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A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

JimFit

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The incredible odds of something being the way it is does not show it was finely tuned for being the way it is.

You start by declaring the universe is fine tuned for us; this is an assertion and you have no evidence for this.

What is not fine tuned then? With that assertion everything in the Universe is Fine Tuned, everywhere we look at there is fine tuning and chance cannot solve it neither your delusional Multiverses!

Fine tuning: Size of Earth | Uncommon Descent

Yes the Universe is Fine Tuned for us because we exist and because our Minds affect matter and not the other way around to claim that every element in the Universe is equal to us, obviously the fact that we are conscious precedes materialism and not it doesn't go against realism.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Because atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Lack of belief in gods does not necessarily imply nihilism.


See above.

What does bodies have to do with Consciousness?

Every consciousness with which we are familiar is associated with a functioning nervous system.

That doesn't make sense Αρχαιοπτέρυξ, Reductionism doesn't say that, it says that complexity is responsible for our consciousness, its not just the arrangement , we are not the only conscious beings in fact there are brainless organisms with different arrangement from ours and still are conscious.

Do you have any examples of disembodied minds that you'd like to share?
 
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JimFit

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Exactly. We know there was a purpose for the guitar's creation.

Yes to play music, what is your point? We are not talking about unconscious things here.

Please provide this proof that consciousness precedes matter.

Opening Quote from "Symmetries and Reflections: Scientific Essays" page 176

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPepr...

The Quantum Enigma

Observation in Quantum Mechanics and the 'Collapse of the Wavefunction'

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1961ZPh...

http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v47/...


http://philoscience.unibe.ch/document...


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvMx1...


http://link.springer.com/article/10.1...


[0704.2529] An experimental test of non-local realism


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/n...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttB3...


[quant-ph/9903047] A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser


http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/kim...


[1106.4481] Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system


http://www.newscientist.com/article/d...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiNJRh...


[1206.6578] Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice


http://www.nature.com/news/2007/07041...

[1207.5294] Quantum Randi Challenge

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/201...


http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/MAR07...


http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v...


http://www.livescience.com/19268-quan...


[0909.1469] Toward Quantum Superposition of Living Organisms


http://www.nature.com/news/2011/05041...


http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/200...


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/10031...


http://arxiv.org/pdf/0801.0337


[1407.2627] Super-intuition and correlations with the future in Quantum Consciousness

I don't understand how you don't get this.

1) How do you know something preceded the universe?

Because the Universe began

2) If something did, how do you know of its intentions?

Truth is one and God gave us Free Will He didn't just decided for us, His intention stopped in the 7th day (God rested), the Teachings of Christ are Universal, Love, Forgiveness, Mercy, Justice, Peace, Humility, Patience, Philanthropy and so on..are the teachings that lead to the Truth and even atheists embrace.

3) What physical necessity doesn't work here?

Physical Necessity for the Fine Tuning and the Universe in general.

You have to assert a purpose and intention first, before arriving at your conclusions.

For the third time God is Eternal, He has no purpose, Eternity is purposeless. The intention of God was to create us, His intention stopped in the 7th day when He rested and we took the authority of His Creation.
 
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JimFit

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Never mind. I see why you'll never understand how you are wrong.

Saying the mountain and landscape were fine tuned from the laws and constants of nature means you believe they were purposefully and intently made to be the way are; like a painter.

However, they were naturally formed, from the randomness of nature and time, not fine tuned.

Was the purpose and intent of the laws and constants of nature when they fine tuned the mountains and landscape?

But they couldn't be created if etc the gravitational constant was different. Randomness doesn't exist, the laws and the constants determine the result, what you are describing as Randomness is luck of information, if we could know all the information we could know the result.
 
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JimFit

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Like who? :confused:

The Philosophers that you own your "name" the Epicurean Philosophers, Atheos means without a God the fact that you describe yourself as an atheist means that you carry their definition an these people were hedonists because they philosophized the atheist thing and ended up in the conclusion that Materialism leads to hedonism therefor if you go against hedonism you carry some type of dualistic metaphysical morality worldview.

Why should this matter to me?

