Water baptism

[Frogster]

The other aspect of baptism that makes it absolutely necessary for new converts to submit to immediately upon conversion is:

ALL BELIEVERS ARE PRIESTS UNTO GOD UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF OUR HIGH PRIEST, JESUS CHRIST

Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 2:17, 3:1, 6:20, 8:1).

According to the word of God in Exodus 29:4, all high priests had to be washed with water before they were allowed to serve in their role. This is why Jesus made the statement at his baptism that his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. He knew the command of Exodus 29:4 and knew his calling was to become the eternal high priest after Melchezidek. So he had to submit to baptism in order to take on his high priestly office.

Likewise priests served under the high priest. He was their designator and their superior. Like the high priest, ordinary priests were required to be washed with water before serving in their role (Numbers 8:6-7). Peter (1 Peter 2:5,9) and John (Revelation 1:5-6) described all believers in Christ as priests unto God. We are called to offer sacrifices to God that he finds acceptable, and only priests could offer acceptable sacrifices to God. Even in the Old Testament, an anointed king of Israel was not allowed to circumvent the priesthood of God to offer sacrifice as King Saul found out. So we MUST fulfill our priestly calling in order to offer truly acceptable sacrifices to God. This can only... ONLY be done after we have been washed with "water of purification" (Numbers 8:7).

So as Jesus, our High Priest, was baptized to take on his role and calling, we too must be baptized in order to take on our role and calling of priests unto God.

you mention priests?

hmmm..the Bible does not even say they were baptized!

6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

 

[Frogster]

Again, most of the verses in Acts, which show conversions, don't mention baptism.

Paul was not sent to baptize, and he evangelized, wouldn't you think an evangelist would be very water minded, if it were mandatory, or ergent?

He only did a few, with all of the Corinthian conversions. And again, he seemed to minmize it.

 

[Frogster]

Rom 6, and Col 2, happen without water, it is commonly known as conversion, like the man from Miami!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Rom 6, and Col 2, happen without water, it is commonly known as conversion, like the man from Miami!

No they do not happen without water. You can't prove (much to your insistance that you have) that Romans 6 and Col are without water. I already did show you and others that "baptized into Christ" is always a reference to water baptism. As expected, it doesn't fit your whacky theology so you don't accept it and interject hypotheticals and what ifs to try and negate it.

 

[Edial]

Unfortunately, the promoters of Luthers "faith only" doctrine are preventing untold numbers of believers from ever being baptized, as they see it something that you should probably do at some point, but is completely optional.

I am a Lutheran - ALL of our members are baptized.
If you find ONE Lutheran who is not baptized, we can put him in a zoo for parents to show their children - here is a Lutheran who is not baptized.

Luther's faith apart from works doctrine kept baptism as close to our skin as possible.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The scariest thing about your point of view on this frog is that by negating the IMPORTANCE of water baptism, you may in fact be promoting disobedience to Christ. For either someone needs to be baptized in water, or they do not because it's just a show. There really is no in between on the matter.

Some may say baptism is necessary as a sign of obedience to a CLEAR COMMAND of Jesus and even just to follow Him as He was baptized. In that way we can say, baptism is necessary and should be done as soon as possible because before Jesus healed anyone, before he preached to anyone, he was baptized.

Others, like yourself, say it's not important. Don't worry about it. You are nullifying a command of Christ to make following him easier. That is a dangerous thing to do.

Baptism in water is IMPORTANT to the faith and as such, we should encourage all new converts to be baptized immediately. Teach them about baptism later once they have been baptized. Those 3,000 in Acts 2 had no idea what baptism was about really, they may have known about it from John, but they were baptized first then learned about it and other commands of Jesus. As did Cornelius and the Philippian jailer.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I am a Lutheran - ALL of our members are baptized.
If you find ONE Lutheran who is not baptized, we can put him in a zoo for parents to show their children - here is a Lutheran who is not baptized.

Luther's faith apart from works doctrine kept baptism as close to our skin as possible.

Not going to lie to ya Ed, I would probably be Lutheran if not for the tendency to avoid "Charismatic" practice. I have read a little on Lutheranism and from what I know about it, the denomination as a whole generally frowns upon Charismatic displays. I'm not trying to defend some Charismatic practices, some are just down right ridiculous, but some are genuine and really quite powerful in their practice.

 

[Edial]

Not going to lie to ya Ed, I would probably be Lutheran if not for the tendency to avoid "Charismatic" practice. I have read a little on Lutheranism and from what I know about it, the denomination as a whole generally frowns upon Charismatic displays. I'm not trying to defend some Charismatic practices, some are just down right ridiculous, but some are genuine and really quite powerful in their practice.

Our local church is a conservative charismatic Lutheran.
I am one of the few however, who does not clap nor raises hands.

You are correct though - not to many.

