How do Calvinists View Non-Calvinists?

[Inkfingers]

She is a Calvinist, and I am a Quaker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_jNklBqVCA

How do Calvinists view non-Calvinists

That depends on what the non-Calvinist is like. Speaking as a Calvinist I would say that non-Calvinist theology is in error, but as for non-Calvinist people....well that depends on each person. Some are nice, some are not. Some are wise, some are foolish.

 

[merrykate]

So far, no fire between us, inkfingers!

And what makes the criteria for a false god, twin? Surely, a person must study the Scriptures, believe them to be true, and then consciously reject what they present in order to fully embrace a false god. Erred doctrine (whatever that may be-- In my case, I believe Calvinism is in error), cannot be synonymous with a false god. If that is the case, then every Christian denomination worships a different god, and only one--or even none--is completely correct. I, along with many other Christians, have studied scriptures thoroughly and have concluded that the god of Calvin is simply not presented there.

 

[BryanW92]

The good news is that it doesn't matter.

If Calvinists are right, the Arminian who desires to choose God is one of the Elect anyway.

If Arminians are right, the Calvinist who believes that he is one of the Elect and is grateful for that has chosen God anyway.

If Universalists are right, the Calvinists and Arminians will have a lot of company in heaven.

 

[twin1954]

So far, no fire between us, inkfingers!

And what makes the criteria for a false god, twin? Surely, a person must study the Scriptures, believe them to be true, and then consciously reject what they present in order to fully embrace a false god. Erred doctrine (whatever that may be-- In my case, I believe Calvinism is in error), cannot be synonymous with a false god. If that is the case, then every Christian denomination worships a different god, and only one--or even none--is completely correct. I, along with many other Christians, have studied scriptures thoroughly and have concluded that the god of Calvin is simply not presented there.

A false god is any idea of a god that doesn't line up with the One revealed in the Scriptures. Obviously you think the God of Calvinism is a false God.

Could it be that you are reading your theology into the Scriptures instead of getting them from the Scriptures?

How many passages of Scripture would I need to give you that clearly show God as the Sovereign of all Creation? How many would it take for you to grasp that any other god is a false god?

Should I take the time to show you from the Scriptures or would I be wasting my time?

 

[twin1954]

The good news is that it doesn't matter.

If Calvinists are right, the Arminian who desires to choose God is one of the Elect anyway.

If Arminians are right, the Calvinist who believes that he is one of the Elect and is grateful for that has chosen God anyway.

If Universalists are right, the Calvinists and Arminians will have a lot of company in heaven.

So then what the Scriptures say doesn't really matter? Be careful that you don't allow compassion to cause you to compromise truth. Certainly we are to have compassion for those who oppose themselves but we can never allow our desires and compassion to compromise the truth.

There are not many truths and many ways. There is only one way and one truth and one Gospel.

As I said it isn't a matter of some folks having error, Calvin was in error about a great many things but he was a believer. Luther was in error on a great many things but he too was a believer. Both of those men knew who God is and who Christ is. You cannot believe in a God or Christ whom you do not know.

Again it isn't a matter of what you know it is who you know.

 

[BryanW92]

So then what the Scriptures say doesn't really matter? Be careful that you don't allow compassion to cause you to compromise truth. Certainly we are to have compassion for those who oppose themselves but we can never allow our desires and compassion to compromise the truth.

There are not many truths and many ways. There is only one way and one truth and one Gospel.

As I said it isn't a matter of some folks having error, Calvin was in error about a great many things but he was a believer. Luther was in error on a great many things but he too was a believer. Both of those men knew who God is and who Christ is. You cannot believe in a God or Christ whom you do not know.

Again it isn't a matter of what you know it is who you know.

Arminians have their proof texts. Calvinists have theirs. I switched from Arminianism to Calvinism because the Arminian proofs don't hold water as well as the Calvinist proofs.

But, God chose to make the gospel a lot more vague than he chose to make the Hebrew Bible. There has to be a reason for that, and I think that the reason is that Jesus does all the work anyway, so the details of salvation are not our business. It's a gift. Take it. Unwrap it. Enjoy it. Be grateful. Period.

If he had given us a salvation checklist, then we'd have to do things to make sure that all the boxes are checked. This is why I left the Methodists to join the PCA. The Methodists like to claim that its all grace, but they turn it into works to get you to participate in their Social Gospel. In the PCA, I can worship a God that acts like a Creator of the Universe should act and I can accept the gift of grace with no strings attached. All of my works can flow from gratitude and not as the result of a thinly-veiled threat of a "lost salvation".