It matters because you can make another person an atheist and this person could easily be a hedonist.

No, it isn't. That is not at all a plausible name for my worldview, and it is not even a name for a worldview at all

So you believe in something from nothing? Prove it.

You may know what some atheists believe. However, since atheists may disagree on virtually any issue other than belief in the existence of a God or gods, and there is in fact a great variety of belief among atheists, you can't know what all atheists believe by knowing what "an atheist" believes.

All the atheists believe that there was no intention behind our creation. Simple. The only way to prove it is to believe that you will find a mindless cause that is physical.

Yes, but you had somehow turned that into "You said God is a Deity therefor His images are too deities". There is no logical connection between the two statements.

Sorry my mistake.


eudaimonia,

Ευδαιμονείτε

Μάρκος
 
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Eudaimonist

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The Philosophers that you own your "name" the Epicurean Philosophers

Epicurus was not an atheist. He believed in the existence of gods. I suppose one could call him a polydeist, since he did not believe that the gods were interested in human beings or listened to their prayers.

Atheos means without a God the fact that you describe yourself as an atheist means that you carry their definition an these people were hedonists because they philosophized the atheist thing and ended up in the conclusion that Materialism leads to hedonism therefor if you go against hedonism you carry some type of dualistic metaphysical morality worldview.

You are waaaaay off base here. Absurdly off base. I can't believe that I am reading someone write that.

I am familiar with Epicureanism. I'm not an Epicurean. I'm not even closely related to Epicurus or his followers philosophically.

Epicurus was influenced by Greek atomism (from Democritus), and I don't share much with him in that. Yes, I accept the modern idea of atoms, as per quantum physics, but that isn't really that close to Greek atomism except for retaining the word "atom". You keep trying to associate "Materialism" with me, but I am not a Materialist.

Also, it does not logically follow that if Materialists conclude hedonism, that therefore non-hedonists must be metaphysical dualists.

So you believe in something from nothing? Prove it.

I do not believe in something from nothing. That's something Christians believe in, with their doctrine of creation ex nihilo.

Like I said, you don't understand what I actually think about philosophy. You have consistently missed the target.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Non sequitur

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For the third time God is Eternal, He has no purpose, Eternity is purposeless. The intention of God was to create us, His intention stopped in the 7th day when He rested and we took the authority of His Creation.

Special pleading and circular reasoning.

This is not a logically sound statement when trying to determine anything, since the thing you are referencing is the thing in question.

But they couldn't be created if etc the gravitational constant was different. Randomness doesn't exist, the laws and the constants determine the result, what you are describing as Randomness is luck of information, if we could know all the information we could know the result.

More assertions: they were created instead of formed, there is no randomness, etc.

Law and constants allow results and determine what they can be. They do not willingly, intentionally or purposefully create specific results, unless you assume that they were "supposed to be that way" or "supposed to happen". Which is an assertion.

What is not fine tuned then? With that assertion everything in the Universe is Fine Tuned, everywhere we look at there is fine tuning and chance cannot solve it neither your delusional Multiverses!

Fine tuning: Size of Earth | Uncommon Descent

Yes the Universe is Fine Tuned for us because we exist and because our Minds affect matter and not the other way around to claim that every element in the Universe is equal to us, obviously the fact that we are conscious precedes materialism and not it doesn't go against realism.

I never said I believe nor don't believe in multiverses, nor do they have anything to do with any argument. Stop lying about what I believe and making things up.

"Because we exist" and "our minds affect matter" (whatever that means) is zero evidence for the universe being fine tuned.

It is your blind assertion that those qualities mean something significant.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Yes the Universe is Fine Tuned for us because we exist

This statement here is all you need to know about how jimfit's mind works. There is nothing to discuss. The logic is so backwards...

You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into. It's just fallacy after fallacy after fallacy

and because our Minds affect matter and not the other way around to claim that every element in the Universe is equal to us, obviously the fact that we are conscious precedes materialism and not it doesn't go against realism.

And what follows after the fallacious statement, is an incomprehensible word salad.
 
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JimFit

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Epicurus was not an atheist. He believed in the existence of gods. I suppose one could call him a polydeist, since he did not believe that the gods were interested in human beings or listened to their prayers.

