Ministers threatened with jail and thousands in fines for refusing to marry gays

[morningstar2651]

No lie, just FACTS.

Noting that Vylo found it necessary to qualify his argument.

Religious organizations are incorporated as charities.

This "chapel" is a for-profit business.

Therefore, this for-profit business lacks the protections afforded a religious organization.

If you have a problem, then it's with the requirement for religious organizations to be incorporated as charities.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

A pastor can certainly counsel a couple or....a pastor can simply marry a couple. There is no lack of morality in joining a man and woman in the eyes of God...which is the pastors responsibility with or without counseling.

The lack of morality is when someone considers himself/herself to be a "man of God" while they stand before a same-sex couple holding a Holy Bible and "in the eyes of God" believe they sanction a marriage...an abomination! The couple AND the pastor all need counseling.

It is also an abomination for our legal system to FORCE a true man of God to officiate at the marriage of those that are simply slapping God in the face. That is all their "marriage" amounts to!!!

I would certainly agree no pastor should ever be forced to marry anyone he deems to be engaging in a union contrary to that pastor's beliefs.

But if that means he can't advertise a wedding chapel as a for profit business, I don't worry about that very much. Let him find an alternate business. Or perhaps find some alternate ministers to officiate in such cases.

Our church does weddings for the members at no charge. Its not our main business. No homosexual partners have applied but that ceremony will be rejected should they do so. They will be invited to participate in our worship services, of course.

 

[YeShallTread]

Cool. Why don't you start working on that?

Have been...every time I vote I work on that.

 

[KarateCowboy]

So ... should homosexual prostitutes be forced to serve heterosexuals? If they refuse then should they be fined, threatened with jailtime, forced to undergo indoctrination?

 

[Belk]

Noting that the ministers merely filed for injunctive relief to preclude them from being forced to engage in rituals with which they disagree.

They are apparently fine with the rituals since they made a business out of them. Some of the people who might engage in the ritual are apparently objectionable.

 

[YeShallTread]

I would certainly agree no pastor should ever be forced to marry anyone he deems to be engaging in a union contrary to that pastor's beliefs.

Thank you.

But if that means he can't advertise a wedding chapel as a for profit business, I don't worry about that very much. Let him find an alternate business. Or perhaps find some alternate ministers to officiate in such cases.

Or...let the gay couple find an alternate person to officiate. If the minister doesn't force them to abstain from marriage...should they force him to marry them?

Our church does weddings for the members at no charge. Its not our main business. No homosexual partners have applied but that ceremony will be rejected should they do so. They will be invited to participate in our worship services, of course.

Of course. The pews are all filled with sinners and all there (or should be there) to be taught truth.

 

[AirPo]

Noting again that the newly passed ordinance attaches both incarceration and huge monetary fines for non-compliance.

Noting again that the couple has not been fined or threatened.

 

[AirPo]

So ... should homosexual prostitutes be forced to serve heterosexuals? If they refuse then should they be fined, threatened with jailtime, forced to undergo indoctrination?

Should they not refuse they face fines and/or jail time.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Any reason you had a need to point out her age?

The poster in question, has demonstrated, she is one of the most mature, honest and intelligent posters on this board.

I appreciate your kind and thoughtful words. Thank you! My early morning, pre-sunshine and coffee initial reaction wasn't mature, but then I perked up and moved along with the day.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Should they not refuse they face fines and/or jail time.

I'm afraid I don't follow. Are you alluding to laws prohibiting prostitution?

 

[morningstar2651]

So ... should homosexual prostitutes be forced to serve heterosexuals? If they refuse then should they be fined, threatened with jailtime, forced to undergo indoctrination?

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure laws about prostitution force prostitutes to not serve anyone regardless of their orientation.

Maybe this example wasn't the best choice...

 

[KarateCowboy]

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure laws about prostitution force prostitutes to not serve anyone regardless of their orientation.

Maybe this example wasn't the best choice...

I think that depends on where you live.

 

[morningstar2651]

I think that depends on where you live.

Point taken. Not a perfect analogy, but one worth thinking about in the context of legal prostitution. Should a prostitute be allowed to discriminate against customers based on their gender?

 

[YeShallTread]

Any reason you had a need to point out her age?

The poster in question, has demonstrated, she is one of the most mature, honest and intelligent posters on this board.

Sorry, I missed this post. May I ask...is there any reason not to mention her age as it is clearly stated with her avatar? After all, it is nothing to be ashamed of...is it?


As for intelligence in an individual, any individual...it is a wonderful thing and yet is it wisdom, knowledge and understanding?

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.​

Oddly, intelligence isn't mentioned above. God speaks of "wise hearted" people that He fills with wisdom but never, or so I believe, of an intelligent person.

 

[bhsmte]

Sorry, I missed this post. May I ask...is there any reason not to mention her age as it is clearly stated with her avatar? After all, it is nothing to be ashamed of...is it?


As for intelligence in an individual, any individual...it is a wonderful thing and yet is it wisdom, knowledge and understanding?

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.​

Oddly, intelligence isn't mentioned above. God speaks of "wise hearted" people that He fills with wisdom but never, or so I believe, of an intelligent person.

Do you respond to posters with their age with everyone?

 

[YeShallTread]

Do you respond to posters with their age with everyone?

No, just a chosen few. Is it a problem and if yes...why? Is it something to be ashamed of?

 

[bhsmte]

No, just a chosen few. Is it a problem and if yes...why? Is it something to be ashamed of?

Do what you like, I was just curious as to why.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Point taken. Not a perfect analogy, but one worth thinking about in the context of legal prostitution. Should a prostitute be allowed to discriminate against customers based on their gender?

I'm not sure, but I've love to see one cite a religious excuse...

 

[TLK Valentine]

Noting that I have repeatedly stated that government should get completely out of the "marriage business".

Irrelevant to the discussion.

The main reason diverse groups seek marriage is for equality under the law, tax breaks and such. About that, I have absolutely no argument. The government should divorce itself from marriage and the preferential treatment it offers to those who choose to marry.

Again, Irrelevant. We live in the world as it is, not as we think it should be.

As it is, these ministers have taken one of their sacred duties and turned it into a for-profit business -- for their own profit, it should be noted. Now, just about every denomination of every religion frowns upon simony, but I'll let them hash out those details with their God and church.

So far as the topic of the discussion is concerned, as long as they sell a service -- any service -- to the public for profit, they are required to do so in accordance with the laws of the land... including the Civil Rights Act.

 

[TLK Valentine]

As an ordained minister myself, I know that if I were to open a business to the public, I would be required by law to comply with those laws which require me to serve the entire public to the best of my ability.

The Civil Rights Act is one such law. If I am open to the public, I cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, or gender.

Why is this such a difficult concept for certain other ordained ministers and laypeople to understand?