 

[twin1954]

Arminians have their proof texts. Calvinists have theirs. I switched from Arminianism to Calvinism because the Arminian proofs don't hold water as well as the Calvinist proofs.

I say this with all seriousness and care, good choice but a bad reason for it. I know folks who change their theology like they change their clothes. I was this but now I am this and tomorrow I will be something else. We don't change our theology we come from the false to the true. Once we have the truth it changes everything else. We don't think the same, act the same or hope in the same things that we once did. Our worship changes and so does our service.

But, God chose to make the gospel a lot more vague than he chose to make the Hebrew Bible. There has to be a reason for that, and I think that the reason is that Jesus does all the work anyway, so the details of salvation are not our business. It's a gift. Take it. Unwrap it. Enjoy it. Be grateful. Period.

But the details are important. Our comfort and assurance come from the details. Our understanding and increasing faith come from the details. In Matt. 11:29 the Lord said learn on Me and find rest for your souls. The more we learn of the details the more we rest in Him.

At the same time we read of the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Cor. 11:3 The simple fact is that you cannot trust or worship a God who you don't know. He reveals Himself in the Scriptures and in the Gospel. All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ and He reveals the Father to whomever He will. Knowledge of God comes by revelation not by study or learning. Matt. 11:27, John 6:45

If he had given us a salvation checklist, then we'd have to do things to make sure that all the boxes are checked. This is why I left the Methodists to join the PCA. The Methodists like to claim that its all grace, but they turn it into works to get you to participate in their Social Gospel.

It isn't about a checklist it is about revealed knowledge. One of the things Paul told the Thessalonians were how he knew their election of God was the fact that they turned from idols to serve the living God. 1Thess. 1:9

In the PCA, I can worship a God that acts like a Creator of the Universe should act and I can accept the gift of grace with no strings attached. All of my works can flow from gratitude and not as the result of a thinly-veiled threat of a "lost salvation".

Your own words betray the fact that you now worship a different God. I am not trying to be mean or controversial but I do want to speak the truth in love. I will leave off this topic now though for I get into trouble with the mods every time I speak on this topic.

 

[BryanW92]

Your own words betray the fact that you now worship a different God. I am not trying to be mean or controversial but I do want to speak the truth in love. I will leave off this topic now though for I get into trouble with the mods every time I speak on this topic.

I can see why you get into trouble. It is insulting and ludicrous, not to mention extremely presumptuous, to say that it is a fact that I worship a different God based on a few words because I refuse to denounce Arminians as heretics, or whatever it is that you believe.

 

[twin1954]

I can see why you get into trouble. It is insulting and ludicrous, not to mention extremely presumptuous, to say that it is a fact that I worship a different God based on a few words because I refuse to denounce Arminians as heretics, or whatever it is that you believe.

My apologies if you were insulted or offended. I meant to do neither. I get into trouble with the mods on this topic because you are not allowed to question the salvation of anyone on this site. You are free to believe whatever you want but I only ask that you honestly consider what I have said after you have calmed down. At the very least you might begin to understand why I believe as I do. You still may not agree with me and that is OK too. Judge what I have said by the Scriptures and come to your own conclusion.

Again I apologize if I have insulted or offended you.

 

[BryanW92]

My apologies if you were insulted or offended. I meant to do neither. I get into trouble with the mods on this topic because you are not allowed to question the salvation of anyone on this site. You are free to believe whatever you want but I only ask that you honestly consider what I have said after you have calmed down. At the very least you might begin to understand why I believe as I do. You still may not agree with me and that is OK too. Judge what I have said by the Scriptures and come to your own conclusion.

Again I apologize if I have insulted or offended you.

I'm not insulted or offended and I am calm.

I'm just not sure that I understand what you believe that requires you to question people's salvation. What level of Calvinist do you see yourself to be? That might help me to see where you are coming from. I see myself as a Moderate Calvinist.

 

[twin1954]

I'm not insulted or offended and I am calm.

I'm just not sure that I understand what you believe that requires you to question people's salvation. What level of Calvinist do you see yourself to be? That might help me to see where you are coming from. I see myself as a Moderate Calvinist.

Again it isn't about questioning peoples salvation it is a simple understanding of truth that there is no salvation in a false god. Believe me it breaks my heart as I have loved ones who are caught up in religion. When I pass by all the churches, you can't go a mile without passing at least one where I live, I am heartbroken. I want with all that is in me for folks to know Christ. I want them to know the one that has actually saved sinners.

