• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Christians are not commanded to observe the seventh day.

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No where in Holy Writ do we find the Sabbath called the Lord's Day. .

Fact: Nowhere in the NT do you find week day 1 called the "Lord's Day"

But we do have this ...

Mark 2:28 "The SON of Man is LORD of the Sabbath"

Is 58:14 The Sabbath is the "Holy day of the LORD"

Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath seventh day is made a Holy day for all mankind "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down" -- true even after the cross and at the time of the "New heavens and New Earth" of Rev 21.

Other than that - no day is specified in either OT or NT as the "Lord's Day".

That the Lord's Day as given by God in the Bible was the Sabbath - the seventh day -- is admitted to even by the following RC commentary on the post Vatican-II Baltimore Catechism

===========================

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the
Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Fishing around in the old testament for commands about the seventh day is irrelevant to Christians being commanded to observe the seventh day because the old testament passages are addressed to Israel and to Judah not to Christians.

Turns out the RCC does not agree with that ...


[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment (numbered 3 by Roman Catholics).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter [/FONT]

========================== Dies Domini begin
[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."[/FONT]

=============================== Dies Domini ... end quote

The quote I gave from Dies Domini is fully consistent with the examples I gave from the Catholic Catechism - at least that is what we appear to have in the details of those quotes.

You provide no one example of Dies Domini or the CCC objecting to the 7 points listed in the OP. No not one.

I offer a perfect example to test the points -- in quotes from your own CCC. All you have done in the above post is ask if I have read - D. D. in its entirety.???

I say again that 6 of the 7 points appear here.

[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Here is an example of claims made by a number of pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.
 
Upvote 0

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Fact: Nowhere in the NT do you find week day 1 called the "Lord's Day"

But we do have this ...

Mark 2:28 "The SON of Man is LORD of the Sabbath"

Is 58:14 The Sabbath is the "Holy day of the LORD"

Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath seventh day is made a Holy day for all mankind "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down" -- true even after the cross and at the time of the "New heavens and New Earth" of Rev 21.

Other than that - no day is specified in either OT or NT as the "Lord's Day".

That the Lord's Day as given by God in the Bible was the Sabbath - the seventh day -- is admitted to even by the following RC commentary on the post Vatican-II Baltimore Catechism

===========================

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the
Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.

My copy says -

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isa 58:14
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
And certainly that is a good verse - I should have included vs 13 as well.

“If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Turns out - this question is still a good one...

The reason for the change in the Sabbath was out of understanding what the Sabbath fundamentally is.

It is a day of reverence to the Lord. The difference was that before, it was about revering God and Creation. Now, it is about revering Christ.

It doesn't make any sense for a Christian to have the Sabbath on Saturday and not Sunday, which is the triumph day of Jesus.

Is it your claim that until the fall or until the cross the people of God should be worshiping God as our "Creator" but after the resurrection of Christ that would be replaced by the importance of worshiping him as "Savior" ??

An interesting response..

Exactly. It's not about Creation anymore, it's about the Apocalypse. .

And of course -- the Apocalypse that settles the matter as did Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Rev 21 describes the "new heavens and new earth" that appear after the 1000 years millennium -

Is 66:23 describes Sabbath keeping - Sabbath as Isaiah would have known it - and his contemporary readers would have known it - continued in the "New Heavens and New Earth" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before ME to bow down and worship"

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPing the Commandments of God"

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jewish magisterium "thought" they had a good "higher purpose" that would allow them to set aside one of the Commandments of God -- Christ informs them "sola scriptura" that their tradition is - error.

So then do you seek to edit the Sabbath Commandment and point it to week-day-1? Or to abolish the Sabbath Commandment and replace it with week-day-1??

in Christ,

Bob


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
And certainly that is a good verse - I should have included vs 13 as well.

“If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

Let's name the anonymous group being addressed in the quote.
If because of the Sabbath, Israelites turn Israelite feet
From doing their own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honourable,
And honour it, desisting from their own ways,
From seeking their own pleasure
And speaking their own word​
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Let's name the anonymous group being addressed in the quote.
If because of the Sabbath, Israelites turn Israelite feet
From doing their own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honourable,
And honour it, desisting from their own ways,
From seeking their own pleasure
And speaking their own word​

So then you do think the TEN Commandments are just for Jews no matter what your own church says to the contrary?

[FONT=&quot] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
God's OT moral Law - for ALL mankind -- not just Jews. Because what some call "unnamed" in Is 66 -- God calls "all mankind".


Is 66:23 describes Sabbath keeping - Sabbath as Isaiah would have known it - and his contemporary readers would have known it - continued in the "New Heavens and New Earth" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before ME to bow down and worship"

And in Jer 31:31-33

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Heb 8: 8-10

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Romans 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
So then you do think the TEN Commandments are just for Jews ...

The commandments were given to Israel so it is the Israelites to whom they were addressed.

I wonder why you couch your questions like a spin doctor in a political campaign would?

The commandments were objectively addressed to the Israelites. That's a fact. There's no need to dress it up in endless verbiage.

Your questions are not about the facts, what your questions are about is interpreting the commandments. That's an entirely different matter.

How do you interpret the ten commandments?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Let's name the anonymous group being addressed in the quote.
If because of the Sabbath, Israelites turn Israelite feet
From doing their own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honourable,
And honour it, desisting from their own ways,
From seeking their own pleasure
And speaking their own word​

So then you do think the TEN Commandments are just for Jews no matter what your own church says to the contrary?

[FONT=&quot] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]



The commandments were given to Israel so it is the Israelites to whom they were addressed.

