sin no more." You keep avoiding my question. If Jesus declared: "All things are possible to those who believe"." How can anyone declare that something is "impossible" when Christ says all things are possible?

 

[MormonFriend]

they are not removable at all we will always sin and are the repeated ones any different to the new ones, no they all separate us from God but when we know the debt is payed in full, we can relax knowing those sins no longer separate us from God, he loves us unconditionally. ...

Don't relax quite yet. If our spirits are still are ruled by our physical bodies in this life, instead of the spirit ruling the body , what is to stop our resurrected bodies from ruling our spirit in the hereafter? If we cannot stop sinning here, what enables us to stop sinning there?

A great teaching in the Book of Mormon states: Alma 34: 32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

....may I ask what sins do you think the blood of Christ does cover?

All sins except to deny the witness of the Holy Ghost of the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ. (A possible exclusion may also be the shedding of innocent blood. But that topic does not affect the point of this discussion). Even though the price has been paid for by precious drops of His blood, our entrance to God's presence is pending our personal conversion to sin no more.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[MormonFriend]

they are not removable at all we will always sin and are the repeated ones any different to the new ones, no they all separate us from God but when we know the debt is payed in full, we can relax knowing those sins no longer separate us from God, he loves us unconditionally. ...

Another major paradox with the belief that we cannot stop sinning is Job's declaration that " ...to depart from evil is understanding." If we cannot stop sinning, then we cannot depart from evil! Haven't you noticed that Christianity today is divided into multiple denominations, and the reason for these divisions stems from different understandings of the Bible? Is it ironic that one doctrine they all hold in unison (or most of them) is the "saved by Grace alone" doctrine, and the idea that we cannot depart from evil, nor does salvation require us to do so? That is a fulfillment of Jobs definition of understanding. The things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11) If all these denominations are of the Spirit, they would be united in their understandings, not divided.

 

[peebly63]

Another major paradox with the belief that we cannot stop sinning is Job's declaration that " ...to depart from evil is understanding." If we cannot stop sinning, then we cannot depart from evil! Haven't you noticed that Christianity today is divided into multiple denominations, and the reason for these divisions stems from different understandings of the Bible? Is it ironic that one doctrine they all hold in unison (or most of them) is the "saved by Grace alone" doctrine, and the idea that we cannot depart from evil, nor does salvation require us to do so? That is a fulfillment of Jobs definition of understanding. The things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11) If all these denominations are of the Spirit, they would be united in their understandings, not divided.

and how is that different to the lds and its splinter groups?

the main difference I think is that most Christians agree on major parts of the bible but will emphasise or demean some parts of scripture, penetecostals are big on the gifts of the spirit but baptist have been known to almost deny them altogether but nearly all Christians would agree that Jesus died and gave his blood on calvary to save the sinner who believes on him, the same Jesus rose three days later and now sits at the right hand of God.

back to the op, we cannot stop sinning that is the whole point, God gave his standard to be perfect in his sight, no one can keep to that standard that is why we needed Jesus to come and fulfill the law and bring Grace, the old covenant was impossible to keep, the new more glorious covenant is easy to keep because Jesus took our behaviour out of the equation..

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, God made the covenant, the agreement, with Jesus, who is God, so God made a covenant, with himself to ensure our possible salvation, that is why it works it has nothing to do with us , other than believing that it was done.

Grace because we couldn't do it and we couldn't deserve it.

 

[MormonFriend]

and how is that different to the lds and its splinter groups?

the main difference I think is that most Christians agree on major parts of the bible but will emphasise or demean some parts of scripture, penetecostals are big on the gifts of the spirit but baptist have been known to almost deny them altogether but nearly all Christians would agree that Jesus died and gave his blood on calvary to save the sinner who believes on him, the same Jesus rose three days later and now sits at the right hand of God.

back to the op, we cannot stop sinning that is the whole point, God gave his standard to be perfect in his sight, no one can keep to that standard that is why we needed Jesus to come and fulfill the law and bring Grace, the old covenant was impossible to keep, the new more glorious covenant is easy to keep because Jesus took our behaviour out of the equation..