I would consider myself an ultrahigh Calvinist.

 

[BryanW92]

Again it isn't about questioning peoples salvation it is a simple understanding of truth that there is no salvation in a false god. Believe me it breaks my heart as I have loved ones who are caught up in religion. When I pass by all the churches, you can't go a mile without passing at least one where I live, I am heartbroken. I want with all that is in me for folks to know Christ. I want them to know the one that has actually saved sinners.

I would consider myself an ultrahigh Calvinist.

So, God won't choose to save a non-Calvinist? Calvinism teaches that regeneration precedes faith, right? God chose us before we were born and not because of our works or theology.

When I drive past those other churches, I wonder how many are sitting in there wondering why their theology has huge, gaping holes (as I felt when I was Methodist) that their clergy can't adequately explain. I don't question their salvation or their "truth". I just pray that they find their way out, not because their salvation depends on Calvin, but because their Christian walk will just be more satisfying when they understand the true nature of God.

 

[twin1954]

So, God won't choose to save a non-Calvinist? Calvinism teaches that regeneration precedes faith, right? God chose us before we were born and not because of our works or theology.

When I drive past those other churches, I wonder how many are sitting in there wondering why their theology has huge, gaping holes (as I felt when I was Methodist) that their clergy can't adequately explain. I don't question their salvation or their "truth". I just pray that they find their way out, not because their salvation depends on Calvin, but because their Christian walk will just be more satisfying when they understand the true nature of God.

Once more, it has nothing to do being a Calvinist or with the theology of Calvin. It has to do with knowing who God in Christ is. It isn't about what you know or don't know but Who. It isn't about us but about Him.

I believe it was George Whitefield who said that we are all Arminians by nature. We all want our free will and be the sovereign of our own destiny. When Christ calls a sinner by the Spirit through the Gospel He makes Himself known to them as He is not as they would like Him to be. He doesn't reveal Himself as a weak and helpless deity that must wait on them to do something. He always comes to the sinner first as Conqueror then as Comforter.

 

[twin1954]

Would you mind if we took this to PM? A public debate in the ask a Calvinist forum is probably inappropriate. I recognize that most Calvinists disagree with me and my views are my own based on the light given me through the Scriptures.

 

[BryanW92]

Would you mind if we took this to PM? A public debate in the ask a Calvinist forum is probably inappropriate. I recognize that most Calvinists disagree with me and my views are my own based on the light given me through the Scriptures.

We're both Calvinist, so there is no violation of the rules. I'm not even debating. I just wonder how an Ultra-Calvinist can consider a moderate Calvinist to be lost or without "truth".

 

[BryanW92]

He doesn't reveal Himself as a weak and helpless deity that must wait on them to do something. He always comes to the sinner first as Conqueror then as Comforter.

I agree with that. My own conversion experience bears witness to that. I think that people who do not have a strong conversion experience (i.e. those who were always Christians and knew it) tend to agree less with that because he never had to come to them as a Conquerer. He was more of an Occupier for them. Since they never had the strong experience, they think of him as the weak Arminian-style of God. (I'll avoid the use of "the God of the Arminians" vs "the God of the Calvinists" because he is the same God. It's just our view of him that is different.)

 

[twin1954]

We're both Calvinist, so there is no violation of the rules. I'm not even debating. I just wonder how an Ultra-Calvinist can consider a moderate Calvinist to be lost or without "truth".

I hope that I have never even intimated that you are lost or without truth.

Yeah I know it isn't against the rules but it doesn't look very good to those who read this and want to ask questions. In house debates should be done in the general Semper forum.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We ALL have a distorted view of God, even you, brother Twin. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." - 1 Cor 13:12. However, a distorted view is completely different than a "false" God. It's pretty twisted (wicked) to say of ever person who don't not hold to hyper-calvinism that he worships a false God.

Hyper-Calvinists only understand God's sovereignty, but ignore man's responsibility. There is a tension between the two that most people can't handle so they completely favor one and ignore the other.

BTW, I am a Christian who happens to agree with Calvin's 5 points.

 

[twin1954]

We ALL have a distorted view of God, even you, brother Twin. "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." - 1 Cor 13:12. However, a distorted view is completely different than a "false" God. It's pretty twisted (wicked) to say of ever person who don't not hold to hyper-calvinism that he worships a false God.

Hyper-Calvinists only understand God's sovereignty, but ignore man's responsibility. There is a tension between the two that most people can't handle so they completely favor one and ignore the other.

BTW, I am a Christian who happens to agree with Calvin's 5 points.