 

[Frogster]

No they do not happen without water. You can't prove (much to your insistance that you have) that Romans 6 and Col are without water. I already did show you and others that "baptized into Christ" is always a reference to water baptism. As expected, it doesn't fit your whacky theology so you don't accept it and interject hypotheticals and what ifs to try and negate it.

I will prove it right now..

Did the man from miami, have a conversion, get born again, die with Christ, get raised up, have sin remission/cleansing, have his flesh go to the cross 6:6, have all of his sins forgiven, experiencing all of the things in Col 2, and Rom 6, without water?

 

[Frogster]

The scariest thing about your point of view on this frog is that by negating the IMPORTANCE of water baptism, you may in fact be promoting disobedience to Christ. For either someone needs to be baptized in water, or they do not because it's just a show. There really is no in between on the matter.

Some may say baptism is necessary as a sign of obedience to a CLEAR COMMAND of Jesus and even just to follow Him as He was baptized. In that way we can say, baptism is necessary and should be done as soon as possible because before Jesus healed anyone, before he preached to anyone, he was baptized.

Others, like yourself, say it's not important. Don't worry about it. You are nullifying a command of Christ to make following him easier. That is a dangerous thing to do.

Baptism in water is IMPORTANT to the faith and as such, we should encourage all new converts to be baptized immediately. Teach them about baptism later once they have been baptized. Those 3,000 in Acts 2 had no idea what baptism was about really, they may have known about it from John, but they were baptized first then learned about it and other commands of Jesus. As did Cornelius and the Philippian jailer.

no, what is scary is how you mandate it, without saying you are mandating it.

You also make it an emergency.

What if a guy got saved up north in November, but wanted to be baptized in lake Erie, is he allowed to wait until the end of July?

By the way, lets always remember the good thief..

 

[Edial]

no, what is scary is how you mandate it, without saying you are mandating it.

You make it an emergency.

What if a guy got saved up north in November, but wanted to be baptized in lake Erie, is he allowed to wait until the end of July?

By the way, lets always remember the good thief..

In my profile you should see a picture me (handsome guy on the right) baptizing some folks. Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.

On another occasion I baptized an older men at his home in a bathtub.
When I came over, I saw he put some scented soap in the water, to make it "special".
I had the water drained and tub refilled again.

The attitude of heart is very important during baptism.
If we start idolizing it by added scented soap, or making it an afterthought by postponing it till Aunt Lucy takes her vacation in 6 months and we could all celebrate because she always wanted to come over to see the family ... we are missing the boat.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Frogster]

So long as one insists, that Col 2, and rom 6, have to be water, they mandate it for salvation, one has to be near water, to complete the equation, definition of col 2, and rom 6, the definition of our conversion moment. 6 and 2 can't work then..

The man from miami could not get saved, no baptismal on the plane!

 

[Frogster]

In my profile you should see a picture me (handsome guy on the right) baptizing some folks. Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.

On another occasion I baptized an older men at his home in a bathtub.
When I came over, I saw he put some scented soap in the water, to make it "special".
I had the water drained and tub refilled again.

The attitude of heart is very important during baptism.
If we start idolizing it by added scented soap, or making it an afterthought by postponing it till Aunt Lucy takes her vacation in 6 months and we could all celebrate because she always wanted to come over to see the family ... we are missing the boat.

Thanks,
Ed

Good morning Edster, yes, it can be an idol, and again, I really would never look to diminish ones won personal subjective experiences.

Ok, but likewise the lake erie person, has some kind of deep feelings for wanting to wait, and also get baptized in lake erie, which I must respect too.

 

[Frogster]

In my profile you should see a picture me (handsome guy on the right) baptizing some folks. Brighton Beach, Brooklyn.

On another occasion I baptized an older men at his home in a bathtub.
When I came over, I saw he put some scented soap in the water, to make it "special".
I had the water drained and tub refilled again.

The attitude of heart is very important during baptism.
If we start idolizing it by added scented soap, or making it an afterthought by postponing it till Aunt Lucy takes her vacation in 6 months and we could all celebrate because she always wanted to come over to see the family ... we are missing the boat.

Thanks,
Ed

Ps, yeah, you look handsome..

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I will prove it right now..

Did the man from miami, have a conversion, get born again, die with Christ, get raised up, have sin remission/cleansing, have his flesh go to the cross 6:6, have all of his sins forgiven, experiencing all of the things in Col 2, and Rom 6, without water?

A person cannot complete Romans 6:3-5 OR Colossians 2:11-13 without WATER baptism. That is plain in the Bible, I didn't make that up.

I do believe that a person may die and go to heaven without baptism if, and I do mean IF, certain circumstances existed that prevented them from being baptized. But if a person goes on in disobedience to Christ they are setting themselves up for dramatic failure in my eyes.

