the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[bbbbbbb]

No... You can conclude that I really don't care... All I really said was that he/she was wrong, I could care less whether "you" believe me.... And I could care even less about proving it to you.

I have not expressed any opinion as to whether or not I think you care nor whether or not I believe you.

I did ask you some questions which you failed to address. I sometimes despair that you will ever answer my direct questions.

 

[joneysd]

i would very much doubt they ever will...

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by joneysd View Post
Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Nobody attributed Grace to the devil. "Salvation by grace alone was originated by Satan (p.206)."

You left out the "alone" part.

Grace is the factor that enables salvation, nothing else. Nothing we do has salvific properties. In that sense, Grace alone is correct. Yet there are many stipulations that Christ Jesus has named before He will extend that Grace to us. And it does not negate the free nature of His Grace. So in terms of the overall requirements, Grace is not alone.

One example is that we must forgive one another of trespasses, if we are to be forgiven of our sins against God. If anyone teaches that His Grace will be applied to us without our obedience to His stipulations, it is a lie. Lies are of the devil. Obedience is what develops our faith, and faith is required for Grace It does not necessarily mean that all those who may be deceived and may believe and teach this lie are devilish. Time will tell in the long run.
hang on your own prophet said the blood can only cleanse if you keep the commandments, the lds add temple marriages, plural wives and all sorts of other things to salvation...
You are changing the subject. What you said, and how I replied holds true in 1810, before we had a prophet and temple marriage, etc.

You are changing the subject. What you said, and how I replied holds true in 1810, before we had a prophet and temple marriage, etc.

you seem to have missed this one! Perhaps you have too many branding irons in the fire?

 

[joneysd]

you seem to have missed this one! Perhaps you have too many branding irons in the fire?

what rules did Jesus say there were before he will extend his Grace to us??

if the Grace is free, how can there be rules set, Grace is God's undeserved fvour, if we have to do something to deserve it, it cannot be Grace...

 

[Theway]

I have not expressed any opinion as to whether or not I think you care nor whether or not I believe you.

Really???
Then who was it who posted this?

Well, well, well. The OP has now been confirmed as quoting directly from Mr. Kimball's book, yet you said that he was not quoted. If you wish, please provide the real quote.

As you notice, it appears as though you took his statement as having been "confirmed" with nothing more than a, Nuh-uh! from Joneysd. This by default would then make my statement false.

I did ask you some questions which you failed to address. I sometimes despair that you will ever answer my direct questions.

I answer questions based on whether I feel like answering them, or if I think it will be entertaining to do so. However honestly, I don't recall you asking a question anyway. I do recall you demanding proof out of me which you didn't bother asking for from the person who wrote the OP.

 

[joneysd]

are you still denying kimball wrote the book...

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really???
Then who was it who posted this?

As you notice, it appears as though you took his statement as having been "confirmed" with nothing more than a, Nuh-uh! from Joneysd. This by default would then make my statement false.
I answer questions based on whether I feel like answering them, or if I think it will be entertaining to do so. However honestly, I don't recall you asking a question anyway. I do recall you demanding proof out of me which you didn't bother asking for from the person who wrote the OP.

Thank you for confirming my previous post.

I did ask you for the real quote from Mr. Kimball which you clearly stated existed in your first post on this thread. You stated that the OP was a false statement attributed to Mr. Kimball, but not the real statement.

I am patiently awaiting the real quote so this discussion can proceed on a factual basis. Without the "real quote" I am left with the OP which you clearly disagree with.

 

[Theway]

Thank you for confirming my previous post.

I did ask you for the real quote from Mr. Kimball which you clearly stated existed in your first post on this thread. You stated that the OP was a false statement attributed to Mr. Kimball, but not the real statement.

Ah... You asked for a quote only after I took the time to answer several questions and concerns of yours... When it became apparent that you ignored my answers and merely used my post as a springboard to ask yet another question in order to try and find a flaw in my argument, that's when I lost interest, recognizing the futility of conversations with you, because you could care less about the truth or even answers you might disagree with.

I am patiently awaiting the real quote so this discussion can proceed on a factual basis. Without the "real quote" I am left with the OP which you clearly disagree with.