First I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I was raised as one but shed that when I actually began to study the Scriptures and found out what the preaching of the Gospel is and how it is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe.

Second it isn't about how much we know about God. How many times do I have to say it. Nor is it a matter of having a distorted view of God. As someone said, I think it was Pink, men no longer build idols out of tree stumps and cover them with gold they now go into the forest of their imaginations and carve them out a god they can worship and call him jesus. But he doesn't even resemble the God of the Scriptures. A distorted view is a world apart from a completely false understanding of God. What you are actually saying, forgive my breaking it down to the simple rather than putting words in your mouth, is that God doesn't reveal Himself as the same God to all His people. The problem with that is that it can't be supported by the Scriptures.

 

[AMR]

How do Calvinists view non-Calvinists--Or, especially, Christians like myself who hold views deviating far from Calvinism but, nonetheless, believe such things based upon our strongest biblical study and convictions?

These are the essentials (live and do this):

1. the Trinity: the Godhead eternally exists in three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—and that these three are one God, having precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections, and worthy of precisely the same homage, confidence, and obedience

(Matt. 28:18–19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3–4; 2 Cor. 13:14; Heb. 1:1–3; Rev. 1:4–6)

2. the full deity and humanity of Christ

(Luke 1:30–35; John 1:18; 3:16; Heb. 4:15; Luke 2:40; John 1:1–2; Phil. 2:5–8)

3. the spiritual lostness of the human race

(Gen. 1:26; 2:17; 6:5; Pss. 14:1–3; 51:5; Jer. 17:9; John 3:6; 5:40; 6:35; Rom. 3:10–19; 8:6–7; Eph. 2:1–3; 1 Tim. 5:6; 1 John 3:8)

4. the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ

(John 1:11; Acts 2:22–24; 1 Tim. 2:6; John 1:29; Rom. 3:25–26; 2 Cor. 5:14; Heb. 10:5–14; 1 Pet. 3:18; John 20:20; Phil. 3:20–21; Heb. 1:3; Eph. 1:22–23; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1)

5. salvation by faith alone in Christ alone with assurance of eternal security

(Lev. 17:11; Isa. 64:6; Matt. 26:28; John 3:7–18; Rom. 5:6–9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13; 6:15; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 3:4–9; Titus 3:5; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:18–19, 23; John 1:12; 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:29; Acts 13:39; 16:31; Rom. 1:16–17; 3:22, 26; 4:5; 10:4; Gal. 3:22; John 5:24; 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 7:25; Luke 10:20; 22:32; 2 Cor. 5:1, 6–8; 2 Tim. 1:12; Heb. 10:22; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 2:1–2; 5:13; Jude 24)

6. the physical return of Christ

(Deut. 30:1–10; Isa. 11:9; Ezek. 37:21–28; Matt. 24:15–25:46; Acts 15:16–17; Rom. 8:19–23; 11:25–27; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; Rev. 20:1–3); and

7. the authority and inerrancy of Scripture

(Mark 12:26, 36; 13:11; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:39; Acts 1:16; 17:2–3; 18:28; 26:22–23; 28:23; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 2:13; 10:11; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21).
​

Clearly anyone, including Arminians, Catholics, and open theists, who believe these things can be considered a saved brother or sister, even if we view them as "just barely" saved because of their confusion.

I am convinced the true believer's walk of faith will be towards the full truths of Scripture, including the wonderful doctrines of grace. I am also convinced that their walk of faith, if it be the will of God that they live so long, will eventually also lead them away from their earthly church communions wherein such essentials are denied or diluted. That said, some persons may not approach the full understanding of these things on this side of the grave and therefore deny themselves the full measures of grace due them beforehand.

In the end at our final glory it will matter not, for all persons in heaven will have full cups--but some cups will just be larger than others', yet everyone will be as blessed as they are so capable.

I become very concerned when I read the Reformed or Calvinist declaring those that do not strictly adhere to our tenets of doctrine as lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent. Note that here I speak of broad statements and generalizations, not in matters of specifics of this or that person whose views and their openness to correction are made available for examination and discerning judgment.

We Reformed are well within our rights to declare the boundaries of our communion of faith, but we overstep our bounds when we set about to declaring those that disagree with us on all the finer points are indeed on the rocky road to being sons or daughters of perdition. Yes, perhaps this one or that one will be so, but we certainly cannot know this and it is an egregious sin to dogmatically proceed along these lines.

Lest I have not been clear, it is my view that there are many outside the Reformed communion with whom I will be shaking hands in our glory.