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, God made the covenant, the agreement, with Jesus, who is God, so God made a covenant, with himself to ensure our possible salvation, that is why it works it has nothing to do with us , other than believing that it was done.

Grace because we couldn't do it and we couldn't deserve it.

You completely diverted from the main point of this post. The Bible, Job in particular, teaches that we must depart from evil if we are to understand. You say we cannot depart from evil because it is impossible. How do you know that your understanding is not out of calibration due to Job's declaration? Serious question here, as salvation hangs on a correct understanding. Handle with prayer!

 

[peebly63]

You completely diverted from the main point of this post. The Bible, Job in particular, teaches that we must depart from evil if we are to understand. You say we cannot depart from evil because it is impossible. How do you know that your understanding is not out of calibration due to Job's declaration? Serious question here, as salvation hangs on a correct understanding. Handle with prayer!

we are told in scripture all will fall short of the mark, so either God has played a sick joke on us and has made a standard that we cannot possibly achieve, as any sin is sin and any sin keeps us from God or God's standard was set exactly where it should be, as God is all knowing , all powerful but it doesn't matter as he provided a way for us to spend eternity with him.

The God I serve made a way for me to conquer sin and death, the only way it could ever work and that is Jesus, the way, the truth and the life, Jesus paid with his blood the ransom in full for all my sins, through accepting him as my Lord and Saviour I entered in by his Grace as i deserved nothing, I know have a free gift of his righteousness, his incorruptible righteousness not my self righteousness, so the father sees me as righteous, I was a slave to sin, everything i did was sin all God saw was sin but now I am a slave to righteousness all God sees is the righteousness of Jesus covering me.

 

[MormonFriend]

we are told in scripture all will fall short of the mark, so either God has played a sick joke on us and has made a standard that we cannot possibly achieve, as any sin is sin and any sin keeps us from God or God's standard was set exactly where it should be, as God is all knowing , all powerful but it doesn't matter as he provided a way for us to spend eternity with him.

The God I serve made a way for me to conquer sin and death, the only way it could ever work and that is Jesus, the way, the truth and the life, Jesus paid with his blood the ransom in full for all my sins, through accepting him as my Lord and Saviour I entered in by his Grace as i deserved nothing, I know have a free gift of his righteousness, his incorruptible righteousness not my self righteousness, so the father sees me as righteous, I was a slave to sin, everything i did was sin all God saw was sin but now I am a slave to righteousness all God sees is the righteousness of Jesus covering me.

So you are explaining how salvation works as you understand it. But I asked: " How do you know that your understanding is not out of calibration (faulty) due to Job's declaration? " (Job 28: 28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.)

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Another major paradox with the belief that we cannot stop sinning is Job's declaration that " ...to depart from evil is understanding." If we cannot stop sinning, then we cannot depart from evil! Haven't you noticed that Christianity today is divided into multiple denominations, and the reason for these divisions stems from different understandings of the Bible? Is it ironic that one doctrine they all hold in unison (or most of them) is the "saved by Grace alone" doctrine, and the idea that we cannot depart from evil, nor does salvation require us to do so? That is a fulfillment of Jobs definition of understanding. The things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11) If all these denominations are of the Spirit, they would be united in their understandings, not divided

and how is that different to the lds and its splinter groups?

...

An honest question deserves an honest answer. (And I don't pretend to have all answers.) The LDS splinter groups are not all of the Spirit and do not claim to be. The denominations in Christianity cannot be of the same Spirit because they derive different understandings of the Bible, and only the Spirit can give correct understanding of the Bible, yet they do claim to be of the same Spirit and the same Body of Christ. Only one of them could potentially be of the true Spirit. Which one is it?