So then you would edit JP II "the great" as some call him - from

[FONT=&quot]it [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](the [/FONT]Decaloge) [/FONT]is N[FONT=&quot]OT [/FONT]within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations

[FONT=&quot]to this "[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]it [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](the [/FONT]Decaloge) IS[/FONT][/FONT] within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations "[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
The commandments were objectively addressed to the Israelites. That's a fact. There's no need to dress it up in endless verbiage.
Is "endless verbage" what you call the words of your own Popes and CCC??

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God's OT moral Law - for ALL mankind -- not just Jews. Because what some call "unnamed" in Is 66 -- God calls "all mankind".


Is 66:23 describes Sabbath keeping - Sabbath as Isaiah would have known it - and his contemporary readers would have known it - continued in the "New Heavens and New Earth" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before ME to bow down and worship"

And in Jer 31:31-33

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Heb 8: 8-10

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Romans 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Hey, Bob, what advice do you give to people who live in areas where they are experiencing six months of night? How can they mark a Sabbath from one sun down to another?

Humans may colonize Mars one of these days. Martian days are almost, but not quite, the same length as ours. How do you recommend they honor the Sabbath, once they live on Mars?

There are people spending six months or longer on the International Space Station, where they experience a "sunset" every two hours. How do you propose they honor the Sabbath?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Some "feel" that the CCC is dead wrong in this case when speaking of the "Ten Commandments" -- the "decalogue"

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
The commandments were given to Israel so it is the Israelites to whom they were addressed.

I wonder why you couch your questions like a spin doctor in a political campaign would?

The commandments were objectively addressed to the Israelites. That's a fact. There's no need to dress it up in endless verbiage.

Your questions are not about the facts, what your questions are about is interpreting the commandments. That's an entirely different matter.

How do you interpret the ten commandments?

... <snipped the spin and nothing was left> ...

Try again.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Ok -- more CCC statements that some "feel" are dead wrong about the TEN Commandments --

[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hey, Bob, what advice do you give to people who live in areas where they are experiencing six months of night?

That is a good question - do those people not go to church? no weekends? -- just work 6months then 6 months of worship??
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Obviously these OT references to LAW and Commandments - are being applied in the NT as we see in the texts below.

God's OT moral Law - for ALL mankind -- not just Jews. Because what some call "unnamed" in Is 66 -- God calls "all mankind".


Is 66:23 describes Sabbath keeping - Sabbath as Isaiah would have known it - and his contemporary readers would have known it - continued in the "New Heavens and New Earth" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before ME to bow down and worship"

And in Jer 31:31-33

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Heb 8: 8-10

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Romans 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
At some point a member of the RCC will likely show up here and then insist that the CCC statements as quoted here - #76 and here #69 are in fact correct regarding the Bible fact that the TEN Commandments apply to Christians even today .. let's wait and see.

Might take a while.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Try again.

Ok --
... <snipped the spin and nothing much was left> ...

When one uses the Catechism of the Catholic Church context matters. Before quoting the sections about the ten commandments try quoting the sections about interpreting them. Have a look at sections 1950 to 1974. Of special interest to our readers will be the following sections. I will quote them rather than merely giving the numbers because the numbers need to be fleshed out enough for our readers to see for themselves why your approach is in error and why the interpretations you offer fail so badly.
III. The New Law or the Law of the Gospel

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:

If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life.... This sermon contains ... all the precepts needed to shape one's life.20

1967 The Law of the Gospel "fulfils," refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection.21 In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfils the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the "kingdom of heaven." It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfils the commandments of the Law. the Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. the Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.23

1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the "Father who sees in secret," in contrast with the desire to "be seen by men."24 Its prayer is the Our Father.25

1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between "the two ways" and to put into practice the words of the Lord.26 It is summed up in the Golden Rule, "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets."27
The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the "new commandment" of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.28

1971 To the Lord's Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lord's teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. "Let charity be genuine.... Love one another with brotherly affection.... Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality."29 This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church.30

1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who "does not know what his master is doing" to that of a friend of Christ - "For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" - or even to the status of son and heir.31

1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. the traditional distinction between God's commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. the precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. the aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.32

1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. the perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbour. the counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practised in keeping with the vocation of each:
(God) does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.33

19 Heb 8:8, 10; cf. Jer 31:31-34.
20 St. Augustine, De serm. Dom. 1, 1: PL 34,1229-1230.
21 Cf. &#8658; Mt 5:17-19.
22 Cf. &#8658; Mt 15:18-19.
23 Cf. &#8658; Mt 5:44,48.
24 Cf. &#8658; Mt 6:1-6; &#8658; 16-18.
25 Cf. &#8658; Mt 6:9-13; &#8658; Lk 11:2-4.
26 Cf. &#8658; Mt 7:13-14,21-27.
27 &#8658; Mt 7:12; cf. &#8658; Lk 6:31.
28 Cf. &#8658; Jn 15:12; &#8658; 13:34.
29 &#8658; Rom 12:9-13.
30 Cf. &#8658; Rom 14; &#8658; 1 Cor 5-10.
31 &#8658; Jn 15:15; cf. &#8658; Jas 1:25; &#8658; 2:12; &#8658; Gal 4:1-7. &#8658; 21-31; &#8658; Rom 8:15.
32 Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 184, 3.
33 St. Francis de Sales, Love of God 8, 6.​
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,404
11,943
Georgia
✟1,100,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
When one uses the Catechism of the Catholic Church context matters.

I find the "details" here as stated in English by the RCC sources themselves - to be incredibly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.



[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29[/FONT]


Some may point out that the statements above are not meant to negate the work of the Holy Spirit. In my quote of them I never argue that these statements are meant to negate the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0