He said that he couldn't prove that there are no Gods and he chose to disobey Him aka to live without a God. That's why he based his morality to nature and not to supernatural.

You are waaaaay off base here. Absurdly off base. I can't believe that I am reading someone write that.

I am familiar with Epicureanism. I'm not an Epicurean. I'm not even closely related to Epicurus or his followers philosophically.

Epicurus was influenced by Greek atomism (from Democritus), and I don't share much with him in that. Yes, I accept the modern idea of atoms, as per quantum physics, but that isn't really that close to Greek atomism except for retaining the word "atom". You keep trying to associate "Materialism" with me, but I am not a Materialist.

He was influenced about his view on Reductionism not his philosophy. You can be an atheist and follow a different philosophy of materialism, Epicurus was an Atheist AND thought everything as atoms. Epicurus also didn't discovered anything and Democritus was a Theist.

Also, it does not logically follow that if Materialists conclude hedonism, that therefore non-hedonists must be metaphysical dualists.

If follows it perfectly, the society you were raised is a Christian one, the Americans just continued the Christian set of laws which existed in Europe. Christianity changed a lot of laws and made people care more about family, values than personal desires. Orgies in the Paganist world for example were acceptable (if you were a man) but in the Christian world they were thought as destruction of the soul and therefor illegal.


I do not believe in something from nothing. That's something Christians believe in, with their doctrine of creation ex nihilo.

I am an Orthodox i believe in Ex Deo. Atheists like Krauss believe in something from nothing. Now prove me that the Physical Universe is Eternal when obviously it is not.

The Borde-Vilenkin-Guth Theorem states that any universe, which has, on average, a rate of expansion greater 1 that system had to have a finite beginning. This would apply in any multiverse scenario as well.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0110012v2.pdf
 
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JimFit

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This statement here is all you need to know about how jimfit's mind works. There is nothing to discuss. The logic is so backwards...

You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into. It's just fallacy after fallacy after fallacy

Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?

PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!



And what follows after the fallacious statement, is an incomprehensible word salad.

The Anthropic Principle doesn't solve the Fine Tuning, sorry.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?

PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!

You are putting words in atheists' mouths. No atheist that I have ever heard of has attributed our existence to some metaphysical form of "luck".

[Epicurus] said that he couldn't prove that there are no Gods and he chose to disobey Him aka to live without a God.

Source?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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JimFit

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Special pleading and circular reasoning.

Prove me that Randomness Nothingness or Infinite past causes exist. The only way to disprove intention is to prove Randomness, the only way to disprove the transcendence is to prove Metaphysical Materialism.

BVG THeorem destroyed Metaphysical Materialism. The Double Slip Experiement proved that Consciousness affects the result which means that it preceeds matter.

This is not a logically sound statement when trying to determine anything, since the thing you are referencing is the thing in question.

Why? Because you say so?

Something to have a purpose must have a result, Eternal nature doesn't have a result, it never ends by definition. You can't have a purpose when you are Eternal.

Humans have a purpose because humans are finite.


More assertions: they were created instead of formed, there is no randomness, etc.

Law and constants allow results and determine what they can be. They do not willingly, intentionally or purposefully create specific results, unless you assume that they were "supposed to be that way" or "supposed to happen". Which is an assertion.

Formed from Nothing? is that what you say? You can't escape something from nothing, the constants to form had to follow another constant that guides the formation and that chain of events can't go ad infinium. You clearly don't understand your fallacy.

Laws and Constants allowed intelligent life to unfold but the laws and the constants aren't seperate from matter, they describe matter and they can't exist without matter and for that reason they began to exist.

Did i said that the constants have intentions or will? They describe the will of God to reach His goal, us. Don't make me write again why His goal was us and not etc black holes.