 

[MormonFriend]

...
... no those in Christ are those who believe on him and follow, they will fall short as we all will, that is why Grace is so amazing, a free gift of righteousness, no more bonding to being perfect when you cannot be, you were never intended to be perfect, the law was to show you the futility of trying to save yourself by your own self righteousness.

I need to clarify something important. Achieving perfection in this life is not a requirement for salvation. Our commitment to pursue perfection is. Will we endure, or will we give up?
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What you said above (in red) has stayed with me in thought. "...you were never intended to be perfect ..." Does a perfect God create imperfect results? Did Jesus suffer because His Father's creations went awry?

How can you say we were never intended to be perfect, when we are commanded to be so? If we were created in His Likeness, is His Likeness not perfection? Does this statement suggest that we were not given this earth life so that we can overcome all things?
1 John 5:
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

You are correct that belief in Jesus Christ is the means for salvation. Look at 1 John 5, and see what true and genuine belief can do, ... but you say we cannot do it!

 

[peebly63]

I need to clarify something important. Achieving perfection in this life is not a requirement for salvation. Our commitment to pursue perfection is. Will we endure, or will we give up?
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What you said above (in red) has stayed with me in thought. "...you were never intended to be perfect ..." Does a perfect God create imperfect results? Did Jesus suffer because His Father's creations went awry?

How can you say we were never intended to be perfect, when we are commanded to be so? If we were created in His Likeness, is His Likeness not perfection? Does this statement suggest that we were not given this earth life so that we can overcome all things?
1 John 5:
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

You are correct that belief in Jesus Christ is the means for salvation. Look at 1 John 5, and see what true and genuine belief can do, ... but you say we cannot do it!

but you said earlier if you continue to sin you were never saved in the first place and are wishy washy, i think is the term you used.

So you seem to be moving the goalposts so to speak are you now saying you only have to be sinless to remain saved?

 

[Norah63]

Just reading along as you two post. It would seem that if an orthodox doesn't lean on their sinful nature, they feel they are robing God of grace. That sounds a bit off, but it's the drift I get.
To agree that we should strive to be all that Jesus called us to be, doesn't enter the picture somehow.
Sorry for interrupting, carry on.

 

[MormonFriend]

but you said earlier if you continue to sin you were never saved in the first place and are wishy washy, i think is the term you used.

So you seem to be moving the goalposts so to speak are you now saying you only have to be sinless to remain saved?

I truly wish that I understood what is meant when you say us being sinless. Once we have sinned, we cannot turn back the clock and erase it. We are tarnished and stained, even if a person only commits one single sin. (I doubt that has ever been, but just for illustration.) We can "sin no more", but we can never become sinless.

But our sins can be cleansed, and the demands of justice have been satisfied by Christ, who purchased us if we repent. It is impossible to cleanse us if we still wallow in the muck of sin that stains us. We must choose to deny ourselves and come out of the muck. We must loose the desire for sin, and that can only happen if something takes its place, namely a love for God with all our heart, mind, might and strength. That love will only develop if we prime the pump, so to speak. If you do not fully understand what it means to prime the pump, google it. The works that Jesus gave us to do are, by design, the enabling primer. With devoted attention to His works, we can become converted to the joy that these works bring us, if we will allow the refining influence of works to remove our pride. That joy will replace any and all desire to sin. Jesus said that when we sin, we are the servants of sin. That is bondage! We must be rescued or "saved" from that bondage!

I said that those who chose to believe, and demonstrate that belief by doing the will and works of God are separated by those who have wishy washy belief who deny that works are necessary. (No offense intended, as I realize it could come across that way. The real offense would be to not speak in truth, and this is what I understand as truth.)

We are not saved until the end, because enduring to the end is a written definition of salvation. We can have assurance that we are on the protected path that leads us to salvation, but we must remain on that path. Sin takes us off that path, and if not repented of will alter our understandings of the things of God as well.