I may even see Jesus warning of Matthew 7:21-23 as those who only do the will of the Father - being a reference in part of baptism. If Jesus taught it, it was the will of the Father, and Jesus taught people who followed him must be baptized.

But if a person were prevented from being baptized by certain circumstances they may be granted entrance I believe. That DOES NOT mean that everybody is exempt from that requirement though. A deaf person may not ever be able to say with their mouth (as the requirement of Romans 10:9-10) "Jesus is Lord" but they can still be saved. You certainly aren't going to say a person doesn't really have to say "Jesus is Lord" because deaf people don't have to. It's the same idea.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

no, what is scary is how you mandate it, without saying you are mandating it.

You also make it an emergency.

What if a guy got saved up north in November, but wanted to be baptized in lake Erie, is he allowed to wait until the end of July?

By the way, lets always remember the good thief..

Well the Bible doesn't say a person must be baptized in Lake Erie. It just says baptized in water. It can be a bath tub, it can be a lake, a river. I would even suggest sprinkling may suffice. It's not about the letter of the law that's important, but the essence.

Baptism in scripture is really a submersion, but what's important to the process is the person's heart before God. Say for instance if I were preaching on the streets downtown and someone heard, repented, and wanted to be baptized then and there. I think it would be acceptable to get some water, pronounce the name of Jesus over the water, then sprinkle them with it.

The early church fathers, well some of them according to their writings accepted this.

 

[Frogster]

A person cannot complete Romans 6:3-5 OR Colossians 2:11-13 without WATER baptism. That is plain in the Bible, I didn't make that up.

I do believe that a person may die and go to heaven without baptism if, and I do mean IF, certain circumstances existed that prevented them from being baptized. But if a person goes on in disobedience to Christ they are setting themselves up for dramatic failure in my eyes.

I may even see Jesus warning of Matthew 7:21-23 as those who only do the will of the Father - being a reference in part of baptism. If Jesus taught it, it was the will of the Father, and Jesus taught people who followed him must be baptized.

But if a person were prevented from being baptized by certain circumstances they may be granted entrance I believe. That DOES NOT mean that everybody is exempt from that requirement though. A deaf person may not ever be able to say with their mouth (as the requirement of Romans 10:9-10) "Jesus is Lord" but they can still be saved. You certainly aren't going to say a person doesn't really have to say "Jesus is Lord" because deaf people don't have to. It's the same idea.

you're saying 2 things. At least Bob said no.

Then how could the miami guy, who by the way, many can die before baptism, be saved? How can you say he did complete his salvation because of no water?

Do you now see how you are mandating?

you just did it here, but not as clear as bob did.

I guess all of the people in hospitals who die, where they can not be baptized, can't have conversion, they can't have the glories of rom 6, and Col 2?

you need to please rethink your dogmatic theology, thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

Well the Bible doesn't say a person must be baptized in Lake Erie. It just says baptized in water. It can be a bath tub, it can be a lake, a river. I would even suggest sprinkling may suffice. It's not about the letter of the law that's important, but the essence.

Baptism in scripture is really a submersion, but what's important to the process is the person's heart before God. Say for instance if I were preaching on the streets downtown and someone heard, repented, and wanted to be baptized then and there. I think it would be acceptable to get some water, pronounce the name of Jesus over the water, then sprinkle them with it.

The early church fathers, well some of them according to their writings accepted this.

It doesn't say they can't choose lake erie for some reason that they may have, or that they can't wait.

 

[Frogster]

you served in the military, what about dying soldiers that die on the field?

there are countless scenarios where there was no water, so according to you, like the miami man, there is no rom 6, or col 2, for these situations, which are many, not rare, or special.

but, if we listen to the frog, and know it is about union, the Miami man is ok.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

you're saying 2 things. At least Bob said no.

Then how could the miami guy, who by the way, many can die before baptism, be saved? How can you say he did complete his salvation because of no water?

Do you now see how you are mandating?

you just did it here, but not as clear as bob did.

I guess all of the people in hospitals who die, where they can not be baptized, can't have conversion, they can't have the glories of rom 6, and Col 2?

you need to please rethink your dogmatic theology, thanks, frog.

Man, this is why no one likes to discuss matters with you. You have been shown, scripture with ZERO interjection that say "baptism is for the forgiveness of sins"... that in baptism we are raised with Christ from the old body of flesh... and all you do is hypothetical your way into some form of belief that none of the Apostles would have espoused.

You always say, "Show me text", and then when you are shown the text, you "ohh well really what is going on...." Just give up bro, you lost this one. For you to continue you are indeed promoting disobedience to Christ. But this thread isn't about you or your false view of the subject. It's about THE subject itself, Water Baptism. Your view isn't the only one. I grant you that. But it doesn't make it right. Scriptures are very plain about the role and purpose of baptism. It was negated and nullified by preachers who wanted to pad their stats and make it easier to believe.