Atheists Scientists accept the Fine Tuning

Wilczek: life appears to depend upon delicate coincidences that we have not been able to explain. The broad outlines of that situation have been apparent for many decades. When less was known, it seemed reasonable to hope that better understanding of symmetry and dynamics would clear things up. Now that hope seems much less reasonable. The happy coincidences between life’s requirements and nature’s choices of parameter values might be just a series of flukes, but one could be forgiven for beginning to suspect that something deeper is at work.
Hawking: “Most of the fundamental constants in our theories appear fine-tuned in the sense that if they were altered by only modest amounts, the universe would be qualitatively different, and in many cases unsuitable for the development of life. … The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned, and very little in physical law can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it.”
Rees: Any universe hospitable to life – what we might call a biophilic universe – has to be ‘adjusted’ in a particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the kind we know about — long-lived stable stars, stable atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to combine into complex molecules, etc — are sensitive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion rate and contents of the universe. Indeed, even for the most open-minded science fiction writer, ‘life’ or ‘intelligence’ requires the emergence of some generic complex structures: it can’t exist in a homogeneous universe, not in a universe containing only a few dozen particles. Many recipes would lead to stillborn universes with no atoms, no chemistry, and no planets; or to universes too short-lived or too empty to allow anything to evolve beyond sterile uniformity.
Linde: the existence of an amazingly strong correlation between our own properties and the values of many parameters of our world, such as the masses and charges of electron and proton, the value of the gravitational constant, the amplitude of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the electroweak theory, the value of the vacuum energy, and the dimensionality of our world, is an experimental fact requiring an explanation.
Susskind: The Laws of Physics … are almost always deadly. In a sense the laws of nature are like East Coast weather: tremendously variable, almost always awful, but on rare occasions, perfectly lovely. … [O]ur own universe is an extraordinary place that appears to be fantastically well designed for our own existence. This specialness is not something that we can attribute to lucky accidents, which is far too unlikely. The apparent coincidences cry out for an explanation.
Guth: in the multiverse, life will evolve only in very rare regions where the local laws of physics just happen to have the properties needed for life, giving a simple explanation for why the observed universe appears to have just the right properties for the evolution of life. The incredibly small value of the cosmological constant is a telling example of a feature that seems to be needed for life, but for which an explanation from fundamental physics is painfully lacking.
Smolin: Our universe is much more complex than most universes with the same laws but different values of the parameters of those laws. In particular, it has a complex astrophysics, including galaxies and long lived stars, and a complex chemistry, including carbon chemistry. These necessary conditions for life are present in our universe as a consequence of the complexity which is made possible by the special values of the parameters.
Victor Stenger: The most commonly cited examples of apparent fine-tuning can be readily explained by the application of a little well-established physics and cosmology. . . . ome form of life would have occurred in most universes that could be described by the same physical models as ours, with parameters whose ranges varied over ranges consistent with those models. … . My case against fine-tuning will not rely on speculations beyond well-established physics nor on the existence of multiple universes.
Fine Tuning due to Physical Necessity Chance or Design?

Physical Necessity?

Consider the first alternative, physical necessity.


This alternative seems extraordinarily implausible because the constants and quantities are independent of the laws of nature. The laws of nature are consistent with a wide range of values for these constants and quantities. For example, the most promising candidate for a Theory of Everything (T.O.E.) to date, super-string theory or M-Theory, allows a “cosmic landscape” of around 10500 different universes governed by the present laws of nature, so that it does nothing to render the observed values of the constants and quantities physically necessary.


Chance?

So what about the second alternative, that the fine-tuning is due to chance? The problem with this alternative is that the odds against the universe’s being life-permitting are so incomprehensibly great that they cannot be reasonably faced. In order to rescue the alternative of chance, its proponents have therefore been forced to adopt the hypothesis that there exists a sort of World Ensemble or multiverse of randomly ordered universes of which our universe is but a part. Now comes the key move: since observers can exist only in finely tuned worlds, of course we observe our universe to be fine-tuned!


