Where did the Church drift off course?

[pat34lee]

And who is vouching for the character of those who are starting new religious movements today?

One difference between Smith's cult and messianics is that most messianics do not come from the same place or listen to the same teachers. Some of the messianic teachers will be proven false, as with any religion. Unlike some think though, no one person or group started messianism, and it will go on whether or not any teacher is true.

 

[AbbaLove]

And who is vouching for the character of those who are starting new religious movements today?

Certainly you aren't including the recent Messianic Judaism Movement.

Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology. Messianic Judaism generally holds that Jesus is both the Jewish Messiah and "God the Son" (one person of the Trinity), though some within the movement do not hold to Trinitarian beliefs. With few exceptions, both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are believed to be authoritative and divinely inspired scripture.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Certainly you aren't including the recent Messianic Judaism Movement.

Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology. Messianic Judaism generally holds that Jesus is both the Jewish Messiah and "God the Son" (one person of the Trinity), though some within the movement do not hold to Trinitarian beliefs. With few exceptions, both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are believed to be authoritative and divinely inspired scripture.

Even Mormonism and Seventh-Day Adventism got their starts in the 1800's. Are you suggesting that Messianic Judaism is not a modern invention? Where is the chain of its antiquity? Can you prove that what it teaches today is the same thing that it attempts to "reconnect" with from the first Century? As far as I'm concerned, it is the very definition of a newly-fashioned modern religious movement.

 

[visionary]

Someone had to connect the dots and show the way back to the start. Someone had to prepare the way of the Lord's Way, Truth, and Life. So what if the call went out and many heard the call and said "here am I, send me" This message is too big for one person. The Messianic Movement will continue to the end. May it continue to be inspired by God and continue to reveal the truth to the world, so that all can stand before God without excuse.

 

[pat34lee]

Even Mormonism and Seventh-Day Adventism got their starts in the 1800's. Are you suggesting that Messianic Judaism is not a modern invention? Where is the chain of its antiquity? Can you prove that what it teaches today is the same thing that it attempts to "reconnect" with from the first Century? As far as I'm concerned, it is the very definition of a newly-fashioned modern religious movement.

Can you deny that there have always been some believers who know the Hebrew scriptures, follow the Torah and believe in Yeshua? There is always a remnant.

 

[annier]

?? Americanism (what does that even mean???), Individualism and Libertarianism have at best marginally minimal influence.

The inclusion and indoctrination of Pagan rituals, holiday's and practices have corrupted the body...

BukiRob, this is out of context to the scriptures, as well as the historical Church. What pagan rituals do you refer to here that the church has indoctrinated into? Historically the church has been a priesthood of liturgical rituals. Most, if not all, follow the liturgical services of the levitical services. Where is all this pagan liturgy of which you speak?

 

[AbbaLove]

Can you prove that what it teaches today is the same thing that it (Messianic Judaism) attempts to "reconnect" with from the first Century? As far as I'm concerned, it is the very definition of a newly-fashioned modern religious movement.

Can you disprove "that the attempts to 'reconnect' with the first Century" are not promoted by MJs whose objective is to open the eyes of their Jewish brothers and sisters to their Messiah, Yeshua HaMashiach, as well as affecting those aspects of lukewarm Christianity.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6
4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.…

Luke 10:26-28
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

 

[BukiRob]

BukiRob, this is out of context to the scriptures, as well as the historical Church. What pagan rituals do you refer to here that the church has indoctrinated into? Historically the church has been a priesthood of liturgical rituals. Most, if not all, follow the liturgical services of the levitical services. Where is all this pagan liturgy of which you speak?

Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Lent... shall I go on? The worship of Mary...

 

[ContraMundum]

?? Americanism (what does that even mean???), Individualism and Libertarianism have at best marginally minimal influence.

Hardly. One doesn't have to look too hard to work out that every major Bible cult in the world started in the USA- and individualism is at the core. Self-idolatry says "I am my own boss" and that manifests in the Faith exactly as pointed out in the Epistles- men following their own thoughts, fancies, bellies, and who reject authority.

The inclusion and indoctrination of Pagan rituals, holiday's.

Are you talking about the Torah here?
Because the Torah has more of that than the NT.

.. so much so, that the majority of "believers" Follow a Babylonian Jesus. One that rejects the idea that he is the Messiah of ISRAEL and rejects the Hebrew scriptures as "not for today's follower of "Jesus"

Where do you get this stuff?

 

[ContraMundum]

Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Lent... shall I go on? The worship of Mary...

Not this old junk again....*sigh*

 

[ContraMundum]

Even Mormonism and Seventh-Day Adventism got their starts in the 1800's. Are you suggesting that Messianic Judaism is not a modern invention? Where is the chain of its antiquity? Can you prove that what it teaches today is the same thing that it attempts to "reconnect" with from the first Century? As far as I'm concerned, it is the very definition of a newly-fashioned modern religious movement.

A lot of people are saying that very same thing I have noticed of late. The problem is that some of the leadership of the MJ movement in the US are religious cranks and phonies- the lunatics run the asylum, so to speak.

I'm not as negative on the MJ movement as some though...but I hardly think it is going to change the world. With all the confusion coming out of religion in the US it's just another alternative on the fattened, decadent consumer driven religious smorgasbord. It will and does have both honest adherents and crack-pots. Both post here.