No... What you are left with is my word, or joneysd's word. It's apparent you already made up your mind a long time ago when you implied that he had proved his case without any proof from either of us.
So if you want to know the truth and who is telling the truth, then simply go to the page number to Kimball's book listed in the OP. It's real easy as there are numerous free downloads of it on the internet.... However like the Israelites of old, you will not, because of the ease of it.

 

[MormonFriend]

what rules did Jesus say there were before he will extend his Grace to us??

if the Grace is free, how can there be rules set, Grace is God's undeserved fvour, if we have to do something to deserve it, it cannot be Grace...

Who said we deserve it because we obey His commandments (aka: rules)? I gave one example, but there are many. Can we be saved if we do not forgive others for their trespasses against us? Can we enter heaven if we do not become like a little child?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I couldn't agree more...


James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This was your first post on the thread. You clearly stated that "I couldn't agree more..." with the OP's quotation by Mr. Kimball, yet it appears now that you couldn't agree less. Why the change?

 

[RevelationTestament]

This was your first post on the thread. You clearly stated that "I couldn't agree more..." with the OP's quotation by Mr. Kimball, yet it appears now that you couldn't agree less. Why the change?

As just a casual reader of this thread it is easy to see that you are merely trying to twist a word to your interpretation.
The phrase TheWay agreed with was that the doctrine that "we are saved by grace alone is of the Devil" which Joneysd somehow turned into: "Grace is a gift from God why would any prophet attribute Grace to the devil..."
To the most casual reader it is easy to see this is not the same thing. The modern churches which discount the need for repentance, baptism, etc are to use your word interpreting another verse as being "hyper-literal." The problem with the "grace alone" stance is that it does not take into account the myriad other verses including the very words of Christ that salvation and forgiveness and hence His grace come through our efforts to change. The "grace alone" stance is taking the same stance as the pharisees of old - that if we sacrifice this animal we are saved. It says if we say these magic words "I believe in you and your grace Jesus, forgive me" we are saved - Don't need to have a contrite or truly repentant heart - Don't need to be willing to follow His commandments, etc. It is simply substituting saying the magic words for performing the magic sacrifice - it is phariseeism of a new stripe. The world needs to wake up already and use some common sense. We cannot take one phrase so literally to the exclusion of the host of other verses and commandments on the subject.

 

[Der Alte]

As just a casual reader of this thread it is easy to see that you are merely trying to twist a word to your interpretation.
The phrase TheWay agreed with was that the doctrine that "we are saved by grace alone is of the Devil" which Joneysd somehow turned into: "Grace is a gift from God why would any prophet attribute Grace to the devil..."
To the most casual reader it is easy to see this is not the same thing. The modern churches which discount the need for repentance, baptism, etc are to use your word interpreting another verse as being "hyper-literal." The problem with the "grace alone" stance is that it does not take into account the myriad other verses including the very words of Christ that salvation and forgiveness and hence His grace come through our efforts to change. The "grace alone" stance is taking the same stance as the pharisees of old - that if we sacrifice this animal we are saved. It says if we say these magic words "I believe in you and your grace Jesus, forgive me" we are saved - Don't need to have a contrite or truly repentant heart - Don't need to be willing to follow His commandments, etc. [Deliberate misrepresentation! No church teaches this DA] It is simply substituting saying the magic words for performing the magic sacrifice - it is phariseeism of a new stripe. The world needs to wake up already and use some common sense. We cannot take one phrase so literally to the exclusion of the host of other verses and commandments on the subject.

All nonsense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to earn any part of salvation.

 

[Theway]

This was your first post on the thread. You clearly stated that "I couldn't agree more..." with the OP's quotation by Mr. Kimball, yet it appears now that you couldn't agree less. Why the change?

Once again...
I stated and explained at length that I agreed with the concept that Grace Alone was from the Devil, and I also responded to your question that I saw little difference between Grace Alone and Faith Alone as it was described in Kimball's book.