So this explanation of fine-tuning relies on (i) the existence of a specific type of World Ensemble and (ii) an observer self-selection effect. Now this explanation, wholly apart from objections to (i), faces a very formidable objection to (ii), namely, the Boltzmann Brain problem. In order to be observable the entire universe need not be fine-tuned for our existence. Indeed, it is vastly more probable that a random fluctuation of mass-energy would yield a universe dominated by Boltzmann Brain observers than one dominated by ordinary observers like ourselves. In other words, the observer self-selection effect is explanatorily vacuous. As Robin Collins has noted, what needs to be explained is not just intelligent life, but embodied, interactive, intelligent agents like ourselves.[21] Appeal to an observer self-selection effect accomplishes nothing because there’s no reason whatever to think that most observable worlds or the most probable observable worlds are worlds in which that kind of observer exists. Indeed, the opposite appears to be true: most observable worlds will be Boltzmann Brain worlds.
Since we presumably are not Boltzmann Brains, that fact strongly disconfirms a naturalistic World Ensemble or multiverse hypothesis.


Design?​


It seems, then, that the fine-tuning is not plausibly due to physical necessity or chance. Therefore, we ought to prefer the hypothesis of design unless the design hypothesis can be shown to be just as implausible as its rivals. I’ll leave it up to you to present any such objections.

Prove me that Randomness exists.

Randomness = An event that isn't determined by anything neither determines anything.



"Because we exist" and "our minds affect matter" (whatever that means) is zero evidence for the universe being fine tuned.

It is your blind assertion that those qualities mean something significant.

I already said what it means

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

The double slip experiement doesn't mean that the Universe is Fine Tuned.

Please don't change the subject and disprove the Fine Tuning of the Universe for intelligent life. Stop doing circles.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1112/1112.4647v1.pdf
 
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JimFit

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And if things were different, things would be different. Who would have thought, ey?

You didn't offered any arguments to support that the Fine Tuning doesn't exist. The anthropic principle ISN'T AN ARGUMENT! If things were different we wouldn't be here to discuss it, okay, then? It was due to chance physical necessity or design? Or Luck? Prove that the rest can account for our existence and i will announce myself a random cosmic mistake like yourself today!
 
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JimFit

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You are putting words in atheists' mouths. No atheist that I have ever heard of has attributed our existence to some metaphysical form of "luck".

Source?
eudaimonia,

Mark

When someone claims that our existence doesn't need an explanation because if it were different we wouldn't be here he is beginning the question and implies luck.
 
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Eudaimonist

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When someone claims that our existence doesn't need an explanation because if it were different we wouldn't be here he is beginning the question and implies luck.

Well, no. Not really.

At no point would one be making an appeal to a metaphysical force of "luck". Sometimes rare events simply do happen. There is nothing more to it than that.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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JimFit

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Well, no. Not really.

At no point would one be making an appeal to a metaphysical force of "luck". Sometimes rare events simply do happen. There is nothing more to it than that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Rare events are nothing more than physical necessity, i already disproved that physical necessity can account for the creation of the Physical world because by definition the physical world began! There was nothing physical before! You clearly make the lottery fallacy which i disproved many times, the lottery machine draws a rare combination of numbers NOT LETTERS NOT HIEROGLYPHICS!
 
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Eudaimonist

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Rare events are nothing more than physical necessity, i already disproved that physical necessity can account for the creation of the Physical world because by definition the physical world began!

You overestimate what you have accomplished. You haven't disproved anything.

But I wasn't referring to the existence of physical reality. There is no "before" that since time is an aspect of that, so it is pointless to talk about that coming into existence. I mean later development.

Even if the physical constants of spacetime are permanently fixed, we can still talk about being "lucky" in a completely non-metaphysical way. We are simply fortunate (that is, benefited) that those constants exist as they do and not as something else. Perhaps there is no actual randomness involved and no other universes were ever possible, but that hardly matters. No purpose is required. What we should do is simply accept reality as our starting point and learn from there.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Kylie

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Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?

PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!





The Anthropic Principle doesn't solve the Fine Tuning, sorry.

Luck is the random fluctuations of events that can operate in your favour or against your favour.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?

You can't know what an atheist believes if all you have to go on is the word "atheist", which literally is a label that only represents what that person does NOT believe.

PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!

/points at random person who had the luck to win the lottery.

Also: I don't need to "prove" statements I never made.


The Anthropic Principle doesn't solve the Fine Tuning, sorry.

One doesn't need solutions to fallacious ideas and loaded statements.
One only needs to realise the fallacies and then the imaginary "problems" go away.
 
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