 

[ErezY]

Even Mormonism and Seventh-Day Adventism got their starts in the 1800's. Are you suggesting that Messianic Judaism is not a modern invention? Where is the chain of its antiquity? Can you prove that what it teaches today is the same thing that it attempts to "reconnect" with from the first Century? As far as I'm concerned, it is the very definition of a newly-fashioned modern religious movement.

One could also say the same about conservative Judaism.

a modern stream of Ashkenazi Judaism that arose out of intellectual currents in Germany in the mid-19th century and took institutional form in the United States in the early 1900s.

 

[ErezY]

A lot of people are saying that very same thing I have noticed of late. The problem is that some of the leadership of the MJ movement in the US are religious cranks and phonies- the lunatics run the asylum, so to speak.

I'm not as negative on the MJ movement as some though...but I hardly think it is going to change the world. With all the confusion coming out of religion in the US it's just another alternative on the fattened, decadent consumer driven religious smorgasbord. It will and does have both honest adherents and crack-pots. Both post here.

In my opinion the real blossoming of Messianic Judaism will not be from the US. It will be from within Israel itself. Messianic Judaism and Messianic Jews have been around for centuries and are promised to be the final outcome of the state of Israel. The true growth spurt will occur from within Israel, not the nations. I believe soon Israel will embrace all forms of Judaism and stop the infighting. Soon this argument of who is a Jew will fall away and the real issue will remain. Do you love the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob or not? Do you stand with Israel or not. I believe the safe haven in the US for Jews is quickly coming to a close. Then where will the majority of the world Jewish population go? New Zealand?

 

[ContraMundum]

In my opinion the real blossoming of Messianic Judaism will not be from the US. It will be from within Israel itself.

Agreed!

 

[Hebraic]

I am not sure that I can agree with line of thought about the Messianc movement. What some people do not fully understand is the US has many descendants of the Israelites and a good portion of the Judahites and their companions. Regardless of that fact, the US is headed for a punishing time that has never been seen on this land, but a remnant shall escape. Here is what the Bible says in Isaiah 2:3

And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Also read Micah 4:2.

So what is Zion? What is Jerusalem?

 

[annier]

Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, Lent... shall I go on?

Good Friday is not a liturgy, and neither are the other things you mention. They are dates

The worship of Mary...

The historic Church had no worship of Mary, either. The Orthodox do not.

 

[AbbaLove]

A lot of people are saying that very same thing I have noticed of late. The problem is that some of the leadership of the MJ movement in the US are religious cranks and phonies- the lunatics run the asylum, so to speak.

I'm not as negative on the MJ movement as some though...but I hardly think it is going to change the world. With all the confusion coming out of religion in the US it's just another alternative on the fattened, decadent consumer driven religious smorgasbord. It will and does have both honest adherents and crack-pots. Both post here.

Man's religious beliefs, no matter how well-intentioned/inspired to begin with, are all for naught without the continued empowering and indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in a congregation of believers. Without the evidence of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit (especially LOVE), as well as the manifestation of the Supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit ... man's religious attempts become a "noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." Just look at all the so-called "faith" icons at CF and now the same thing seems to be repeating itself within Messianic Judaism.

1 Cor 13:1-10 AMP
1 If I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
3 Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing.
4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

Romans 13:8-10 AMP
8 Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one’s fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].
9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to one’s neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.

And yet there are those that have a PROBLEM with Paul. My guess it's the same people that have a PROBLEM loving the brethren (and their neighbors) as Christ loves us. You've really got to ask yourself whether or not there are MJ Gentiles that are guilty of Judaizing if they have a PROBLEM with Paul's Epistles to the early Church.

 

[BukiRob]

Not this old junk again....*sigh*

So, you hold that Christmas is NOT a pagan holiday? You actually believe Messiah was born in December????

Its not junk, its truth. Easter is based off a Babylonian pagan infused holiday... the bunny rabbit, is associated with ancient fertility.. the coloring of eggs, the cross shaped buns are Babylonian. The "sunrise service" is directly out of the worship associated with ISHTAR where EASTER comes from the resurrection of one of their gods that they called "Tammuz", who was believed to be the only begotten son of the moon-goddess and the sun-god.

All of this holiday's roots are traced right back to Nimrod.

 

[ErezY]

So, you hold that Christmas is NOT a pagan holiday? You actually believe Messiah was born in December????

Its not junk, its truth. Easter is based off a Babylonian pagan infused holiday... the bunny rabbit, is associated with ancient fertility.. the coloring of eggs, the cross shaped buns are Babylonian. The "sunrise service" is directly out of the worship associated with ISHTAR where EASTER comes from the resurrection of one of their gods that they called "Tammuz", who was believed to be the only begotten son of the moon-goddess and the sun-god.

All of this holiday's roots are traced right back to Nimrod.

Circumcision is recorded as a ritual in the Sumerian and Egyptian texts. You remember Abraham was from the Sumerian culture, and spent years in Egypt before El Shaddai commanded him to do so....... now what?

 

[AbbaLove]

Circumcision is recorded as a ritual in the Sumerian and Egyptian texts. You remember Abraham was from the Sumerian culture, and spent years in Egypt before El Shaddai commanded him to do so....... now what?

So, are you suggesting the early 'church' drifted off course by not circumcising the flesh of Gentile converts?

What better example is there of Judaizing? Is it any wonder some MJs have a problem with some of Paul's writings.