It was only after you stated that the OP said nothing about Faith Alone did I point out that the statement in the OP did not come from Kimball's book, but was a Critic's twisting of his words from his book to make it into into something it was not. The real quote specifically stated that he was talking about "Faith Alone"
Having been at this for over ten years I recognize the real source of every argument you guys copy off of AntiMormon sites better than you do.... I even listed the AntiMormon site that the OP originated from.
I am always three steps ahead of any argument you cut and paste here; just like I was able to know that you were trying to set up a BY quote in another thread, so I was able to steal your thunder.
I also recognize the different tactics of the Critics of our Church, and I know the best way to deal with each one. With some, it is best to let them keep posting their faulty, childish, and logically flawed arguments, as they do nothing to hurt the LDS and are loads of entertainment for all. With posters like you, it is best to just jump off you merry-go-round ride of never ending questions, otherwise you will find that you have wasted days of your life just to end up back where you started... And bored....

 

[bbbbbbb]

Once again...
I stated and explained at length that I agreed with the concept that Grace Alone was from the Devil, and I also responded to your question that I saw little difference between Grace Alone and Faith Alone as it was described in Kimball's book.

It was only after you stated that the OP said nothing about Faith Alone did I point out that the statement in the OP did not come from Kimball's book, but was a Critic's twisting of his words from his book to make it into into something it was not. The real quote specifically stated that he was talking about "Faith Alone"
Having been at this for over ten years I recognize the real source of every argument you guys copy off of AntiMormon sites better than you do.... I even listed the AntiMormon site that the OP originated from.
I am always three steps ahead of any argument you cut and paste here; just like I was able to know that you were trying to set up a BY quote in another thread, so I was able to steal your thunder.
I also recognize the different tactics of the Critics of our Church, and I know the best way to deal with each one. With some, it is best to let them keep posting their faulty, childish, and logically flawed arguments, as they do nothing to hurt the LDS and are loads of entertainment for all. With posters like you, it is best to just jump off you merry-go-round ride of never ending questions, otherwise you will find that you have wasted days of your life just to end up back where you started... And bored....

And how do we actually know what the "real quote" specifically said?

 

[Theway]

All nonsense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to earn any part of salvation.

So what you are saying is that one is saved without repentance?


As you can see bbbbbbb I posted this question knowing beforehand that Der Alter is the type of Critic who will not respond, because he will never get involved with anything that he can not argue and control from within the safe harbor he has created for himself. He only likes to showcase to how much he knows about the languages of the Bible even if it helps the LDS, or even if he has to use an Atheist as a source. It is nice to know about the Bible... However he completely misses the message within it.

Although because I said he would not respond, maybe he will this time in order to try and prove me wrong

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what you are saying is that one is saved without repentance?

As you can see bbbbbbb I posted this question knowing beforehand that Der Alter is the type of Critic who will not respond, because he will never get involved with anything that he can not argue and control from within the safe harbor he has created for himself. He only likes to showcase to how much he knows about the languages of the Bible even if it helps the LDS, or even if he has to use an Atheist as a source. It is nice to know about the Bible... However he completely misses the message within it.

Although because I said he would not respond, maybe he will this time in order to try and prove me wrong

Oddly enough, I am not interested in your understanding of der Alter. I only wish to know what the "real quotation" actually said. It seems to be an impossibility for you to provide the quotation, leaving this discussion at an impasse.

 

[Theway]

And how do we actually know what the "real quote" specifically said?

do you now see what I mean....
I already posted how you can know, but you couldn't help yourself from turning it into yet another question.
I even posted the real quote... Look how futile that was also. Two days from now we will still be right here... At the beginning, just as I predicted.

 

[RevelationTestament]

All nonsense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to earn any part of salvation.

I didn't say that. Is repenting earning salvation? Is having a humble heart earning salvation? Is forgiving others earning salvation? Is getting baptized earning salvation? None of these things "earn salvation" which cannot be earned. That does not mean that it does not have some prerequisites like being truly humble and repentant. For you to discount that means you believe in the phariseeism of the magic words which Jesus Himself showed was the wrong attitude when He said "21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[MormonFriend]

All nonsense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to earn any part of salvation.

What makes obedience a form of earning?
Heb. 5:9 tells us obedience is a must, yet it is true we do not earn what we cannot pay for by any of our resources.

 

[joneysd]

Who said we deserve it because we obey His commandments (aka: rules)? I gave one example, but there are many. Can we be saved if we do not forgive others for their trespasses against us? Can we enter heaven if we do not become like a little child?

Grace is undeserved favour, that's the whole idea...

i missed your example, please list all the thing we need to do to accept the Grace of God..